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U.S. Army Saying "Ciao" to Italy's M9 Beretta -- but What Will Replace It?
www.nasdaq.com ^ | 8-2-14 | Motley Fool

Posted on 08/03/2014 9:04:43 PM PDT by AlmaKing

Dumping Beretta

Last month, the Army announced plans for an "industry day" at which gun manufacturers such as Smith & Wesson , Sturm, Ruger , Colt, and Glock would be invited to show their wares and compete for a new contract. Its objective: to replace the M9 Beretta semiautomatic pistol.

The U.S. Army holds more than 200,000 M9 Berettas in its inventory. If it proceeds with plans to use a new handgun, tentatively monikered the "Modular Handgun System," all of these M9s could soon be replaced. In fact, Military.com reported that if other armed services follow the Army's lead, one lucky gun company could soon receive an order for as many as 400,000 handguns -- a significant contract in an era of declining civilian handgun sales .

According to Military.com , the Army's main concerns with the M9 are that it's insufficiently accurate, lethal, and reliable for the service's purposes. That's not entirely Beretta's fault. Project officer Daryl Easlick at the Army's Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, Georgia, was quoted in the Military.com article as saying that many of the Berettas it has in inventory today are "old," adding that "it's costing us more to replace and repair M9s than it would cost to go get a new handgun."

Some critics cite a lack of killing power in the M9. Simply put, the 9mm full-metal jacket round fired from a Beretta M9 isn't big enough to stop and drop every opponent a soldier encounters. This raises the odds of the Army's next standard-issue handgun being a .45 caliber weapon such as the M1911, which Beretta's M9 replaced in Army service in 1985. Lots of companies make .45 caliber weapons that the military could consider and companies might be submitting news designs for the Modular Handgun System.

(Excerpt) Read more at nasdaq.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: banglist; beretta; reallyoldnews
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For your consumption
1 posted on 08/03/2014 9:04:43 PM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: AlmaKing

AHA!


2 posted on 08/03/2014 9:05:55 PM PDT by M1911A1
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To: AlmaKing

If this Administration gets to decide, a fly swatter.


3 posted on 08/03/2014 9:07:07 PM PDT by Cyman (We have to pass it to see what's in it= definition of stool sample)
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To: AlmaKing

Documentation File on the 2014 Impeachment of B. Hussein Obama, aka Barry Soetoro a former Foreign Student from Indonesia, and still a legal Citizen of the Sovereign Nation of Indonesia.


4 posted on 08/03/2014 9:13:07 PM PDT by Graewoulf (Democrats' Obamacare Socialist Health Insur. Tax violates U.S. Constitution AND Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: M1911A1

Right up you’re alley...


5 posted on 08/03/2014 9:13:21 PM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: AlmaKing
"a significant contract in an era of declining civilian handgun sales ."

Declining civilian handgun sales? Say what? Didn't Ruger stop accepting new orders a year or so ago because they couldn't keep up with demand? Aren't all gun manufacturers selling at record levels? Ammo can't be found at any price. Right.....

6 posted on 08/03/2014 9:13:33 PM PDT by matthew fuller (This is MUSLIM TERRORIST AWARENESS MONTH.)
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To: Cyman

Or a white flag. I hear the French army’s out of business every time the white flag factory goes down.


7 posted on 08/03/2014 9:15:44 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: AlmaKing

“Army’s main concerns with the M9 are that it’s insufficiently accurate, lethal, and reliable for the service’s purposes”

What kind of tests did the Pentagon put the Beretta through that they couldn’t figure it out before they decided to buy it?

Shouldn’t “accurate, lethal and reliable” be a requirement for every gun they put into service?


8 posted on 08/03/2014 9:16:20 PM PDT by webcrosby
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To: Cyman

Or a squirt gun with a red painted muzzle...probably a “smart” squirt gun...


9 posted on 08/03/2014 9:16:37 PM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (Just what is the real reason to disarm a law abiding citizen like me?)
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To: AlmaKing

“...a significant contract in an era of declining civilian handgun sales.”

I’m a bit confused here. Haven’t they increased just a tad in the past couple of years?

Regarding replacing the M9. Just pull the 1911 back out. They’re easy to fit with ambidextrous safeties, easy enough to maintain, and there’s a lot of Green Berets, MARSOC, and the like who use the 1911 platform who can school up some competent pistol instructors. But we’ll likely get some expensive, polymer framed abomination that’s overly complicated that the mall ninjas and gear queers will swoon over.


10 posted on 08/03/2014 9:17:34 PM PDT by Antihero101607
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To: webcrosby

Apparently, it’s been fine since 1986 or so according to the article. Then, all of a sudden, it’s not good enough.


11 posted on 08/03/2014 9:18:15 PM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: AlmaKing
Simply put, the 9mm full-metal jacket round fired from a Beretta M9 isn't big enough to stop and drop every opponent a soldier encounters

Is the military using FMJ for combat ammo? If that is standard, I don't think a larger caliber is going to improve the take down capabilities.

When my kid was a cop they carried 40 caliber Sigs. P226, I *think* but I can't swear to it. She liked it a lot, but when she left that line of work it was out of her budget for personal use.

12 posted on 08/03/2014 9:19:02 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: AlmaKing

its about time. but under the obummer as commander in chief he will order sling shots. the cougar 45 is an awesome weapon. b doesn’t make em anymore but i think Taurus does.


13 posted on 08/03/2014 9:20:10 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2 (civil law: commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong Blackstone Commentaries I p44)
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To: AlmaKing

This quote from the article gave me a WTF moment.

“The slide-mounted safety doesn’t do well when you are trying to clear a stoppage — you inadvertently de-cock and safe the weapon system.”

In the Marine Corps we were taught “Tap, Rack, Bang” to clear a stoppage. Tap the magazine, rack the slide, and pull the trigger. Not once did I ever inadvertently de-cock and safe my weapon while performing Immediate Action. This guy is smoking something, or he never spent a lot of time firing this weapon.
The M-9 is a 30 year old weapon, it is time to retire it.


14 posted on 08/03/2014 9:21:03 PM PDT by sean327 (God created all men equal, then some become Marines!)
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To: webcrosby
Shouldn’t “accurate, lethal and reliable” be a requirement for every gun they put into service?

LOL. We are talking the government here. You could almost put a sarcasm tag after that question.

15 posted on 08/03/2014 9:21:11 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: AlmaKing
From Dr. No, 1962:

M: "Yes, I thought so. This damn Beretta again. I've told you about this before." (to the armorer) "You tell him, for the last time."

Maj. Boothroyd: "It's nice and light... in a lady's handbag. No stopping power."

M: "Any comments, 007?"

James Bond: "I disagree, sir. I've used the Beretta for ten years. And I've never missed with it yet."

M: "Maybe not, but it jammed on your last job and you spent six months in the hospital in consequence. If you carry a double-O number, it means you're licensed to kill, not get killed... From now on you'll carry a different gun. Show him, armorer."

Maj. Boothroyd: "Walther PPK. 7.65 mil with a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window. Takes a Brausch silencer with very little reduction in muzzle velocity. The American CIA swear by them."


16 posted on 08/03/2014 9:21:23 PM PDT by Steely Tom (How do you feel about robbing Peter's robot?)
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To: M1911A1
It would serve those high and mighty dumba$$e$, who replaced Ol' Slabsides with that f*cking piece of sh*t, right, to re-adopt an updated M-1911 series.

I would laugh my a$$ off. A lot of those turned-in, original manufacture M-1911A1s are still highly serviceable and far better than that Beretta junk.
17 posted on 08/03/2014 9:22:39 PM PDT by 98ZJ USMC
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To: AlmaKing

I don’t believe the part about the M9 being unreliable. I kept up with all 3 sets of the joint services tests. The Beretta came out on top of all of them for reliability with the possible exception of the Sig P226.

It may be the most reliable pistol ever made. The locking system with dropping blocks from notches in each side of the slide allows the magazine to feed directly into the chamber instead of needing to hit a feed ramp.

If I had to choose one right now in .45 cal. it would be the Sig double column model, I think it is the P227 but not certain.

They could go back to the M1911.


18 posted on 08/03/2014 9:25:55 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: AlmaKing
Apparently, it’s been fine since 1986 or so according to the article. Then, all of a sudden, it’s not good enough.

No, it wasn't. Typical military weapons procurement. Once done, let the troops deal with the junk. We, the high and mighty weapons procurement bureaucracy, will not be embarrassed.
19 posted on 08/03/2014 9:26:41 PM PDT by 98ZJ USMC
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To: 98ZJ USMC

I don’t know the history, I was just interested by the timing after Beretta announced their move.


20 posted on 08/03/2014 9:29:55 PM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: webcrosby

It’s reliable and accurate. But they chose 9mm for the wrong reasons. The Beretta is also a heavy SOB.


21 posted on 08/03/2014 9:31:30 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: AlmaKing

This is going to be a short thread.


22 posted on 08/03/2014 9:32:10 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: AlmaKing

They’re getting old and worn-out.


23 posted on 08/03/2014 9:32:42 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

FMJ is standard for combat. It might even be required by some treaty or convention.


24 posted on 08/03/2014 9:33:57 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: 98ZJ USMC

The Beretta M9 is not junk. It is one of the finest handguns ever made. It is even more reliable than the old M1911 which is itself very reliable.

The Beretta proved itself in 3 separate rounds of testing and very tough testing at that.


25 posted on 08/03/2014 9:35:04 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: Graewoulf

If you are not going to contribute anything besides the exact same post on every thread on FR, why don’t you go do it on a different forum such as DU or HuffPo? Even pMSNBC!


26 posted on 08/03/2014 9:35:21 PM PDT by Utilizer (Bacon A'kbar! - In world today are only peaceful people, and the muzzle-em's trying to kill them-)
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To: AlmaKing

“a significant contract in an era of declining civilian handgun sales . “

?


27 posted on 08/03/2014 9:37:54 PM PDT by headstamp 2
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To: webcrosby

IIRC, the criteria was compatibility with the euro-weenie 9mm NATO cartridge, and reduced recoil for the anticipated influx of female military. (And now the homosexuals are reaping the benefit of not hurting their wrists)

28 posted on 08/03/2014 9:38:16 PM PDT by doorgunner69
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To: AlmaKing

Hmmmmm, leave Maryland, lose a contract?

Whether or not the 9mm is adequate; from what I understand reliability and accuracy are not issues with the b


29 posted on 08/03/2014 9:41:46 PM PDT by correctthought ("Obamunism is a temporary setback on the road to freedom" - Liberty Prime)
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To: Steely Tom

ppks — i have always liked them. i think the bass pro in harrisburg has one in stainless. i would like rosewood grips.


30 posted on 08/03/2014 9:44:20 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2 (civil law: commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong Blackstone Commentaries I p44)
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To: kvanbrunt2

I’ve been dreaming about a Cougar in .40 cal for a while now. They are now made by Stoeger in Turkey, I think. I believe that a .45 is available. The gun is built on a rotating barrel concept, rather than a drop-down mechanism, and is said to be inherently more accurate. They sell for about $350, maybe $400 now at Academy. I don’t know how Stoeger compares to Beretta as far as quality.


31 posted on 08/03/2014 9:45:09 PM PDT by matthew fuller (This is MUSLIM TERRORIST AWARENESS MONTH.)
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To: Graewoulf

fits right in with the discussion dumb ass.


32 posted on 08/03/2014 9:46:10 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2 (civil law: commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong Blackstone Commentaries I p44)
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To: Cyman
If this Administration gets to decide, a fly swatter.

Not a chance, it might be used to hit someone. Considering mr. mulato, I bet it would be something soft and squishy like him, a marshmallow gun. But it could only shoot colored marshmallows.

33 posted on 08/03/2014 9:47:36 PM PDT by Mastador1 (I'll take a bad dog over a good politician any day!)
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To: smokingfrog

So am I.


34 posted on 08/03/2014 9:49:15 PM PDT by matthew fuller (This is MUSLIM TERRORIST AWARENESS MONTH.)
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To: matthew fuller

Yeah, I don’t know if that was a poorly researched assumption or just wishful thinking on the past of some anti gun liberal. Declining sales my foot...


35 posted on 08/03/2014 9:50:35 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: yarddog
I own a few SIGs and I love them. The 227 is a double stack 10+1. The only problems with SIGs and the reason why they are not more prominent in competition (the only other time when people act like shooting is a matter of life or death) is they have high bore axis and a long trigger reset. That makes high speed controlled fire problematic but still doable with enough training. A less important factor in competition but more important in the field is that they are heavy compared to most other pistols out there, of course that is a factor in why they are accurate and dependable.

If the choice were mine I would go with S&W M&P CORE .40L Pro with RM02 Trijicons, extended threaded barrel, suppressor night sights, suppressor optional. Sure .40 is a compromise but it has proven effective and I like 15+1 over 10+1.

36 posted on 08/03/2014 9:50:35 PM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: AlmaKing

“I don’t know the history, I was just interested by the timing after Beretta announced their move.”

Curious point.


37 posted on 08/03/2014 9:55:41 PM PDT by webcrosby
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To: kvanbrunt2

Walther
You really can’t go wrong with the pistol that killed Hitler, even if just for the happy thoughts!
That’s a flaccid cartridge though: .380/9mm Kurtz? Hard for women to rack the slide, too, if you’re a shemale.


38 posted on 08/03/2014 9:55:51 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: all armed conservatives.)
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To: matthew fuller

the slide rotates the barrel and it took me months to get the barrel out. 45 nothing smaller. flying ashtrays.


39 posted on 08/03/2014 9:55:56 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2 (civil law: commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong Blackstone Commentaries I p44)
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To: tumblindice

they look like they fit nice in pocket. very smooth edges and maybe that was the thot in design


40 posted on 08/03/2014 9:59:50 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2 (civil law: commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong Blackstone Commentaries I p44)
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To: Durus

I have owned several P-226s, a single P-220 and a single P-225

The Sigs fit my hands better than anything other than the Browing Hi-Power. The Browning is still a fine pistol but it’s time has passed. No decocker, single action only, a bit of a complex trigger but that trigger is what allows that great grip.

I would be happy as an iced hog with the Sig P-227 in .45 auto. One of the advanced H&Ks in .45 might also be the right thing.


41 posted on 08/03/2014 10:04:42 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: kvanbrunt2

Oddly enough, the PK was .32 caliber, used by police and the PPK .380 a favorite of Nazi party wheels.
You might look at the Kel Tec 9 mms and Ruger LC9, or the even smaller LCP if you like that caliber. I have a Beretta Tomcat .32 I like very much, DA/SA.
Or the Springfield XDS in 9 mm. The trigger on the Walther is circa 1944. Otherwise a classic piece, but heavy.


42 posted on 08/03/2014 10:08:35 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: all armed conservatives.)
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To: tumblindice

yes the specs show heavy i like the smooth.


43 posted on 08/03/2014 10:18:08 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2 (civil law: commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong Blackstone Commentaries I p44)
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To: yarddog

I’m with ya.

I’ve had my Beretta for almost 20 years, and it still is a great shooting weapon.

And, I CCW it almost every day.


44 posted on 08/03/2014 10:18:45 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (Uninstall Fascist Firefox. Get Pale Moon.)
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To: kvanbrunt2

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/pistols

9MM, .40, .45.


45 posted on 08/03/2014 10:20:02 PM PDT by matthew fuller (This is MUSLIM TERRORIST AWARENESS MONTH.)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Yes, it is in the Geneva Convention under use of expanding or “dum dum” bullets as they used to be called.


46 posted on 08/03/2014 10:22:28 PM PDT by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Interesting. But with fmj you lose some of the advantages of a larger caliber. I suppose there is more penetration, if that’s what they are looking for.


47 posted on 08/03/2014 10:25:19 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Geneva Convention requires FMJ ammo. Thus the movie. I have many rounds of mil-surp ammo in many calibers, it is all FMJ.


48 posted on 08/03/2014 10:30:21 PM PDT by Jack Black ( Disarmament of a targeted group is one of the surest early warning signs of future genocide.)
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To: matthew fuller
"a significant contract in an era of declining civilian handgun sales ."

Maybe the author will read this thread. And cry.

The Dem/libs have been engaging in a steady push to infringe on our right
to keep and bear arms for decades. And this is how it has been working out
for them in the last two decades...

And in the last two months... (Nov. 2012 and Dec. 2012)

And it continues...

And there is more...

And more...

MOLON LAVE! WE'LL BUY MILLIONS MORE. ;-)

49 posted on 08/03/2014 10:45:35 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" means something different to 0bama.)
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To: webcrosby

“What kind of tests did the Pentagon put the Beretta through that they couldn’t figure it out before they decided to buy it?”

I have read that the major criterion was that it had to be “compatible” with the NATO countries. Since they all use 9mm, we settled on that round. Beretta makes fine guns, but 9mm was a step backward for our military.


50 posted on 08/03/2014 11:01:58 PM PDT by vette6387
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