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Ukraine forces clash with armoured convoy crossing Russia border: Kiev
AFP ^ | 2014/08/25

Posted on 08/25/2014 2:47:31 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster

Ukraine forces clash with armoured convoy crossing Russia border: Kiev

"The Ukrainian border has been breached by a convoy of several dozen tanks and armoured vehicles" …

Kiev (AFP) - Ukraine said a battle erupted on Monday between border guards and a convoy of "dozens" of armoured vehicles and tanks that entered its territory from Russia near the Azov Sea.

"The Ukrainian border has been breached by a convoy of several dozen tanks and armoured vehicles" which crossed in the area close to Ukraine's industrial city Mariupol, security spokesman Leonid Matyukhin told AFP.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: russia; ukraine
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 08/25/2014 2:47:31 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Mariupol as a possible target mentioned earlier in the day in a tweet, but seems the Russians are still doing the whole "These aren't really Russian soldiers. They have no insignia, see?":

Myroslava Petsa @myroslavapetsa Follow In #Amvrosiyivka #Russia's soldiers without insignia spotted, 250 armored vehicles built up for a possible attack on #Mariupol, #Novoazovsk 4:56 AM - 24 Aug 2014

2 posted on 08/25/2014 2:55:56 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Well, if I’m not mistaking, the last “Russian” convoy has turned to be Ukrainian.

16.08.2014 War in Ukraine.The defeat of Ukrainian troops in Stepanovka part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alKhKWKjW_4


3 posted on 08/25/2014 3:57:20 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
Well, if I’m not mistaking, the last “Russian” convoy has turned to be Ukrainian.

Russkie convoys crossing from Russia into Ukraine are not "Ukrainian" convoys, Russkie propagandist, which have been confirmed by NATO, and even witnessed by western and even Russian journalists. And your video is worthless. Do you think we speak Russian and can translate it?

4 posted on 08/25/2014 4:08:39 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

~Russkie convoys crossing from Russia into Ukraine are not “Ukrainian” convoys, Russkie propagandist, which have been confirmed by NATO, and even witnessed by western and even Russian journalists. And your video is worthless. Do you think we speak Russian and can translate it?~

A picture worth a thousand words. BTW, you can clearly see where the rebels are getting their so-called “Russian” equipment.


5 posted on 08/25/2014 4:17:52 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I guess we are supposed to believe these tanks have all been built recently by the rebels! lol


6 posted on 08/25/2014 4:27:21 AM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: wetphoenix
A picture worth a thousand words.

A bunch of wrecks being commented on by what looks like Russkies? How does that prove that Russia isn't sending convoys over and that everybody is lying about seeing Russia do just that?

BTW, you can clearly see where the rebels are getting their so-called “Russian” equipment.

At this point I considered posting a photo of a Russian BTR with the logo of the Russian airborne on it, but I figured you'd just say "the Ukrainians painted it."

7 posted on 08/25/2014 4:28:11 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: GeronL

Yes, latest in Russian separatist innovation. They run exclusively on vodka, just like their drivers.


8 posted on 08/25/2014 4:29:13 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

~At this point I considered posting a photo of a Russian BTR with the logo of the Russian airborne on it, but I figured you’d just say “the Ukrainians painted it.”~

In fact I haven’t said a thing back when, but it is actually a Soviet VDV logo. Modern Ukraine is using it as well. By the way, there is a HUMVEE in this wrecked column. None are in Russian inventory.
And BTRs aren’t used with VDV as well. You can’t airdrop it.


9 posted on 08/25/2014 4:35:11 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
All sane people in the world know that the whole mess is Russian inspired/commanded/vastly supported with manpower, hardware, supply and money. If vehicle x is Russian or not is totally irrelevant, Kremlin has made a decision to “punish” Ukraine as they “dared” to walk out of stinking closet the “Russian world” is and that's what they do each and every day, thousands of people die but chauvinistic imbeciles are cheering because “Russia is rising from her knees”. A good thing is that the whole crap will, rather sooner than later, collapse under its own weight. And then... :)))
10 posted on 08/25/2014 7:02:06 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246

If the Crimea is not a part of a discussion I sincerely believe there is no direct involvement by Russian government. True, they might be overlooking the border and not doing much to stop some freaks who are getting into Ukraine but nothing more than that.


11 posted on 08/25/2014 7:25:13 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Russkie convoys crossing from Russia into Ukraine are not "Ukrainian" convoys....

Who knew the Russians are incapable, with 25,000 troops on that border, to keep the Ukrainians from crossing into Russia and reentering Ukraine at will? LOL

I just want this war to end, one way or the other, so that our Kremlin shills shut up for a while.

12 posted on 08/25/2014 7:35:02 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: wetphoenix
Nothing more than recruiting them in Moscow, training them in Rostov, and equipping them before they are pointed west. If that is not direct involvement, nothing is.
13 posted on 08/25/2014 7:41:56 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

It is not necessarily done by the government. But government might be involved too.


14 posted on 08/25/2014 7:49:30 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
Either done by the Russian government, or allowed by the Russian government. The word "might" should not be seen anywhere near your comment.

Frankly, the Kremlin's ability to pull the wool over some people's eyes by splitting hairs between active and passive involvement is astounding. Then again, those people aren't very smart to begin with . . . .

15 posted on 08/25/2014 7:58:18 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

You are still ignoring locals involved.


16 posted on 08/25/2014 8:05:40 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: 1rudeboy

Chances are they are Russian soldiers pretending to be separatists.


17 posted on 08/25/2014 8:09:54 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious they are trying hard to ignore.)
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To: AppyPappy

Zero evidence so far.


18 posted on 08/25/2014 8:11:55 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
Even if I was, and I am not, in what fashion does "ignoring locals" (and their involvement) speak to Russian involvement?

It doesn't. And it's comments such as yours that lead to the inevitable Kremlin tool vs. useful idiot comments. So, right now, are you being a tool, or an idiot?

19 posted on 08/25/2014 8:16:23 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

~So, right now, are you being a tool, or an idiot? ~

Your screen name speaks for yourself. The answer is none. In fact neither Ukraine nor Russia are alien to me. I don’t think that things in the East of Ukraine are justified to the very end but I’m surely see a bigger picture than you there.


20 posted on 08/25/2014 8:29:44 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
Listen, when someone tries deliberately to be obtuse, or change the subject, then I have no problem with living up to the alternate meaning of my screen name.

You may have forgotten that last week, you were arguing that the existing (at the time) Status of Forces Agreement permitted Russian troops to operate in Crimea. Sadly for you, I went and read it. Then I tried to determine where you received your false information, and learned that it was one of the arguments made by the Russian Ambassador to the U.N.

So my money is on "tool."

21 posted on 08/25/2014 8:37:05 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Where had I changed a subject, rude? And what exactly is false in my information? Russian naval personnel had right to be there for sure. I’m not sure if it was legal to participate in seizure of bases from their fellow Ukrainian airmen and sailors, but their presence on the peninsula was legal for sure.


22 posted on 08/25/2014 8:45:19 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
Where had I changed a subject, rude?

Your comment #16. The subject was Russia's involvement.

Russian naval personnel had right to be there for sure.

This is where you become obtuse. Russian soldiers had the right to be on their bases (and probably had the right to be on liberty outside of them), but they most assuredly did not have the right to be armed, agitating the locals, and seizing random buildings.

23 posted on 08/25/2014 8:51:01 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Comment #16 is not a change of subject as far you are portraying Ukrainian conflict as a pure NSW between Ukraine and Russia.
A presence of insurgency is what makes you wrong on that.

And as for me being obtuse you were drawing parallels between East Ukraine and Crimea when I said there weren’t any evidence of Russian military presence in the East. Your arguments were that Russian presence were denied as well in Crimea at the time too.
I don’t think that your argument is legit and I’m obtuse for a reason that unlike Crimea, East of Ukraine has no legal Russian presence at all. It is simply silly to deny an obvious presence of marines in Crimea where you could see men wearing their uniform missing only insignias and riding in their specific vehicles. And it is as stupid to cluesly claim Russian presence in Donetsk, when most of the fighters are older bearded guys, wearing unmatched surplus camo, armed with different non-standard weapons, including Mosin and SKS phased six decades ago, using Ukrainian army heavy equipment and so on.


24 posted on 08/25/2014 9:12:01 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix; Tailgunner Joe; SunkenCiv; 1rudeboy; Grzegorz 246; Greetings_Puny_Humans; GeronL; ...

Hi wetphoenix,

May we have your comments on the new Russian GRU unit for liquidation of foreign political leaders?

http://vichivisam.ru/?p=11553


25 posted on 08/25/2014 9:39:14 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: wetphoenix
There ya' go again--the subject is your claim that there is no "direct" Russian involvement. Stating that locals are involved also does not negate the fact that there is.

You appear to be arguing that there won't be Russian involvement until Russian troops cross the border singing "Kalinka." Seriously, how finely can you split that hair?

And I will remind you that the shills were arguing "there were no Russians forces operating in Crimea" as long as the Kremlin denied it. Once the Kremlin admitted that they were, they switched to arguing, "well, wasn't it obvious?"

The only question remaining is, will they do the same here?

26 posted on 08/25/2014 9:51:26 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Red Cross Says Ukraine Conflict Is War, MH17 Could Be A War Crime

The International Committee of the Red Cross has made the legal decision that the conflict in Ukraine is officially and international war. This means that crimes committed as part of the conflict could be tried as war crimes — including the downing of flight MH17.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukrainian-liveblog-day-189-is-there-a-russian-invasion/#3941


27 posted on 08/25/2014 10:28:41 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

And Obama says nothing, goes back to playing golf!


28 posted on 08/25/2014 11:26:39 AM PDT by JSDude1
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To: wetphoenix
Heh, I thought these were relief supplies? LOL
29 posted on 08/25/2014 3:09:36 PM PDT by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: wetphoenix; 1rudeboy
Oi vei, how can you keep denying this? Zakharchenko (new defense minister or whatever he is of DNR) said it. There are now fresh graves in in Pskov. Ukrainian Defense minister is asking Russian mothers to go pick up their kids
30 posted on 08/25/2014 4:38:30 PM PDT by Ivan Mazepa
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To: wetphoenix
It is not necessarily done by the government. But government might be involved too.

You're stupid Russkie. How do non-government entities get massive amounts of military weapons and armor and pass them through Russian controlled border checkpoints?

From the AP, as mentioned on the Interpreter:

AP reporters say convoys of military weaponry and supplies have been coming from the direction of Russia into rebel-held Ukraine. Rebel fighters also described how Russian border guards did nothing to stop them.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukrainian-liveblog-day-189-is-there-a-russian-invasion/

Even the separatists admit they are getting aid and soldiers from Russia. They even said a week or so ago that they had received 1,200 soldiers fresh from Russia:

"Pro-Russian separatists announced 1,200 troops and 150 vehicles including tanks trained in Russia will join their increasingly desperate fight against the Ukrainian military. Separatist leader Alexander Zakharchenko, who made the announcement in a video, did not specify the origins of the troops or weapons."

http://www.ibtimes.com/ukraine-1200-soldiers-150-armored-vehicles-joining-separatists-after-russian-training-1660570

I know Russia is economically somewhere on the level of Africa, but I don't think I can believe that they are such a lawless country that random citizens of Russia are able to conduct military training, get ahold of "150 armored vehicles," and then march them through Russia and into Ukraine, without the government having something to do with it.

You're denials are simply idiotic and slavish.

31 posted on 08/25/2014 5:24:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Ivan Mazepa

It is something this time, it is better than fake documents published by SBU earlier, but I still don’t believe a thing from both sides here.
If it’s true I don’t think it is too smart to annex parts of Ukraine. It was looted and underdeveloped for decades and would took hundreds of billion dollars to bring up to standard. Not to mention crowds of unreformed commies residing there who somehow managed to maintain their aggressive entitlement mentality for all these years.


32 posted on 08/25/2014 5:41:48 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

~I know Russia is economically somewhere on the level of Africa, but I don’t think I can believe that they are such a lawless country that random citizens of Russia are able to conduct military training, get ahold of “150 armored vehicles,” and then march them through Russia and into Ukraine, without the government having something to do with it.~

Yep, true, Africa and one of top global economies so far.

And by the way from a video in my post you can see rebels have got a dozen pieces of heavy equipment from the Ukrainian military. In just one isolated incident.


33 posted on 08/25/2014 5:47:01 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
Yep, true, Africa and one of top global economies so far.

Russia's nominal GDP per capita: 14,818 in USD.

Compared to the United States: 53,101.

Like the Soviet Union, the only thing keeping Russia afloat is oil prices. Hence why any Russian with brains is fleeing the country.

And by the way from a video in my post

Your video was and is still worthless, just like your posts in general.

34 posted on 08/25/2014 5:53:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: wetphoenix; Ivan Mazepa
It is something this time, it is better than fake documents published by SBU earlier, but I still don’t believe a thing from both sides here.

You're a liar Russkie, you believe everything Putin tells you to believe, and have been caught vomiting up propaganda straight from your lying Russian sources while simultaneously admitting you knew nothing about the subject. You even go so far as to paint lying Russkies as possible Ukrainian agents who have snuck into the noble ranks of the DNR.

Shut up Russkie with your whole "I don't believe both sides".

35 posted on 08/25/2014 5:56:00 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

~Russia’s nominal GDP per capita: 14,818 in USD.

Compared to the United States: 53,101.

Like the Soviet Union, the only thing keeping Russia afloat is oil prices. Hence why any Russian with brains is fleeing the country.~

Compare the total national GDP to Saudi Arabia, which has similar oil output to prove you wrong.
Also 15,000 PPP per capita is that makes a country into a first world. It is between 15 and 20,000 for Russia.
Not to mention it is mostly drugged down by a few depressive provinces: stans and a some commie-infested ‘red states’ bordering Ukraine. If not for them a GDP per capita would be around $30,000 on par with Finland, Israel and South Korea.
And if we are talking about West Siberia it is clearly ahead of US average.


36 posted on 08/25/2014 6:09:44 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
Compare the total national GDP to Saudi Arabia, which has similar oil output to prove you wrong.

Saudi Arabia: 24,847 per capita. Even they're a little better off. We're not worried about the total since we want to know what the average income of a Russian is. As in Saudi Arabia, much of that "total national GDP" is being accumulated by a small number of people, namely the Kleptocrats connected with the regime. Aside from a city like Moscow, most Russians live in tremendous poverty in comparison to western nations.

"The report presents some startling findings concerning Russia. The gulf between Russia’s haves and have nots is ever widening. Despite increases in Russian household wealth from an annual $1,650 in 2000 to $11,900 today, a mere 110 billionaires own 35 percent of Russia’s $1.2 trillion in household wealth. According to the report, 93.7 percent of the population owns $10,000 or less, and dispelling the notion of a monetary middle class, a paltry 5.6 percent own between $10,000 and $100,000. Poverty fell over the last decade, but inequality rose. “Russia has the highest level of wealth inequality in the world, apart from small Caribbean nations with resident billionaires,” the report concludes. The report’s authors seem surprised by this wealth concentration. Perhaps it’s because they ascribe to the ideological notion that Russia’s transition from communism to capitalism should have produced a vibrant middle class. “At the time of transition there were hopes that Russia would convert to a high skilled, high income economy with strong social protection programs inherited from Soviet Union days. This is almost a parody of what happened in practice,” the reports states with its own parody of a tired tenet of liberal teleology."

http://readrussia.com/2013/10/10/russias-widening-wealth-inequality/

This isn't much better than Mexico and Brazil, who have GDPs per capita of 9,000 to 11,000 respectively.

37 posted on 08/25/2014 6:31:20 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

~Saudi Arabia: 24,847 per capita. Even they’re a little better off. We’re not worried about the total since we want to know what the average income of a Russian is. As in Saudi Arabia, much of that “total national GDP” is being accumulated by a small number of people, namely the Kleptocrats connected with the regime. Aside from a city like Moscow, most Russians live in tremendous poverty in comparison to western nations.~

I haven’t posted it to show that average Russian is better off than a Saudi.
It was about to call your petrocracy bullcrap.
Compare a population of Saudi Arabia and Russia now and you’ll see that oil it not a single driver for the latter.

~According to the report, 93.7 percent of the population owns $10,000 or less, and dispelling the notion of a monetary middle class, a paltry 5.6 percent own between $10,000 and $100,000. ~

LOL. That is why a barely decent property in my city starts at $200,000 and you won’t find even a crack house under $70,000.

In Moscow you’ll need around $300,000 to start at ghetto.


38 posted on 08/25/2014 6:48:19 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
It was about to call your petrocracy bullcrap.

Kleptocracy, you illiterate Russkie. I did not say petrocracy. My word means rule by thieves.

That is why a barely decent property in my city

Who cares about your city? We are talking about the average in Russia, which isn't limited to Moscow and whatever gutter you were spawned from.

39 posted on 08/25/2014 6:55:46 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

My city is just slightly above average nationwide in home prices. And the majority of Russians are living in cities.


40 posted on 08/25/2014 7:37:44 PM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix; SunkenCiv; gandalftb; nuconvert

Russia is a third world country:

Russian export in 2013 was $526.4 billion

Top ten breakdown:
Mineral fuels including oil: $304,559,452,000 (57.9% of total exports)
Iron and steel: $20,050,729,000 (3.8%)
Pearls, gems, precious metals and coins: $14,367,047,000 (2.7%)
Fertilizers: $9,119,157,000 (1.7%)
Machinery: $8,815,393,000 (1.7%)
Wood: $7,324,251,000 (1.4%)
Aluminum: $7,181,742,000 (1.4%)
Inorganic chemicals: $5,009,209,000 (1%)
Copper: $4,962,945,000 (0.9%)
Electronic equipment: $4,914,638,000 (0.9%)

http://www.worldstopexports.com/russias-top-10-exports/2350

This is a typical third world export mix heavily dependent on raw materials.

Compare this to South Korea with a total export of $559.6 billion in 2013 (i.e. larger than Russia)

Top ten breakdown:

Electronic equipment: $135,502,617,000 (24.2% of total exports)
Vehicles excluding trains and streetcars: $72,783,929,000 (13%)
Machinery: $59,327,144,000 (10.6%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $54,093,985,000 (9.7%)
Optical, technical and medical apparatus: $35,946,520,000 (6.4%)
Ships, boats and other floating structures: $35,845,842,000 (6.4%)
Plastics: $31,179,306,000 (5.6%)
Organic chemicals: $24,855,250,000 (4.4%)
Iron and steel: $22,275,412,000 (4%)
Iron or steel products: $11,181,093,000 (2%)

http://www.worldstopexports.com/south-koreas-top-10-exports/2302

figures from 2012 : http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3137205/posts?page=67#67

What will happen when the price of oil shrinks to, say, 80?

http://seekingalpha.com/news/1951615-ending-oil-export-ban-would-mean-cheaper-gasoline-conoco-exec-says?uprof=23


41 posted on 08/26/2014 12:33:42 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith

Are you a neo-mercantilist or what? Don’t you think there is an economy beyond exports exist? Considering a trade deficit with China, how would you rate US economy following your beliefs?


42 posted on 08/26/2014 12:43:59 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix
The export of a product from a country reflects the competitiveness this product has compared to similar products from other countries. The advantages could be price, quality etc.

Obviously Russia has advantages in exporting raw materials, not manufactured goods.

43 posted on 08/26/2014 1:13:29 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith

And yep the share of manufacturing in total economy is not much differs from the United States.


44 posted on 08/26/2014 1:17:22 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

“And yep the share of manufacturing in total economy is not much differs from the United States.”

No, It is easy to check the facts:

In 2013 exports from the United States amounted to US$1.579 trillion

United States Top 10 Exports

1. Machinery: $213,108,199,000 (13.5% of total exports)
2. Electronic equipment: $165,604,449,000 (10.5%)
3. Mineral fuels including oil: $148,426,743,000 (9.4%)
4. Vehicles excluding trains and streetcars: $133,640,479,000 (8.5%)
5. Aircraft and spacecraft: $115,380,944,000 (7.3%)
6. Optical, technical and medical apparatus: $84,281,276,000 (5.3%)
7. Pearls, precious stones, precious metals and coins: $72,830,232,000 (4.6%)
8. Plastics: $60,836,970,000 (3.9%)
9. Organic chemicals: $46,510,903,000 (2.9%)
10. Pharmaceutical products: $39,742,717,000 (2.5%)

http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-states-top-10-exports/2001


45 posted on 08/26/2014 1:56:23 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith

Apples and Oranges. I’m talking about economy in general. If something is not exported it doesn’t mean it is not exist at all.


46 posted on 08/26/2014 2:02:50 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

Please send a link to a site or an article that describes the type of statistics that you are referring to. A site in Russian is OK.


47 posted on 08/26/2014 4:30:22 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith

try CIA factbook to start with.


48 posted on 08/26/2014 4:37:12 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: AdmSmith
BTW, here is a graphics to watch through a growth of oil exporters who has about the same economic weight around 2000. Not that bad for a non-producing cleptocracy, isn't it?
49 posted on 08/26/2014 4:43:51 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: wetphoenix

Thanks for the link http://voprosik.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/12.png that shows the growth of the economy since 1999 to 2011.

You should at the same time look on the oil price during that period. Check my “about page”. Every time when the oil price is low Russia is reforming and when it is high Russia is wasting its money. Next year it looks as if the oil price will go down well below 100, and this will have consequences. As Putin is slashing the pensions and the health budget for the military it will be domestic problems.

I feel sorry for the ordinary Russians.


50 posted on 08/26/2014 5:02:15 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


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