Skip to comments.Florida Open Carry Case Appealed to U.S. Supreme Court
Posted on 07/17/2017 12:02:09 PM PDT by marktwain
The Dale Norman open carry case in Florida has been appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. Most cases that are appealed to the Supreme Court are refused. The case started back in 2012, when Dale Lee Norman walked down the street with his pistol showing. He had recently obtained his concealed carry permit, and did not realize that his firearm was completely exposed.
He was convicted of the open carry of a firearm. His case was appealed to the 4th Circuit court of appeals. The state Advocate General fought very hard to keep the case from being appealed. The case made it all the way to the Florida Supreme Court which ruled against Norman, 4-2, in a mixed decision.
The petition to the U.S. Supreme Court came slightly more than four months after the Florida Supreme Court, in a 4-2 decision, upheld the longstanding law. Monday's 35-page petition contends the law violates the Second Amendment and conflicts with U.S. Supreme Court rulings about gun rights.
The issue is whether a prohibition on peaceably and openly carrying a lawfully-owned handgun infringes on `the right of the people to . . . bear arms' protected by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, said the petition, posted on the website of the group Florida Carry, which has helped represent Dale Norman, the man arrested in St. Lucie County.
The case was decided on the controversial basis of intermediate scrutiny.
The lowest form of scrutiny of law by federal courts is rational scrutiny virtually all laws are held to be Constitutional under that basis. The only requirement under rational scrutiny is that the legislature could have believed the law had
(Excerpt) Read more at ammoland.com ...
With luck, President Trump will appoint another justice before that case is decided.
“the right to ... bear arms” means you may (if the government in its sole discretion deigns to sell you an expensive permit)...carry your pistol from your bedroom to your bathroom?
because King George’s entire invasion force is hiding in there
Also at some point, a decision is going to have to be made as what constitutes “concealed”. For example, If I have a holster with a flap (think civil war holster) is that concealed? What about a carry posture that prints and is obvious but is covered (tight polo shirt over IWB carry)?
I remember when it was open-carry here in SFL. Back when I was too young and stupid and naive and indoctrinated. Used to think that guy carrying his 357 on his belt was a nut.
If I have a holster with a flap (think civil war holster) is that concealed?
Same scenario with a slightly more recent CZ pistol holster.
>>Also at some point, a decision is going to have to be made as what constitutes concealed. For example, If I have a holster with a flap (think civil war holster) is that concealed? What about a carry posture that prints and is obvious but is covered (tight polo shirt over IWB carry)?
I agree. FL needs to change Concealed to Covered and holster manufacturers will take care of the rest.
re: “The case started back in 2012, when Dale Lee Norman walked down the street with his pistol showing. He had recently obtained his concealed carry permit, and did not realize that his firearm was completely exposed.”
Poor planning on HIS part, does not create an emergency court case on MY part.
By 2012, there existed over 6,000 videos of ‘for citizens by citizens’, of what constitutes “good concealed carry methods”, available for free on YouTube.
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in 2008 the U.S. Supreme Court revisited the issue in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller (07-290). The plaintiff in Heller challenged the constitutionality of the Washington D.C. handgun ban, a statute that had stood for 32 years. Many considered the statute the most stringent in the nation. In a 5-4 decision, the Court, meticulously detailing the history and tradition of the Second Amendment at the time of the Constitutional Convention, proclaimed that the Second Amendment established an individual right for U.S. citizens to possess firearms and struck down the D.C. handgun ban as violative of that right.
Effectively, under Heller, we have an individual right to keep and bear arms ........ inside our homes.
More especially, it cannot be believed that the large slaveholding States regarded them as included in the word citizens, or would have consented to a Constitution which might compel them to receive them in that character from another State. For if they were so received, and entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens, it would exempt them from the operation of the special laws and from the police regulations which they considered to be necessary for their own safety. It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognized as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went. And all of this would be done in the face of the subject race of the same color, both free and slaves, and inevitably producing discontent and insubordination among them, and endangering the peace and safety of the State.
Here in Virginia, we have free open carry and permitted concealed carry. Incidental exposure of a concealed firearm is not a crime. Intentionally exposing a concealed weapon to induce fear is brandishing and is a crime.
Whenever I go someplace else, I have to worry about things like printing and accidental exposure of my sidearm, which I think is stupid. Other states should just allow open carry and be done with making criminals out of citizens.
I don’t like it, but...
...he’s likely to lose. Why?
The USSC can simply deny cert, thereby cementing the existing result (at least for Florida). Alternatively, the Court could take the case, and easily rule that the state provided a means by which he could bear his arm(s) outside of his home - and he already HAD a permit for that. Thus, according to this (NOT my) reasoning, the state denied him nothing. The latter is a worse result, because it’ll be a definitive denial of a 2nd Amendment right.
I personally believe that anything that was permitted in 1791 - and, arguably, open carry WAS - should be permitted now, the argument being that to be a “right” a thing must apply across all places at all times throughout US history (well, since the adoption of the Constitution or whatever Amendment one is addressing at that moment). Thus, for example, if one John Smith, US citizen, could carry openly in a state at the time the 2nd Amendment was adopted, I believe that John Smith’s 5th great grandchildren should be able to do the same right now, in any jurisdiction within the United States. Similarly, if my grandfathers could have walked into a hardware store in 1933 and purchased a full auto firearm and a 50-round drum magazine with no background check, no tax stamp and no chief LEO approval, so should I be able to do so right now - in any state. But I don’t make the rules.
Now Texas has open carry for those with a CHL (concealed handgun license).
I’m not particularly a fan of open carry FOR MYSELF, as in a city or suburb (where I live) that will only make me a target in the local Stop’N’Rob, but I certainly want others to be able to peacefully exercise that right if they’d like to do so. I, myself, would open carry in a rural setting.
The best thing for me - short term (as in, before I buy a ranch) - is that if I inadvertently print or expose my firearm, now with open carry I will not be committing a crime. Of course, Constitutionally, I don’t think that anyone should even need a permit for any kind of carry, and that it should be nationwide, but no one is consulting me on the law.
Floridians CAN openly carry. There’s a portion of the statutes that permits open carry to and from fishing or hunting. I’ve openly carried many times with fishing gear in tow, and the local LEOs have done nothing more than ask a few questions. I’ve never been put in cuffs or otherwise been in legal trouble as a result. YMMV
Concealed carry was also common and did not require a permit in 1791.
There were no laws against concealed carry for another 30 years!
And while they're at it, can they address "shall not be infringed"?
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