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My thoughts On Pat Buchanan’s Brilliant And Incisive Take On Washington’s Ukrainian Fiasco
Conta Corner ^ | David Stockman

Posted on 07/29/2014 3:03:59 PM PDT by Lorianne

In just 800 words Pat Buchanan exposes the sheer juvenile delinquency embodied in Washington’s current Ukrainian fiasco. He accomplishes this by reminding us of the sober restraint that governed the actions of American Presidents from FDR to Eisenhower, Reagan and Bush I with respect to Eastern Europe during far more perilous times.

In a word, as much as they abhorred the brutal Soviet repression of the Hungarian uprising in 1956, the Prague Spring in 1968 and the solidarity movement in Poland in the early 1980s, among many other such incidents, they did not threaten war for one simple reason: These unfortunate episodes did not further endanger America’s national security. Instead, in different ways each of these Presidents searched for avenues of engagement with the often disagreeable and belligerent leaders of the Soviet Empire because they “felt that America could not remain isolated from the rulers of the world’s largest nation”.

Accordingly, during the entire span from 1933, when FDR recognized the Soviet Union, until 1991, when it ended, the US never once claimed Ukraine’s independence was part of its foreign policy agenda or a vital national security interest. Why in the world, therefore, should we be meddling in the backyard of a far less threatening Russia today?

(Excerpt) Read more at davidstockmanscontracorner.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 07/29/2014 3:03:59 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne
Why in the world, therefore, should we be meddling in the backyard of a far less threatening Russia today?

Meanwhile, the Russkies are developing their nuclear capability and have been supporting communist movements and states across the world, as well as Islamic nations like Iran. They also possess tremendous influence with their media, with which they promote a virulent anti-Americanism that essentially tells the world "it's okay to kill Americans, they're the servants of the NWO."

Buchanan and these freaks are either useful idiots or else they are working for the Reds directly.

2 posted on 07/29/2014 3:11:38 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Lorianne

You will not be very popular with the war dogs here.


3 posted on 07/29/2014 3:12:01 PM PDT by wrench
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To: wrench
But he will do great with the long-term Russkie plants and PaulBot/Alex Jones weirdos though.
4 posted on 07/29/2014 3:13:57 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

When do we start quoting the Domino Theory? It worked great last time it was drug out and waved around.


5 posted on 07/29/2014 3:18:46 PM PDT by wrench
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

The only thing stopping us from “developing our nuclear capability” is the Obama administration. Believe it or not, nuclear weapons are not that expensive, especially for a country like ours that already has the infrastructure for them.


6 posted on 07/29/2014 3:19:27 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: wrench
"You will not be very popular with the war dogs here."

War dogs? As opposed to lap dogs?

7 posted on 07/29/2014 3:19:42 PM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: wrench
When do we start quoting the Domino Theory?

Like several years ago when Putin invaded Georgia, complete with the whole "separatists" and "defense of Russians" nonsense.

8 posted on 07/29/2014 3:24:51 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Lorianne
"Accordingly, during the entire span from 1933, when FDR recognized the Soviet Union, until 1991, when it ended, the US never once claimed Ukraine’s independence was part of its foreign policy agenda or a vital national security interest. Why in the world, therefore, should we be meddling in the backyard of a far less threatening Russia today?"

The Ukraine declared it's independence in August of 1991, how could there be a policy for Ukrainian independence in the US prior to that? Is Stockman smoking rope? Has he not seen the expansion of Russia by Putin since O'Zero took office?

9 posted on 07/29/2014 3:29:07 PM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; wrench
"Like several years ago when Putin invaded Georgia, complete with the whole "separatists" and "defense of Russians" nonsense."

Wrench...better put some ice on that

10 posted on 07/29/2014 3:30:38 PM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Lorianne

Pat is always brilliant.


11 posted on 07/29/2014 3:30:41 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Since Obama is a pussy and he won't do anything ... and you know that as well as anyone ... then it would be the best thing for his administration to make no threats.

Do you think it's great that our wuss-in-chief is making threats that you know he won't ever back up?

12 posted on 07/29/2014 3:31:24 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

I’m not aware of him making any threats except for sanctions, and then refraining to call Putin straight out a “liar,” which any real leader would have done some time ago.


13 posted on 07/29/2014 3:32:24 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: wrench
You will not be very popular with the war dogs here.

These folks beating the drums seem to think that war with Russia will be like all of our other recent wars where less than 1% of the country goes off to some far away place most couldn't find on a map and thoroughly delivers ass-kickings on the nightly news while the rest of America goes about their day-to-day activities without any interruption or care in the world.

It won't be like that.

14 posted on 07/29/2014 3:42:29 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: Lorianne
...the solidarity movement in Poland in the early 1980s, among many other such incidents, they did not threaten war for one simple reason: These unfortunate episodes did not further endanger America’s national security. Instead, in different ways each of these Presidents searched for avenues of engagement with the often disagreeable and belligerent leaders of the Soviet Empire because they “felt that America could not remain isolated from the rulers of the world’s largest nation”.

The reason we did not "threaten war" is because we didn't have the ability to intervene militarily. However, we provided other kinds of support to the opposition, much of it covert and also rhetorically. We provided the hope that kept the opposition alive. We had a containment policy, the Truman Doctrine, JFK's rhetorical defense of freedom throughout the world, and Reagan's evil empire along with a Polish Pope.

America used the VOA and other ways to communicate with the oppressed in these countries. In short, we had American leaders who could articulate the ideological struggle we were waging.

15 posted on 07/29/2014 3:43:58 PM PDT by kabar
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
...complete with the whole "separatists" and "defense of Russians" nonsense

Just had a nightmare flashback.
If you substitute Sudetenland and Danzig for Crimea or Georgia and speak of "defense of Germans" history would be repeating itself-except that now there isn't any longer a man to stand in the gap in opposition to the tyrant.

16 posted on 07/29/2014 3:45:04 PM PDT by stormhill
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To: Lorianne

Looking at these problems from the point of view that Washington really wants to solve them is even more ludicrous than believing that Obama and his cabal have the best interests of the United States at heart.


17 posted on 07/29/2014 3:51:03 PM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: Lorianne

The recent situation with Russia and Ukraine has seemed murky to me as soon as Russia moved on the Crimea. Whatever one might think would be the right thing to do, we have done little for the same reason that we did probably nothing to free Tibet from China: too far away and impossible to do without risking a major war.

The idea that there is anything we can do to dissuade Putin from acting in Russia’s historical sphere of influence seems pretty nonsensical. W did, or could have done nothing to keep him from moving on Georgia.

Buchanan is probably right; we should engage with Putin where possible and try diplomacy and strenghtening alliances to contain Russia if they become too ambitious. (Such as installing missile defense systems in places like Poland and the Czech Republic. And we all know what happened to those plans. And we should avoid stupid moves that reopen areas such as the Middle East to renewed Russian influence.)


18 posted on 07/29/2014 4:08:49 PM PDT by Will88
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To: Lorianne

Reagan wouldn’t be passive, Obama is.

Reagan would be opposing Russia recovering empire and undoing what he accomplished and becoming a threat to the world again.

Obama is more with our Russia supporters here, in fact it is quite a game they play, calling for weakness, yet pretending that Obama isn’t with them and weak himself.


19 posted on 07/29/2014 4:10:14 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Drew68
It won't be like that.

The biggest problem with your fantasy is that you couldn't possibly find anyone on this forum who even thinks what you have described or has even called for a war with Russia.

20 posted on 07/29/2014 4:14:54 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: kabar

People forget that the Warsaw Pact had 6,000,000 men under arms and was designed as an unstoppable attack force designed to take Europe within weeks, and that WWIII was expected to end life as we know it, and possibly all human life on the planet.

Today, most of the Warsaw pact is part of our NATO, Russia is alone, and the Russian empire doesn’t exist anymore, yet.


21 posted on 07/29/2014 4:19:33 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Lorianne

Meanwhile the intent of the Budapest Memorandum is ignored.


22 posted on 07/29/2014 4:26:56 PM PDT by The Truth Will Make You Free
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Meanwhile, the Russkies are developing their nuclear capability

Huh? Care to elaborate. Looks like they've been there, done that.
23 posted on 07/29/2014 4:29:03 PM PDT by caveat emptor (!)
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To: Lorianne

I guess no one told Buchanan that the Soviet Union is supposed to have ended in 1991, not continued under pretense as a revived imperial Russian empire or a wannabee revived imperial Russian empire.

Therefore his point and his analogy comparing the two eras and the two Ukraine states, old and new, and the two states of old Soviet Union and modern Russia as representing equal conditions, respectively, does nothing less than throw the end of the Soviet Empire into the ash heap of history as a non-event.

Obviously that is Putin’s desire. What is not obvious is why Buchanan thinks the west ought to accede to it, in this era.


24 posted on 07/29/2014 4:32:48 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: TBP
Pat is always brilliant.

Not so much anymore, sadly.

25 posted on 07/29/2014 4:33:10 PM PDT by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: John Valentine

When I started doing reviews, I had a company attorney tell me that no one was “always” anything, nor were they likely to be “never” anything either.

It kept me out of lawsuits over the past thirty six years.


26 posted on 07/29/2014 4:34:36 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: ansel12

You are correct.

As they often say, Generals are fighting the last war.

Many folks hear “Russia” and they think we are up against the strength of the USSR. And even back then, the USSR was not as strong as we thought they were.

Are they pikers? No. Would we be able to take them on in a conventional war? Sure. Just our ability to project conventional weapons from off shore makes that a no brainer.

Of course, they are not Iraq and they are not rollovers. Even though they could take us into the deep innings, in the end we would win handily. Of course, nukes are a different issue. No one really wins there.


27 posted on 07/29/2014 4:38:34 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Vermont Lt

They also forget that our military alliance against Russia is a European military alliance called NATO, and is 28 nations strong and includes us, Germany, great Britain, France, Poland, and most of what used to be the nations of the Russian empire that Reagan brought down.


28 posted on 07/29/2014 5:02:40 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Will88

Realpolitik is not going away anytime soon.


29 posted on 07/29/2014 5:07:30 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: ansel12

Most of which can be counted on for little to nothing if war came. We can’t even get these nations to bring economic sanctions.


30 posted on 07/29/2014 5:34:01 PM PDT by Henry Hnyellar
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To: Henry Hnyellar

The last thing Putin would want to do is commit suicide by creating a war, but in a war against Russia, NATO would fight, it is why they created NATO, to defend themselves from Russia.


31 posted on 07/29/2014 5:49:08 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Lorianne

“These unfortunate episodes did not further endanger America’s national security.”

Yea, people seem to forget that, EVEN HERE. The president tells them to HATE PUTIN, and they follow along...never considering where it might lead.


32 posted on 07/29/2014 7:01:07 PM PDT by BobL
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Meanwhile, the Russkies are developing their nuclear capability and have been supporting communist movements and states across the world, as well as Islamic nations like Iran.”

Then you fight them on those fields - I don’t see what “sanctions” are going to do other than make Putin laugh. The only thing in the past 30 years that EVER got their intention was SDI...and we don’t even talk about building up our military capabilities, at all.


33 posted on 07/29/2014 7:02:39 PM PDT by BobL
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To: BobL

Where will it lead? Are you under the impression that Putin is so insane that he wants to commit suicide by trying to defeat the NATO in a war?

Is your man that unstable and ignorant of his weakness? I don’t think so, it is all in your head.


34 posted on 07/29/2014 7:19:00 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: ansel12

“Are you under the impression that Putin is so insane that he wants to commit suicide by trying to defeat the NATO in a war?”

...as if NATO stands a prayer against their 20,000 battle tanks.

As during Cold War, we’d have to go nuke (and we don’t even know if they work anymore). The REAL QUESTION is just how insane our own leader is.


35 posted on 07/29/2014 7:25:25 PM PDT by BobL
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To: BobL

My gosh, you really don’t have a clue do you?

Why would the United States and the 28 nations Of NATO need to go nuke to defend itself from little Russia?

You also keep avoiding the question about your constant threat that your man is itching for a war and will destroy Russia for nothing if anyone stands up to him.

If he is that nuts, then now is the time to stop him, before he spends the next decades actually becoming powerful.


36 posted on 07/29/2014 7:38:13 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Lorianne

Poor Pat. He didn’t get the memo that the Russians are no longer allies, now that Operation Barbarossa was a go. Obviously the relative who was supposed to tell him this must have been the one who died during the Holocaust (by falling out of a guard tower).

I can’t wait to read Pat telling us how wonderful HAMAS is in his next column...


37 posted on 07/29/2014 7:51:18 PM PDT by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwaet! Lar bith maest hord, sothlice!)
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To: stormhill

Pat would have been a great president.


38 posted on 07/29/2014 9:24:58 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll Onward! Ride to the sound of the guns!)
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To: ansel12

“Why would the United States and the 28 nations Of NATO need to go nuke to defend itself from little Russia?”

Even during the Cold War it was a GIVEN that there was ONE Warsaw Pact country and ONE NATO country, and then some support staff. A slight exaggeration then, but not anymore...they other 27 countries now just have token militaries.

“You also keep avoiding the question about your constant threat that your man is itching for a war and will destroy Russia for nothing if anyone stands up to him.”

It’s called WAG THE DOG...you may want to read up on it.

“If he is that nuts, then now is the time to stop him, before he spends the next decades actually becoming powerful.”

I agree. That’s why it’s INCREDIBLY STUPID to support him now. But he’ll be out of office in 2.5 years, hopefully replaced by a Republican.


39 posted on 07/30/2014 3:33:03 AM PDT by BobL
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To: BobL

Childish silliness.


40 posted on 07/30/2014 7:24:39 AM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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