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MH17 and Moscow’s Magical Mystery Jets
The Interpreter Magazine ^ | July 22nd 2014 | Mark Galeotti

Posted on 07/22/2014 8:44:08 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans

MH17 and Moscow’s Magical Mystery Jets

By Mark Galeotti

After a weekend of virtual silence—while elements of the Russian media tried to fill the infospace with all kinds of lurid and rapidly-debunked rumor and conjecture—Monday saw Moscow hit back at the allegations that Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 was shot down by separatist rebels with Russian government assistance. Beyond President Putin’s strangely constrained personal statement (not the body language of a man at all comfortable with the situation), a key element were the “ten questions” posed by Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov, chief of the General Staff’s Main Operations Directorate and Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev, chief of the Air Force Main Staff at a press conference on 21 July.

The overall intent is nakedly to shift blame onto Kiev (and Washington) and to provide the basis for subsequent challenges to the inevitable findings of any serious international enquiry: that MH17 was shot down by a rebel missile (as they themselves have been overheard admitting).

Broadly speaking, the “questions”—all unashamedly leading ones—framing Russia’s implicit defense argument concern three broad questions: the shift in MH17’s flight from its original route; the alleged presence of Ukrainian air defense units in the area, with their radars active; and the alleged presence of Ukrainian military aircraft close to the airliner shortly before and after it had been shot down.

The question of the aircraft’s route has been explained already. The Malaysian government has affirmed that there was no last-minute course change, just a slight deviation necessitated by a thunderstorm to the south and requested by the pilot.

Likewise, the issue of the presence of Ukrainian government air defense systems is something of a red herring, not least given the clear evidence that the separatists had deployed at least one Buk system in the area. Considering the evidence of increasing direct Russian intervention in the conflict—not least cross-border rocket barrages—then it would only be prudent for Kiev to watch its skies. But any attack from where the Russians allege the Ukrainian Buk-M1s were based would have meant the missile would have flown over rebel positions. It is hard to believe that no one would have noticed a large, loud, bright missile streaking through the skies above them.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: mh17; ukrainianairforce
more at link
1 posted on 07/22/2014 8:44:08 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

What’s important now in the fog of propaganda-generation is to create 2, preferably 3 competing stories so that media pundits and miscellaneous folks who nothing can blather endlessly about this incident.


2 posted on 07/22/2014 8:51:39 AM PDT by Attention Surplus Disorder (At no time was the Obama administration aware of what the Obama administration was doing)
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To: Attention Surplus Disorder

YEP — sad but true.


3 posted on 07/22/2014 8:57:48 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/383343/course-russia-has-nonsensical-explanation-mh-17-patrick-brennan

Of Course Russia Has a Nonsensical Explanation For MH 17
By Patrick Brennan

“The problem is that, according to its manufacturer, it’s impossible that the Ukrainian jet, a Sukhoi Su-25, known as a “Frogfoot” in NATO parlance, could have been “at the same level as” the Malaysia Airlines flight. The Malaysian flight was flying at 33,000 feet, while the Su-25 has a service ceiling of about 23,000 feet — when it doesn’t have any weapons loaded. It’s not an interceptor; it’s a ground-attack aircraft. (Conveniently, the Russian official made up a service ceiling for the Su-25 that’s precisely equal to the altitude of MH 17.)

The Su-25 can, as the Russians note, carry air-to-air missiles with a range of more than 10 kilometers, making it physically possible, in theory, for one to have shot down the airliner, but it would have to do so from 10,000 feet — 3 kilometers — below the 777. Moreover, the Su-25 is not exactly a sprinter — its maximum airspeed is just barely more than the 777’s cruising speed. (In part because it can’t fly as high as the 777.) Lastly, bizarrely, as the Aviationist points out, who knows what’s going on with Russian graphics but the graphic above uses a 707 to depict a 777 and a retired American electronic-warfare plane (an EF-111) to depict the much-smaller Su-25..


4 posted on 07/22/2014 9:00:18 AM PDT by Grampa Dave ( Obama's Storm of Illegal immigrants, aka, new democRat voters and his 2016 FDR 3rd term attempt!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Is this what happened:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3183467/posts#6


5 posted on 07/22/2014 9:01:50 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Grampa Dave

Good article, the Interpreter reported on that the other day, though not with that much detail. The Russkies, apparently, with IPs from Moscow, were “upgrading” the Su-25... at least on wikipedia.


6 posted on 07/22/2014 9:02:20 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
There's only one official explanation. Check the calendar:

Passenger planes only explode on July 17th because of sparks in the center fuel tank.

If they had a CIA instead of a KGB, they'd already know this. Like, "duh", hello?

7 posted on 07/22/2014 9:05:23 AM PDT by GBA (Here in the Matrix, life is but a dream.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Ten possible scenarios in which Putin is blameless!

Quick - gotta make 'em all webpage links!

(Then back to admiring Vlad's shirtless photos)

/FR-Putin-Fanboi

8 posted on 07/22/2014 9:08:10 AM PDT by Dagnabitt (Amnesty is Treason. Its agents are Traitors.)
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To: GBA

Not just that but people who have visions of surface to air missiles before such explosions disappear.


9 posted on 07/22/2014 9:12:12 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Attention Surplus Disorder
This is a perfect model to study the forensics of how the 9-11 conspiracy theories evolved.

My recollection is the origins started in france and the Bush haters grabbed and spread the rumors because it fit their agenda.

10 posted on 07/22/2014 9:17:52 AM PDT by pfflier
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.[1] This attack ranks seventh among the deadliest disasters in aviation history, tenth if including the 9/11 attacks, which includes ground casualties; the incident retains the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Persian Gulf and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus aircraft anywhere in the world.[2] The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.

According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.

According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14A Tomcat fighter, a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force. The Iranian F-14's at that time had no anti-ship capability.

The US Navy had claimed that the Vincennes was defending itself in international waters at the time of the incident. Later disclosures would prove that the Vincennes had entered into Iranian waters and initiated hostilities. This was a key fact that was left out of the public inquiry led by Admiral Fogarty.

The event generated a great deal of controversy and criticism of the United States. Some analysts have blamed U.S. military commanders and the captain of Vincennes for reckless and aggressive behavior in a tense and dangerous environment.

As of 1993, the United States had not apologized to Iran.[8] In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice, including an apology in the form of "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the Loss of lives caused by the incident...".[9] As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

Iran Air still uses flight number IR655 on the Tehran–Dubai route as a memorial to the victims.

So was Dutch responsible for that shoot down?

11 posted on 07/22/2014 9:38:36 AM PDT by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Funny thing is that I trust Moscow more these days than I do Washington DC.


12 posted on 07/22/2014 9:39:32 AM PDT by JohnKinAK
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To: JohnKinAK

Do you trust Moscow more than you trust Australia and Tony Abbot —

Tony Abbott says MH17 aftermath is evidence tampering on industrial scale

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3183455/posts


13 posted on 07/22/2014 9:57:57 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

There is a really easy way to put all of the conspiracy theories to rest.

Release the US Satellite data for both the intel coverage and the launch data, as well as the ATC radar tapes.

Why it hasn’t been done yet is fueling the conspiracies, and raising questions.


14 posted on 07/22/2014 10:07:19 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Uncle Chip

I don’t know Abbott, or the evidence his opinion is based on. I do know that almost immediately there was a narrative with little supporting evidence demonizing Russia. A youtube and twitter are not evidence. Again, why would Russia supply the Rebels with sophisticated SAMs but not supply secure communications. I don’t know what happened but Youtube and twitter is not evidence. Remember the Benghazi Youtube video, and the faked conversation during the Syrian chemical weapons attack? I mean there is a precedence of deception from DC. I also know that Western Intelligence services overthrew the legitimately elected Ukrainian Govt when they (the Ukrainian Govt) voted to not sign on to the EU; and installed their own friendly Govt that immediately reversed course favorable to the EU’s central bankers.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1


15 posted on 07/22/2014 10:09:32 AM PDT by JohnKinAK
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To: JohnKinAK
I don’t know Abbott, or the evidence his opinion is based on.

It's based on evidence that a whole lot of people have witnessed and some of it hard evidence.

16 posted on 07/22/2014 10:13:19 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

BOL! “Good article, the Interpreter reported on that the other day, though not with that much detail. The Russkies, apparently, with IPs from Moscow, were “upgrading” the Su-25... at least on wikipedia.”


17 posted on 07/22/2014 10:18:33 AM PDT by Grampa Dave ( Obama's Storm of Illegal immigrants, aka, new democRat voters and his 2016 FDR 3rd term attempt!)
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To: JohnKinAK

The rebels did indeed have a BUK-M1, it was taken in Donetsk when the rebels over-ran an AA regiment in late July. There are many questions about it actually being serviceable or not, and Kiev denied that it even existed, for several weeks.

Which makes this all the more problematic. Kiev has both claimed the Buk’s don’t exist, and now that they do.

As far as the Rebels comms, they mainly consist of old CB Radios, and cell phones that use Zello, a walkie-talkie ap.

Kiev also has BUK’s in the Southeast, the more updated version, that they are using to provide air cover for their ATO HQ. There are several videos of these on youtube.


18 posted on 07/22/2014 10:21:59 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Putin is spreading abject propoganda.

Some of the theories they are putting forth (like it is actually MH370, or that a land attack aircraft like a Ukrainian SU-25 shot it down, or that Ukraine intentionally shot it down) are way out there in tin foil land.

The facts though are these:

The Russians have this surface to air missile system. The Ukranians have this same missile system from their days as a part of the Soviet Union.

It is a capable system that can certainly down high flying airliners.

Did the Russians put one of their systems in eastern Ukraine for the separatists/rebels to use? Very possible.

Did the separatists/rebels capture a Ukrainian system and use it? Also possible.

Remember, many eastern Ukrainian citizens are also verterans of the Urkainian military. They could find people who know how to operate the Ukrainian missiles.

So, we do not know which of the systems the separatists/rebels used...but it was certainly that type of SA-11 surface to air missile system that downed the aircraft.

Another very important fact...IMHO, the major responsibility for this horrible disaster has to fall on Malaysian Airlines.

They should never have flown such an aircraft over eastern Ukraine which everyone knows is embroiled in a civil war.

A civil war where the nation divided has the capability to down such aircraft (which means the separatists/rebels could have gotten it), and where the principle supporter of the separatists/rebels (Russia), also has the capability down such aircraft (which also means the separatists/rebels could have gotten it from them).

Crazy to the point of criminal nelgigence IMHO to fly that defenseless aircraft with all of those people on board over such an area.

This doe not absolve the separatists/rebels of all responsibility. But it does place the real owness where it belongs.

I do not believe thr separatists/rebels meant to shoot down a civilian airliner. I think they thought it was a cargo aircraft or, more likely, a surveillance aircraft, from Ukraine. So they shot it down. They are at war.

Probably did not have the proper capabilities to identify or communicate with and discriminate a civilan airliner transponder from a military IFF.

Anyhow, Putin has got thr Russian people behind him, and they are very good at using emotion and nationalistic fervor to gen up support of even some of these crasy theories.

For our part, we have a President who is dedicated to weakening America at every level.

He is not crazy. He is not imcompetant. He is doing exaclty as he has planned all along and using every opportunity to advance that cause.

When you understand this about the man...the rest all falls into place.

It is true that he is not engaged in what you or I would typically expect a US President and Commander in Chief to do.

But he never planned to do that. What he is engaged in is making the United States of America weaker across the board.

Economically
Internationally
Morally
Militarily
Energy wise
Soverignty wise (ie the border)
Traditionally
Educationally
Health wise

In every pssible way imaginable.

And..sadly, tragically...he is being VERY effective at it.


19 posted on 07/22/2014 10:32:59 AM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
The Malaysian government has affirmed that there was no last-minute course change, just a slight deviation necessitated by a thunderstorm to the south and requested by the pilot.

So a course change is now not a course change. How Orwellian.

20 posted on 07/22/2014 10:45:50 AM PDT by justa-hairyape (The user name is sarcastic. Although at times it may not appear that way.)
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To: Jeff Head
"I do not believe the separatists/rebels meant to shoot down a civilian airliner. I think they thought it was a cargo aircraft or, more likely, a surveillance aircraft, from Ukraine. So they shot it down. They are at war."

Yes, almost certainly. Stuff happens. See post Number 11. It took us 8 years to come almost clean on a remarkably similar incident.

21 posted on 07/22/2014 10:53:38 AM PDT by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: tcrlaf
Why it hasn’t been done yet is fueling the conspiracies, and raising questions.

What's fueling conspiracies are pathological liars working for the Russkies, like you.

22 posted on 07/22/2014 1:20:51 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Jeff Head

P.S. Occam’s Razor almost certainly applies.


23 posted on 07/22/2014 1:23:57 PM PDT by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: Jeff Head
Another very important fact...IMHO, the major responsibility for this horrible disaster has to fall on Malaysian Airlines.

It was flying at 33,000 feet, making it unreachable to anything but the most advanced systems, which not just anybody can use. Furthermore, it was not the only airline using that airspace. If it was going to get shot down, it would have to be as a result of the actions of a state, like Russia.

Did the Russians put one of their systems in eastern Ukraine for the separatists/rebels to use? Very possible.

NATO already spotted these systems on both sides of the border, along with training going on, which they characterized as Russian officers training "separatists."

Furthermore, they were photographed entering into Ukraine.

Did the separatists/rebels capture a Ukrainian system and use it? Also possible.

That's what they claimed originally, before they went back and deleted their claims, that they had, in fact, captured such a system from the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians however say they are't missing any, and, number two, it is common practice for the Russkies to claim they captured something before sending it in. The only media source that originated the story that carried news of the "capture" was a single Russian news source, with no other sources independently reporting on it.

24 posted on 07/22/2014 1:27:35 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: GBA

I forgot about the July 17th computer glitch.


25 posted on 07/22/2014 1:32:41 PM PDT by McGruff (There are none so blind as those who will not see)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“What’s fueling conspiracies are pathological liars working for the Russkies, like you.”

Yet ANOTHER ad hominem attack from you? How unsurprising....

Why don’t YOU tell the class why our Sat and Intel, as well as the ATC radar tapes haven’t been released.


26 posted on 07/22/2014 1:36:29 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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