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As number of law school grads rises in Florida, demand drops
Miami Herald ^ | July 27. 2014 | SUSAN TAYLOR MARTIN

Posted on 07/27/2014 4:04:01 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife

Ask Jason Fraser how many jobs he applied for after graduating from a St. Petersburg law school last year and this is what he says:

“Maybe 10 or 20 when it was some place I wanted to work. Maybe 50 when I started getting desperate.’’

After searching as far afield as Ocala and Miami, Fraser finally landed a public defender’s post in Pasco County in June. But his months of job-hunting raises another question, one that nags at many in the legal profession:

Does Florida have too many lawyers?

Since 2000, the number of licensed attorneys has swollen from 60,900 to 96,511. In the same period, five new law schools have opened, cranking out even more lawyers to join those bemoaning the diminished rewards of their chosen career.

“Now it seems you work harder to make half of what you did in 1998,’’ said Angela Wright, a Tampa criminal defense lawyer. “The economy is a reason but also the fact there are a whole lot more attorneys.’’........

(Excerpt) Read more at miamiherald.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: attorneys; lawyers; personalinjury; suethebastards

1 posted on 07/27/2014 4:04:02 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Too many lawyers. That is why I chose to not go to law school.


2 posted on 07/27/2014 4:06:23 AM PDT by 3Fingas (Sons and Daughters for Freedom and Rededication to the Principles of the U.S. Constitution)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

All you see on daytime TV are ads from lawyers about bankruptcies, SSDI applications, lawsuits on drug or medical device use, accidents with trucks, assaults in apartment complexes, workers compensation claims, auto accident claims - you name it. Filled to the gills with lawyers.


3 posted on 07/27/2014 4:07:58 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Supply & demand works? Who knew?


4 posted on 07/27/2014 4:15:15 AM PDT by Graybeard58 ( A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things. Eccl 10,v 19)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

I’ve seen this first hand with a relative - not in Florida, but in Ohio. She finally got a job with an natural gas energy company where she verifies the ownership of the leased land. It’s contract work, but she makes enough to live and make a dent in the loans. Most importantly, it’s experience that should lead to something more long term.


5 posted on 07/27/2014 4:26:31 AM PDT by randita ("Is a nation without borders a nation?"...Noonan)
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To: Graybeard58
Even orporate customers are not only questioning why 50 associates are on a conference call, when all that is required is one attorney and a paralegal, but demanding that they are only billed for one attorney and the paralegal.

A couple of years ago, I saw a blurb about the UCal system adding yet another law school, when the economics of the legal profession were already consolidating.

The "education" system has its own reality.

6 posted on 07/27/2014 4:27:31 AM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Graybeard58

now lets make it happen with doctors


7 posted on 07/27/2014 4:27:35 AM PDT by scottteng (Suntrust Bank is the worlds worst stay away!)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

The big firms outsource the grunt work to India.


8 posted on 07/27/2014 4:32:38 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

“Does Florida have too many lawyers?”

Yes and so does the rest of the country. Like the phone
companies caller ID block, block unblock and block unblock
block. The lawyers in this country are the worlds worst at
creating a demand and filling it. There are no telling how
many laws out there that were passed and put into place just
to employ lawyers. The old saying “a man who represents
himself has a fool for a client” the laws are so ambiguous and
the courts so bureaucratic that an innocent man can
get convicted simply for not having the proper paperwork
to present evidence in his defense.

Also I think that being a lawyer and a politician is a
conflict of interest. What does a lawyer know about energy,
agriculture, education and health when all they are taught
is bureaucratic navigation. Not to mention tort.

There are a lot of problems in this country that are
crated by the saturation of the field. The more lawyers
the more laws. They are going to have to do something
to continue getting those high fees. Maybe they will do
like they did with Obamacare, make it a mandate to
keep a lawyer on retainer.


9 posted on 07/27/2014 4:33:01 AM PDT by Slambat
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To: Graybeard58

“Supply & demand works? Who knew?”

Especially when you get to create the demand and fill it.


10 posted on 07/27/2014 4:34:23 AM PDT by Slambat
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To: Gaffer

Sounds like Obama wants to hire truckloads of immigration lawyers. Just what we need.


11 posted on 07/27/2014 4:40:36 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: rbg81

I hadn’t connected the two, but for him it would be killing two birds with one stone. Hire worthless grads, entrench illegals in our legal system.


12 posted on 07/27/2014 4:42:07 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

According to NCEES, there are only about 22,000 Professional Engineers in Florida, with an additional 15,000 who live out of state. When your lawyers greatly outnumber the engineers, is this a good thing or a bad thing?


13 posted on 07/27/2014 5:00:08 AM PDT by BRK
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Did You Know?

The Current FReepathon Pays For The Current Quarters Expenses?

Now That You Do, Donate And Keep FR Running


14 posted on 07/27/2014 5:00:30 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule them all)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Comes the dawn of the minimum wage lawyer. Sometimes success does not bring good fortune.


15 posted on 07/27/2014 5:06:09 AM PDT by clearcarbon
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
The last law firm I worked for began downsizing about a year after I retired. Fewer lawyers and with that, smaller support staff. I was a legal secretary for 35 years. Today it would be almost impossible for me to find a job in that field. With the advent of laptops, Ipads and what not, law firms don't need that many secretaries. The lawyers can put together their own documents. There isn't enough work for a gaggle of secretaries.
16 posted on 07/27/2014 5:26:01 AM PDT by fatnotlazy
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Florida has to many blood sucking bottom feeders, they advertise constantly on TV around here wanting to sue anyone for anything. No wonder nobody wants to accept responsibly any more, jump on the free money bandwagon sue someone.


17 posted on 07/27/2014 5:26:05 AM PDT by bikerman (Because of the lack of ammo there will be no warning shots.)
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To: Slambat
Also I think that being a lawyer and a politician is a conflict of interest.

Something I've been saying for years. We are in bad need of loser pays and refunds and penalties for suits that later turn out baseless.

18 posted on 07/27/2014 5:28:10 AM PDT by El Laton Caliente (NRA Life Member & www.Gunsnet.net Moderator)
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To: fatnotlazy

Many secretarial positions were eliminated by word processing programs and such (across the spectrum of industries). My boss has a secretary, and she is always scrambling to find work (doing filing or anything at all) in other departments because the reality is that at best it would be a part-time position. My predecessor had a secretary, and when she left I didn’t replace her - I do it myself.


19 posted on 07/27/2014 5:46:29 AM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic warfare against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: randita

It’s a versatile degree nonetheless. She should do well.


20 posted on 07/27/2014 5:55:05 AM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: Slambat

A small town had one lawyer with nothing to do.
Then another lawyer moved in and they were both very busy.


21 posted on 07/27/2014 6:47:06 AM PDT by Zuse (I am disrupted! I am offended! I am insulted! I am outraged!)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

In Florida, there’s an inch of doctors listed in the Yellow Pages, and two inches of malpractice lawyers.

I guess the state has reached the saturation point with lawyers, at least.


22 posted on 07/27/2014 6:50:15 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Maybe the State can cut back on the number of Laws too.


23 posted on 07/27/2014 7:16:07 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Corporate clients don't want to pay for the overhead of traditional law firms, and those firms are downsizing and slashing their hiring. It's amazing how little infrastructure it really takes to practice law these days, and savings can be passed on to clients. (You'd better be offering savings, or you won't get hired.) I left a big firm in Washington last year and got a DC mail drop, a VOIP phone with a DC area code, a malpractice policy, stationery and a web site. I cut my hourly rate and, although I'm not getting rich (I never was, so nothing there), I keep my bills paid and I run my own show. Most days, I just work from home.

When I started out as a lawyer, before word processing and the Internet, I could not have done this without at least a secretary, a permanent office and an expensive hard-copy law library. Now, I can compete with the big boys by working for the clients who got to know me during my big-firm days, and offering those clients a much-reduced hourly rate. I also don't have to share my fees with a group of high-level partners who take 1/3 for themselves and 1/3 for the firm's expensive overhead, leaving me with 1/3 of the money I busted my butt to earn.

24 posted on 07/27/2014 7:20:12 AM PDT by jumpingcholla34 (.)
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To: Gene Eric

Really, in this day, the only people who bother to believe the canard about a J.D. being a “versatile degree” are 1) those selling legal educations and 2) those gullible enough to become their prospective marks. You may want to check out the law school scamblogs for further detail.


25 posted on 07/27/2014 8:41:17 AM PDT by Milton Miteybad (I am Jim Thompson. {Really.})
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Does Florida have too many lawyers?

Does a bear.......

26 posted on 07/27/2014 8:42:09 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Calvin Locke

A lot of the grunt work that associates used to do can now be offshored.


27 posted on 07/27/2014 8:43:01 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Can’t we close all law schools for 20 years and prohibit attorneys from holding public office?


28 posted on 07/27/2014 8:47:32 AM PDT by morphing libertarian
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Kids coming out of Law school are not lawyers, they're green as green gets.
Most didn't work hard but expect that fat check and job on graduation that the schools
promised them. Not in the real world unless they're connected. Then there's
the issue of passing the Bar which most students will put off until they find a job.

Meanwhile they're so stacked with debt the search become hopeless. The smart ones will
take their work ethic to other areas and not really seek to become a Lawyer. Law enforcement
will hire them but Florida has recently cut back 250 officers in Miami, not sure about elsewhere.

In 2011 there were about 50k graduates from Law school, 2014 may be more.
Almost as useless as Liberal Arts.

29 posted on 07/27/2014 8:57:13 AM PDT by MaxMax (Pay Attention and you'll be pissed off too! FIRE BOEHNER, NOW!)
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To: fatnotlazy

I would trade my cell phone, laptop, iPad and desktop for a secretary pool in in miniskirts. I would even buy all of them fancy IBM Selectric typewriters to use.


30 posted on 07/27/2014 8:59:28 AM PDT by Rodamala
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To: scottteng

You need the right amount of balance with doctors- too many and they lose their skills, especially with surgeons. Not enough patients to keep up the skill set.Having too many doctors is not a good thing. Rethink your statement.


31 posted on 07/27/2014 9:04:29 AM PDT by kaila
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

In Florida, they need throngs of Government-Medical Industrial Complex Zombies to act as front line death panel facilitators. The goal is to extract all the finances of the retirees in the nursing homes. No English Speaking skills required, however applicants with experience sexing baby chicks and drowning litters of kittens in burlap feedsacks will be given preference. Applicants will be required to demostrate proficency in maximizing pai and humiliation using catheters, and syringes.


32 posted on 07/27/2014 9:08:42 AM PDT by Rodamala
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To: scottteng
now lets make it happen with doctors

I don't know how true it is, but I read somewhere that the AMA uses its influence to limit the number of med schools. If that's so, it's a sin because Obamacare will explode the demand for doctors.

33 posted on 07/27/2014 9:37:34 AM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Leaning Right; kaila

yes the AMA “the doctors union” deliberately keeps the number of seats in medical schools very low causing an artificial shortage with the accompanying high prices. The issue is not creating more surgeons which is a high skilled subset as I understand the shortage is primary care doctors. I would like to see each state establish 2 new medical schools enrolling students right out of high school and cranking out 100 call them PD’s for practical doctors each in five years. Doctors would be plentiful prices would come under control. Think of it most of us already are being seen by a similarly educated person in PA’s or ARNP. This would not interfere much with the current food chain in the medical industry and give average people much easier access to basic care.


34 posted on 07/27/2014 10:15:32 AM PDT by scottteng (Suntrust Bank is the worlds worst stay away!)
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To: Milton Miteybad

Your point is the relative wasted her time earning the degree?


35 posted on 07/27/2014 10:51:43 AM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: scottteng

PAs and ARNPs are supervised by MDs generally. Even if you don’t see the MD, they are held liable for the noctors ( not doctors) care. They sign off the charts after the noctors have seen the patient.. So, you cannot increase noctors without increasing the number of physicians, because they will not take on a huge noctor load due to liability and workload issues. Also, the number of seats in medical schools are low because it is very expensive and labor intensive to train a doctor. That is why they come out of medical school with huge debt. If you increase the providers too much, their exposure to different disease processes are very limited. I want to see a doctor who has seen it all, so he/she can better diagnose me. I think PAs and ARNPs are fine for very minor issues, but they dont get much training to be independent right out of school, and they rely on MDs to teach them. I see this everyday. They really dont know all that much without a lot of MD help.


36 posted on 07/27/2014 11:57:41 AM PDT by kaila
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I read a couple of years ago that the United States has more lawyers than the rest of the world combined.

I doubt that ratio has diminished in the intervening years.

37 posted on 07/27/2014 12:41:28 PM PDT by Gritty (Obama's governing as president of a Latin American republic, where only the president matters-MSteyn)
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To: Gritty

The word is getting out that finding a law career is much harder than it used to be and much less lucrative.

It’s going to take a couple of years to find a job unless you graduated in the top 10% of your class in a 1st or 2nd tier school of law.

Paying on $150,000-$200,000 in school loans can be extremely demoralizing and depressing when you send out resume after resume and don’t even get a call for an interview.

If I know of anyone who is considering going to law school, I am going to do my darndest to convince them not to. The only exception to that would be someone who has a decent paying day job and goes to law school part time. That’s hard to do, but not as hard as facing daunting loans with no job prospects at all.


38 posted on 07/27/2014 2:16:56 PM PDT by randita ("Is a nation without borders a nation?"...Noonan)
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To: Gene Eric
No, I am saying that when someone tells you that a J.D. is a "versatile" degree, they are probably trying to sell you on the proposition of paying for a legal education.

There are, however, thousands of newly-minted law school graduates who, upon finding themselves largely unemployable, would in fact say that they wasted 1) hundreds of thousands of tuition dollars and 2) three years of their lives they can never get back earning a degree that makes them less desirable for non-legal jobs than their competition who a) now have an additional three years' work experience advantage on them, and b) aren't financially crippled by astronomic levels of student loan debt that isn't dischargeable in bankruptcy.

And to pre-empt the next point, this is not to say that every law school graduate regrets his/her decision. But a surprising number of them do...a number corresponding to the 80% or so of law school graduates who, upon graduation, cannot obtain employment that enables them to establish independent households, families, and simultaneously service the massive student debt they have accumulated.

They don't call it "the law school scam" for nothing, you know.
39 posted on 07/27/2014 2:47:57 PM PDT by Milton Miteybad (I am Jim Thompson. {Really.})
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To: Milton Miteybad

Well, I’m one that mentioned to another here the degree was versatile without this specific quality being mentioned to me beforehand. And since I’m not trying promote the high cost of education, I must conclude you’re probably mistaken in your supposition — at least in the context of my post you criticized. Furthermore, the type of degree was never specified despite your restriction to J.D. Where was the relative’s graduate-level costs of education stated — a vital factor to your complaint?

I gather you’re not familiar with the value of business professionals educated in law, especially in the areas of contract, health, and patent law.


40 posted on 07/27/2014 5:17:02 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: Gene Eric
Where was the relative’s graduate-level costs of education stated — a vital factor to your complaint?

I don't recall that it was, not that it makes any difference. A year at even the most mediocre law school is going for $40-$60K, including the cost of living. If "the relative" received a full free ride through law school, then perhaps he/she may eventually achieve a benefit-to-cost ratio above 1.0000. Most law graduates these days aren't so fortunate.

I gather you’re not familiar with the value of business professionals educated in law, especially in the areas of contract, health, and patent law.

To the contrary, with 34 eminently successful years in business selling similar services, I would say I have a better-than-average idea of the value of such personnel. I also know that those skills don't necessarily have to come in a package wrapped in a J.D. degree.
41 posted on 07/27/2014 6:14:16 PM PDT by Milton Miteybad (I am Jim Thompson. {Really.})
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To: Milton Miteybad

Your point concerns the cost of the degree, not the opportunity provided by it.


42 posted on 07/27/2014 9:55:28 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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