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The West's Reckless Rush Towards War With Russia
Zero Hedge ^ | 07/31/14 | Tyler Durden

Posted on 08/01/2014 11:16:09 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX

For reasons that have no rational explanations at this time, the US and Europe have embarked on a concerted program to demonize Putin, ostracize Russia, and bring the world as close to a major conflict as it's been since the Cold War, a time hardly memorable to many in the current crop of our elected officials.

Within hours of the MH-17 plane crash, the United States pinned the blame on Russia generally, and Putin particularly. The anti-Putin propaganda (and if there were a stronger term I'd use it) has been relentless and almost comically over-the-top (see image above, and those below).

The US and the UK in particular, are leading the charge.

(Excerpt) Read more at zerohedge.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: garbage; mh17; putin; russia; ukraine; war
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Whatever one thinks of Putin and Russia, it is insanity to provoke them over the Ukraine.
1 posted on 08/01/2014 11:16:09 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Pining_4_TX
...it is insanity to provoke them over the Ukraine.

Coupla things...

1. Who is provoking whom in Ukraine exactly? and

2. How much territory outside Russia's current borders is Putin entitled to annex before we dare risk "provoking" him over it?

2 posted on 08/01/2014 11:20:51 AM PDT by Oberon (John 12:5-6)
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To: Pining_4_TX
No, the US and NATO should let Putin retake former Soviet Republics and Warsaw pact countries in the name of "Peace in our Time."


3 posted on 08/01/2014 11:21:43 AM PDT by Reaganez
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To: Reaganez

How long did the Munich accord last before Germany rolled tanks into the Sudetenland? I forget... but it wasn’t measured in years.


4 posted on 08/01/2014 11:24:05 AM PDT by Oberon (John 12:5-6)
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To: Pining_4_TX
"Whatever one thinks of Putin and Russia, it is insanity to provoke them over the Ukraine."

I could not think of a better way to promote Putin propaganda than the statement you just made. Let's not provoke them over Georgia too right? Your position is not only idiotic, but immoral and a betrayal to liberty and freedom.

5 posted on 08/01/2014 11:25:17 AM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Pining_4_TX; MeshugeMikey; All

There you go! Throwing cold water on Obama’s most lasting legacy: starting a brand new COLD WAR with Russia!

In all fairness, partial credit must be given to Mrs. Bill Clinton while she was Obama’s Secretary of Statements for handing Russia’s go-to-guy with a Reset button.

BTW, is it true that the Reset button was marked opposite to what she said to the Russian?


6 posted on 08/01/2014 11:27:52 AM PDT by Graewoulf (Democrats' Obamacare Socialist Health Insur. Tax violates U.S. Constitution AND Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: Pining_4_TX
They never should have let McCain go over there in the first place.

McCain Tells Ukraine Protesters ‘America Is With You’ - December 2013

FYI The guy to his left is a NEO-NAZI

7 posted on 08/01/2014 11:28:12 AM PDT by McGruff (Seems like some are more interested in protecting Ukraine's border than ours.)
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To: Oberon

I doubt you will accept it, but the west provoked Russia first by expanding its influence closer and closer to Russia. The US also helped to foment the protests that overthrew the elected government of the Ukraine.

Second, historically, the Crimea was always a part of Russia. The Russian-speaking people in eastern Ukraine voted to align with Russia. Once again, western powers declared an election invalid because it didn’t like the results. So much for promoting democracy. There is only the west’s contention that Russia has the intention of recreating the former Soviet Union.

Third, this is a different age. There will not be another WWII in the nuclear age. To provoke a major nuclear power over something that is Europe’s problem is nuts. Other than sanctions, which are almost always ineffective and will hurt Europe and US interests as much as Russian, what would you have us do? Send weapons, troops? To what end?

In case nobody noticed, the US is broke. We are being invaded from the south and infiltrated by Islamic radicals. To spend time, money, or energy poking the Russian bear is absurd.

And, no, I don’t trust Putin, but I don’t trust any government. They all lie.


8 posted on 08/01/2014 11:28:20 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: Oberon

I’m embarrassed to share membership with some of these people.


9 posted on 08/01/2014 11:29:35 AM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: lormand

Did you even read the article at Zero Hedge or just immediately start typing a “shoot the messenger” comment?


10 posted on 08/01/2014 11:30:00 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: Pining_4_TX
The guy who runs Zero Hedge is himself a Russian, and he believes Russkie claims from their media without the use of any critical thinking.

Case in point, he mentions Russkie claims of the SU-25 being "within a few kilometeres" of the airliner. The Russkies themselves claim that it was "flying on the same level" and "tailing" the airliner.

An SU-25 cannot reach the same height as the airliner, and the closest it could get would be 3KM, directly beneath it, and that without any extra weight on it such as armarments. The Russkies were even on Wikipedia trying to upgrade the SU-25 for a gullible public. Secondly, the top speed of the SU-25 cannot "tail" the airliner.

He also mentions the alleged photographs of Ukrainian Buks. But from the place where the Russkies allege they were, this would mean the missile would have had to travel all loud and bright across Russkie positions to hit the airliner, and yet without being noticed.

He also calls the social media postings "questionable." He is referring to the admission by Strelkov that they shot down the airliner, which was also picked up by Russian media, although, at the time, they did not know it was an airliner. The Russkies were also bragging for quite awhile about having Buks, all of which postings were also deleted. So Zerohedge calls them "questionable" because there is not much else you can say to confessions like that.

Furthermore, Bezler confirmed the recordings provided by the Ukrainian SBU as real, although he claimed he was somehow taken out of context. By so doing, however, he admits to taking orders and reporting to the Russian GRU, with whom he was communicating. He also admits, by so doing, of having Buks in the area.

Next, it has been proven that the Russkies had Buks in the area beyond just the taped confessions. Journalists from Reuters and others saw the Buks moving around. Residents saw Buks moving around and took photographs of them, which were geolocated to the areas they claimed they were. These same Buks were seen leaving to Russia and filmed doing so. The Russkies claimed it was a fake, a Ukrainian Buk in some controlled city, but their fake claim was fake, as their allegation relied on the alleged presence of a street address on a billboard, which, however, is not actually visible in the video (they're just making claims, and hoping people are dumb enough to believe them). Since that time, journalists and others have confirmed that the video was in fact taken where it claimed to be. Therefore, we know that Buks fled to Russia.

At this point, trying to make this a NATO/EU conspiracy is stupid.

11 posted on 08/01/2014 11:30:43 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Mother of God, chase Putin away!

12 posted on 08/01/2014 11:30:44 AM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeeepeesssssed)
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To: Pining_4_TX

No offense to you, pining, ... but after seeing your posting of this article I actually went to the ZeroHedge site for the first time. The people who comment at ZeroHedge are among the most demented Paulbots, jew haters, Putinistas, truthers and general nutcases you will find. There they are, stuck like flies on flypaper, buzzing and flapping their wings, but they can’t go anywhere.


13 posted on 08/01/2014 11:31:29 AM PDT by Parmenio
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To: Pining_4_TX

I’m within a year of Mr. Obama’s age and I remember the cold war just fine. Of course, I, like a lot of others here, was in uniform for part of it, something he never even thought of doing.


14 posted on 08/01/2014 11:33:04 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: McGruff
You are a classic case of what Stalin called a "useful idiot". This time, you are working for "former" KGB agent and dictator, Vlad Putin. You get your news from Russia Today and regurgitate it here without an ounce of guilt or shame.
15 posted on 08/01/2014 11:34:32 AM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Pining_4_TX
Whatever one thinks of Putin and Russia, it is insanity to provoke them over the Ukraine.

Putin does seem to be getting more desperate. His economic policies are still failing (even with high oil prices). He is losing important buffer countries as allies. He is surrounded by gangsters at home and he has associated himself with drunken derelict terrorists abroad.

The problem is that we have to confront him. He's become a terrorist and innocent people are dying. He's become more immediately dangerous to innocent civilians than North Korea's Kim Jong-Un. We can't just give up commercial air flight to appease him.

The world needs to defeat him. Maybe, until Putin is removed, the West should cease flying in Russian air space and should forbid Russian planes to use Western air space.

16 posted on 08/01/2014 11:37:52 AM PDT by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Pining_4_TX
"Did you even read the article at Zero Hedge or just immediately start typing a “shoot the messenger” comment?"

What ground breaking smoking gun did Zero Hedge find? Can it re-write the history of the Soviet Union, the KGB and it's current dictator Putin, then candy coat it in a way that impresses you?

Why is freedom and liberty a right for you, but not anyone else?

17 posted on 08/01/2014 11:38:45 AM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Graewoulf

Roosyuh ezz Hillarys spiritual home away from home


18 posted on 08/01/2014 11:39:02 AM PDT by MeshugeMikey ( "Never, never, never give up". Winston Churchill ...)
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To: Pining_4_TX

You are right. The EU & us keep closing the noose around Russia’s throat. This is shortsighted in the face of what confronts us throughout the world. Russia is our best potential ally against the enemies of Islam and China.


19 posted on 08/01/2014 11:41:14 AM PDT by ex-snook (God forgives and forgets.)
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To: Pining_4_TX
There will not be another WWII in the nuclear age. To provoke a major nuclear power over something that is Europe’s problem is nuts. Other than sanctions, which are almost always ineffective and will hurt Europe and US interests as much as Russian, what would you have us do? Send weapons, troops? To what end?

I agree that we will not involve ourselves militarily in Ukraine... but I disagree with the way you frame the discussion. I don't see us "provoking Russia over the Ukraine" so much as I see us holding Putin accountable for his territorial ambitions.

If you're worried that US action will impact stability in Europe, forget it. Putin has already impacted stability in Europe.

20 posted on 08/01/2014 11:44:44 AM PDT by Oberon (John 12:5-6)
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To: lormand

How about Poland ?
The Baltic States ?

Can we provoke them in these countries ?


21 posted on 08/01/2014 11:45:30 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Rip it out by the roots.)
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To: lormand

Normally those who resort to personal insults are the ones losing the argument. I provided a link to the article.


22 posted on 08/01/2014 11:46:37 AM PDT by McGruff (Seems like some are more interested in protecting Ukraine's border than ours.)
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To: Parmenio; Pining_4_TX

Thanks for the headsup on Zero Hedge. I am surrounded by Paulhroid/Alex Jones nutcases here in the Austin area. They are among some of the worst and most dangerous people in the US. One of them crashed a small plane into an office building here 4 years ago, killing an IRS agent inside. Now they openly support a KGB dictator. We live in very dangerous times.


23 posted on 08/01/2014 11:47:26 AM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Americans don’t have what it takes to endure a war. Most people don’t want to go to war over Ukraine.

If China invades Taiwan, there would be no involvement of the usa.

It’s a post war America.


24 posted on 08/01/2014 11:47:30 AM PDT by Ted Grant
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To: Pining_4_TX

Shutup Tyler and stick to stocks..


25 posted on 08/01/2014 11:48:16 AM PDT by Cold Heat (Have you reached your breaking point yet? If not now....then when?)
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To: ex-snook
Russia is our best potential ally against the enemies of Islam and China.

An insane opinion! Russia is helping Iran with their nuclear program and is allies with China, even conducting joint war games with them a few years ago.

26 posted on 08/01/2014 11:49:30 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: lormand
You in Texas should never plan on seceding from the US or you may face the same fate as those who are trying to secede from Ukraine.

And why can't you even secure your own border?

27 posted on 08/01/2014 11:50:51 AM PDT by McGruff (Seems like some are more interested in protecting Ukraine's border than ours.)
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To: ex-snook

Russia is not interested in being our ally, they are recreating the Soviet Union


28 posted on 08/01/2014 11:51:39 AM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: McGruff
If the shoe fits, wear it. You and other Putin lovers are useful idiots against freedom and liberty.

Ronald Reagan is rolling in his grave seeing how many of you are trying to revive the Soviet Union.

29 posted on 08/01/2014 11:52:19 AM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Russia can do as they please with no risk of war with the U.S. as long as that America hating wimp is in the White House.


30 posted on 08/01/2014 11:54:38 AM PDT by G Larry (Which of Obama's policies do you think I'd support if he were white?)
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To: McGruff
"You in Texas should never plan on seceding from the US or you may face the same fate as those who are trying to secede from Ukraine."

Wow, what a stupid comparison. I'm sorry for calling you a 'useful idiot'. I meant to say that you are an 'idiot' without any adjective or preposition. If you'd like, you can call me "capitalist pig" or some other marxist slur commonly heard by your beloved comrades in Russia.

31 posted on 08/01/2014 11:59:21 AM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: lormand

You need to take your meds now. Before Ron Paul comes to take you away.


32 posted on 08/01/2014 12:00:51 PM PDT by McGruff (Seems like some are more interested in protecting Ukraine's border than ours.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; Pining_4_TX; Parmenio

The article was “Submitted by Chris Martenson via Peak Prosperity...”

In addition, ZeroHedge is a wild west saloon, as is FreeRepublic, where keyboard-gunfights, hostile words, and insults are flung about with similar frequencies.

Both forums evidently have a Russia Household Guard; and both forums have several other encampments opposed to Russian aggression.

Russia *is* the aggressor who invaded Ukraine.

Also, MH-17 was shot down by a BUK missile system operated by Russian agents in the Ukraine; and Russian agents strongly inhibited, and continue to inhibit, investigation of the shootdown and crash sites.

Russia has committed two acts of war against foreign nations and neither act was for freedom - there is *no* justification.


33 posted on 08/01/2014 12:06:54 PM PDT by First_Salute (May God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: McGruff
I won't apologize for being passionate about freedom and liberty. Those who support Russian aggression and expansion are enemies of liberty and freedom, which is ironic because so many Paulhroids support Vlad Putin.

Reagan knew how to handle Russian aggression, but now we have too many enemies within, both in and out of Washington.

34 posted on 08/01/2014 12:09:17 PM PDT by lormand (Inside every liberal is a dung slinging monkey)
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To: Pining_4_TX

We are NOT going to go to war with Russia.

Both we and they have enough nukes to blow-up the world a thousand times over.

That was enough to ensure cooler heads prevailed during the entire duration of the Cold War, when tensions frequently ran much higher than they do today.


35 posted on 08/01/2014 12:09:19 PM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Russia is our best potential ally against the enemies of Islam and China.

---- An insane opinion! Russia is helping Iran with their nuclear program and is allies with China, even conducting joint war games with them a few years ago.

--- You may think that Russia as an ally is insane but do you suggest China or Islam? Russia is not our rival unless we are pulled by the nose by the EU or our own war mongers.

36 posted on 08/01/2014 12:14:46 PM PDT by ex-snook (God forgives and forgets.)
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To: Pining_4_TX

No one is provoking them in the Ukraine except Putin’s desire to extend the Russian empire and capture the dreams of Soviet yesteryears.


37 posted on 08/01/2014 12:17:30 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: ex-snook
You may think that Russia as an ally is insane but do you suggest China or Islam?

Did you even read what I wrote? Is Iran not an Islamic country? And didn't you just call China an enemy, so why are you justifying an alliance with China now over Islam?

38 posted on 08/01/2014 12:18:01 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Pining_4_TX
HaHaHa- I really did laugh out loud at the headline.

Obama and the Western Europeans are running away as fast as they think they can get away with it.

Putin is clearly the aggressor here, and if any general war starts, it will be because he doesn't give up and some other players (like Poland) decide to start give Ukraine some real military assistance and drag the rest of us into it.

Just like 1914.

39 posted on 08/01/2014 12:19:26 PM PDT by pierrem15 (Claudius: "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.")
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To: Pining_4_TX
the west provoked Russia first by expanding its influence closer and closer to Russia

Utter horse manure: Does anyone seriously think NATO is an offensive alliance? That it posed or poses any serious threat of invading Russia?

Sorry, but Russia simply has no right to control any other state's foreign policy, to say nothing of annexing its territory.

40 posted on 08/01/2014 12:23:00 PM PDT by pierrem15 (Claudius: "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.")
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To: Pining_4_TX

Whatever one thinks of Putin and Russia, it is insanity to provoke them over the Ukraine.

************
The Obama/EU axis knows that it is militarily and psychologically too weak to send troops to that area. But they could make Russia pay a price for its success via sanctions and military aid to Ukraine. Putin got away with the Crimea takeover, but he needs to learn to quit while he is ahead. He is pushing the envelope.


41 posted on 08/01/2014 12:23:08 PM PDT by Socon-Econ
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To: Pining_4_TX
it is insanity to provoke them over the Ukraine.

LOL, classic.

42 posted on 08/01/2014 12:24:35 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Pining_4_TX

weakness begets war...over and over again in history. The only reason it is provocation is because our president is weak of character and probably a muslim.


43 posted on 08/01/2014 12:45:01 PM PDT by felixandbowinkle (let irritations pass and become truly happy and strong..fhu.com!)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Putin is just trying to restore the “glory” of the old Soviet Union. Nothing he does should surprise us.


44 posted on 08/01/2014 12:53:28 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Rreally? Exactly which nations did we annex to the US to encroach on Russia?


45 posted on 08/01/2014 12:55:18 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

590MPH is fast enough to tail a jetliner... though it won’t be catching up any ground....


46 posted on 08/01/2014 12:57:06 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Maybe he who is not really Durden should invest in freedom then and stop supporting foreign communism and mercantilism against the U.S.A. The interesting weather, the economy, likely wars, plagues...not enough? Maybe we’ll see more fun then, until there is no way at all to keep money or be safe.


47 posted on 08/01/2014 1:14:09 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: Pining_4_TX

These people don’t really think Obama is going to do anything about any of this, do they?

It seems plain to me that there are 3 groups Obama will actually DO things for: Illegals, Homosexuals, Muslims.

If you don’t fit into one of those groups - forget it. He’s buying shrimp!


48 posted on 08/01/2014 1:15:55 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: TheBattman

My understanding is, either 560 or 590MPH would be the top speed... if it was not carrying any armaments. Similarly, its top altitude would be 23,000 feet... if it had no armaments. If it was fully loaded, it might have reached 16,000 feet, and would have been flying at a rate too slow to hit the 777. Furthermore, it would have to point up, way up, and hopefully avoid stalling, with weapons of dubious ability to even hit the target.


49 posted on 08/01/2014 1:18:25 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

No one wants a war with Russia—there would be no winners here—maybe China or anyone who would not be draw into the conflict. Putin is no Hitler (he’s smarter for one thing) but he’s no sunday school teacher. Will he use all he can to expand Russia on the world stage—yes—even murder! Remember that ex-KGB agent who fled to England —called Putin Names and got a dose of Radiation poisoning that killed him. In Russia the fellow was seen as a Traitor deserving his fate. Their are no ex-KGB agents—like the mob—they only way to get out is death.


50 posted on 08/01/2014 1:28:23 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll Onward! Ride to the sound of the guns!)
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