Posted on 09/11/2017 8:26:49 AM PDT by searching123
Like the language you've been using regarding the John Birchers? (And, for the record, no I am not now, nor have I ever been, a JBS member).
My attitude is, if something's a true and accurate statement, then it's a true and accurate statement. Period.
So, if I understand your comment correctly, the ONLY thing we need to focus upon in our country is “the delusional lying left” because activists on the right-side of the political spectrum never lie and never do anything dishonorable or disreputable?
IS that your position?
IF the only problem faced in our country is the “delusional lying left” — then I suppose you would advocate deny the vote to anybody YOU consider to be left-wing AND they should also NOT be allowed to run for political office — right? I mean-—why allow “delusional” people or congenital “liars” to have any influence or control over our national life? Right??
What is your evidence for the JBS being “infiltrated by leftists 20 years ago or so”??
What original JBS positions (from 1958-1997) have changed as a consequence of that alleged “infiltration”??
What do “leftists” inside the JBS want to accomplish? Is their presence known to (and ignored by) all the JBS officials who monitor member activities?
Desert Rhino: The JBS underwent a major internal crisis during the 1990’s and its membership was reduced to approximately 14,000 dues-paying people.
However — as is the case with all ideological groups — there are always about 5 to 10 times as many “state-of-mind” members as actual dues-paying members.
In recent years, the JBS has been growing again - and is probably in the neighborhood of 25,000-30,000 members.
However, I would remind you that political extremist organizations do NOT require any huge number of people to be successful.
For example: Most of the successful terrorist attacks which have occurred over the past 10 years have been the result of the actions of small cells (often only 2 or 3 or 4 people).
In addition, radicalization (by left-wing or by right-wing) can be accomplished simply over internet websites or through emails and blogs that are created and maintained by a small number of people.
If you set up a yahoo or google alert on the Birch Society OR about any projects they currently promote — you will discover scores and scores of “hits”.
Furthermore, many JBS members or activists do not even acknowledge that they are JBS members. But they parrot JBS arguments and talking points.
Consequently, you can never know for certain who is a JBS member who is presenting information which they know originated with the JBS versus someone who is just repeating something they read—without even knowing it originated with the JBS.
Revilo Oliver was not always honest about his background.
Most of his publications and his admirers declare that:
“During World War II, Dr. Oliver was Director of Research in a highly secret agency of the War Department, and was cited for outstanding service to his country.”
AND
“During his World War II service in the Army Signal Corps, Oliver came to be in charge of a rapidly expanding department, and advanced from Analyst to Director of Research (eventually responsible for the work of about 175 persons.”)
However, I obtained the FBI files on Oliver along with his service records from the National Personnel Records Center. Neither reflect that Oliver was ever a Supervisor or “Director of Research” of anything! All documents refer to him simply as an Analyst.
After he left the John Birch Society, Oliver associated himself with blatantly anti-semitic and neo-nazi organizations and publications such as George Dietz’s publication, ‘’Liberty Bell’’, and William Pierce’s National Alliance. [Prior to organizing the National Alliance, Pierce was the editor of the American Nazi Party journal, “National Socialist World”.]
Some people object to describing Oliver as a “fascist” or as a “national socialist”. I recommend a careful reading of Oliver’s many articles published in the frankly pro-nazi magazine ‘’Liberty Bell’’.
Below is an excerpt from a November 1988 article that gives Oliver’s interpretation of the “Mass Sedition Trial” of the 1940’s — during which the Justice Department under FDR sought prosecution of numerous individuals who were thought to be pro-nazi.
You may read the entire article at: http://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/No_Escape.html
“The Sedition Trial in 1944 made it obvious, and indubitable to anyone willing to think critically about it, that the United States had been surreptitiously captured by the Jews and their Communist barbarians. At that time, the Americans, or a tiny but determined minority of them, amounting perhaps to one-tenth of one percent of the population, could have retaken their country. Instead, for forty-four years, the Americans watched in idiotic apathy the dismantling of their industry, the confiscation of money and its replacement by trading stamps of no intrinsic value, the sabotage and defilement of their culture, the use of their schools to abort children’s minds and destroy innate character, their ever increasing subjugation to a ruthless bureaucracy, the gradual elimination of every right their ancestors had enjoyed as freemen, and the wholesale importation into their country of both anthropoid garbage and shrewd racial enemies by the Judaeo-Communist conspiracy.
Oliver also wrote:
“One of the most important articles ever published in Liberty Bell is Ivor Benson’s ‘The Immigration Riddle Unwrapped’ in the issue for April 1988, which makes it clear that the importation of niggers and wogs into Britain was organized and financed by a conspiracy. It is clear that the Jews, having found it impractical to carry out the plan to exterminate all Germans, which was prematurely announced by Kaufmann in Germany Must Perish! (reprint available from Liberty Bell Publications, $4.00 + postage), have resorted to the more gradual method of exterminating the Aryans in all of their countries by running in hordes of sub-humans and eventually dissolving Aryan blood in a fetid mass of mindless mongrels. Aryans, their minds rotted by Christianity, grin idiotically as they see prepared the biological graves to which their children are destined. The present influx of Chinese and Japanese, who are buying up large parts of the United States and Canada, is, of course, an entirely different phenomenon. They belong to a highly intelligent and civilized race, and they, of course, feel only contempt for the Aryan idiots who have, in effect, given away their property by sabotaging their own industrial capacity; they will not debase their own blood by marrying Aryan fools. The influx of Mongolians is encouraged by the Jews, since it hastens the liquidation of the Aryan nation; what will happen when the interests of the two intelligent races no longer coincide is anyone’s guess.)”
Actually, Sub, I have frequently exchanged emails with Dr. John Earl Haynes and Dr. Harvey Klehr about their research which is cited in the article link you provided.
The premise of the author is entirely false. Liberals DID NOT “steadfastly claim” that reports of Communist espionage activities within the U.S. were not true.
Apparently, you cannot distinguish between two propositions:
1. Acknowledging that Communists engaged in espionage activities within the U.S. does NOT mean
2. One must accept as accurate and truthful and reasonable EVERY statement ever made on the subject by low-information or highly ideological people with an axe to grind.
Dr. Haynes and Dr. Klehr are among the first people to acknowledge (for example) that the assertions made by Senator Joseph McCarthy were wildly exaggerated and in some cases totally false.
Similarly, FBI investigative files falsify many of the arguments made by Birch Society members concerning the extent of “Communist infiltration” into our society — and, particularly, into our government.
The FBI received so many letters from concerned citizens who read Birch Society literature that claimed the U.S. was “60 to 80% under Communist influence and control”, that, ultimately, J. Edgar Hoover approved release of an official statement under his name to address that hysteria.
This is what Hoover observed:
“The Communist Party in this country has attempted to infiltrate and subvert every segment of our society, but its continuing efforts have not achieved success of any substance. Too many self-styled experts on communism, without valid credentials and without any access whatsoever to classified factual data regarding the inner workings of the conspiracy, have engaged in rumor-mongering and hurling false and wholly unsubstantiated allegations against persons whose views differ from their own. This is dangerous business. It is divisive and unintelligent, and makes more difficult the task of the professional investigator.”
When former FBI Special Agents (like Cleon Skousen and Dan Smoot) traveled the country giving speeches and promoting their books or other publications — the FBI became concerned that ordinary Americans were starting to believe the FALSE statements and assertions made by these guys because of their association with the FBI.
At one point, the Chief Inspector of the FBI (the FBI’s expert about the communist movement and he later became Assistant Director of the FBI’s Domestic Intelligence Division) wrote a memo to his boss stating:
“As we know, Skousen, when he was in the FBI, did not concentrate in the field of communism. However, he has been giving lectures on the subject around the country, and during the past year has affiliated himself with the extreme right-wing groups under the leadership of Frederick Schwartz [sic] of Texas. The above, to me, is another example of why a sound, scholarly textbook on communism by the Director is urgently and badly needed.” [HQ 67-69602, #311; 7/29/61 memo from Sullivan to Belmont.]
In October 1961 Skousen participated as a speaker in an “anti-communism school” in New Orleans under the auspices of the Christian Anti-Communism Crusade. Ed Palmer, a local television station (WDSU-TV) commentator contacted the Bureau concerning “a number of startling and unbelievable charges” made by Skousen during his speech.
One of Skousen’s assertions was that “Harry Hopkins in 1943 had turned over to the Russians 50 suitcases of information concerning the Manhattan Project.”
Palmer asked for confirmation that Skousen actually had been an FBI Special Agent. A Bureau memo discussing this controversy states:
“Apparently Skousen, Schwarz, et al are becoming more and more irresponsible and have apparently succumbed to the philosophy that the ends justify the means.” [HQ file 94-47468, no serial #; 10/26/61 memo from C.D. DeLoach to Mr. Mohr regarding W. Cleon Skousen Statements on Communism, New Orleans Louisiana 10-24-61.]
The Bureau received another inquiry concerning Skousen’s assertions regarding Harry Hopkins. An official of the Jefferson Parish (LA) Chamber of Commerce asked Hoover “Is The Naked Communist based entirely on fact? Is the information concerning Harry Hopkins true, especially the part that he obtained and gave to the Russian Communists Top Secret information on the Atomic Bomb and almost half of our supply of refined uranium?”
The file copy of Hoover’s reply contains the following notation:
“It is noted that on page 167 of his book…Skousen states that Harry Hopkins, former aide to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, supplied Russia with a large quantity of uranium during the early 1940’s. Bufiles contain no information to support this charge or to indicate that Hopkins was engaged in subversive activity.” [HQ 94-47468, #37; 11/1/61 Hoover reply to David A. Moynan Jr., Chairman, Operation Americanism of Jefferson Parish Junior Chamber of Commerce, Metairie LA.]
I cite these examples to indicate that not ALL information you confront about Communist “espionage” or “subversion” is accurate or truthful — regardless of what initially seems to be a credible source. The article whose link you provided is NOT a fair or accurate summary.
PapaBear: Can you please QUOTE what I have written which you believe is not fair?
Let’s be VERY clear about something so we don’t misunderstand each other — ok?
When I refer to hostile language - I am NOT referring to legitimate criticism such as when you or I or anybody else presents FACTUAL information to disprove what has been written or said by someone.
I am referring to somebody (or some organization) that ALWAYS describes ALL critics or people with differing views as “liars” who present “smears” — even when they have absolutely NO communication with each other.
Notice (for example), I am NOT resorting to ad hominem slurs or insults against you simply because you challenged something I wrote. More importantly, IF you provide verifiable factual evidence to dispute or falsify something I write — I will WELCOME that information. I won’t immediately dismiss or de-value whatever you present. Of course, I retain the option of disputing what you present IF I believe you are mistaken. (Notice that I used the word MISTAKE — NOT “LIE”).
Furthermore, unlike other conservative organizations, the JBS (and its surrogates who used JBS arguments) have been successfully sued for malicious libel.
The most famous example being when a Chicago lawyer (Elmer Gertz) sued the publishing arm of the Birch Society because a JBS magazine article falsely described Gertz as a “Communist fronter” and a “Leninist” who was engaged in a “conspiracy against Chicago police.”
After 14 years of litigation, including two different jury trials, numerous appeals, and review by the U.S. Supreme Court, the JBS paid Gertz $100,000 in compensatory damages and $300,000 in punitive damages for malice. Punitive damages are only allowed when “malice” can be shown. Malice, in legalese, refers to “reckless disregard for truth” arising from evil intent and a desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering.
As one Appeals Court observed about the JBS article on Gertz:
“There was more than enough evidence for the jury to conclude that this article was published with utter disregard for the truth or falsity of the statements contained in the article about Gertz.” [U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, No. 81-2483, Elmer Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 6/16/82, page 20].
So-—any concerns which you have about MY position should take everything presented above into consideration.
The TakiMag article includes most of that aspect of Oliver’s life. By the end of his career he made it obvious where he stood.
So you are now comparing JBS with murderous terrorist groups?
No — I am not comparing them to terrorist groups. I was commenting about how SMALL NUMBERS of people can, nevertheless, have a MAJOR impact upon our lives.
Why do you resort to such logical fallacies?
I'll try to boil it down for you.
THE political problem in America is the 80% unconstitutional portion of the $4 trillion federal government.
The Enemy Within is the Lying Left that has abandoned the Constitution and whose goal is Global Totalitarian Government.
The Dems are the Obvious Left while the GOP is Left Light.
We the People are facing a Second American Revolution.
The First American Revolution was to defeat tyranny and ESTABLISH the Constitution as the Rule of Law and Supreme Law of the land over the central government.
The Second American Revolution is to defeat the tyranny of the Left and REINSTATE the Constitution as the Rule of Law and Supreme Law of the land over the central government and thereby RECOVER our Free Constitutional Republic.
Huh? The TakiMag article does not report anything whatsoever about what I summarized concerning Oliver’s World War II position, i.e. he never was a “Director of Research” nor do any of his personnel documents describe him as a “Supervisor”.
Furthermore, the TakiMag article only briefly mentions his post-JBS writings and associations.
The point I was attempting to make is that even though Oliver was very well-educated (particularly with respect to classical philology) — he was NOT particularly astute about modern world history as many of his admirers claim.
His views about the degeneracy of the human species and his profound hostility toward religion made him anathema to most conservatives.
Then you basically agree with my previous summary of your position, i.e. ONLY people who share YOUR beliefs and public policy preferences deserve respect or consideration.
Cushing and Welch were friends. Cushing was not a member, so far as I know. He went back and forth on whether he would endorse or recommend the Birch Society.
Deosn’t the TakiMag piece describe Oliver’s overt Nazi sympathizing at the end of his career?
How in the world do you come up with that non-sequitur?
Just a hunch when this society which seemed somewhat noble started becoming whakey in Conspiracy theories echoing similar ideas by Shimanov in the Soviet Union in the 70s.
http://www.jrnyquist.com/letters1.htm
“” They also see how conspiracy theory misses, bypasses, reduces and falsifies the real heart of the modern crisis. And that is also the reason the Birch Society has solved nothing. No genuine solution is possible if you have falsified and over-simplified the problem.
My criticism of conspiracy theory grows more harsh as I look back to the conspiracy theorists I have known. The spiritual essence behind conspiracy theory is a kind of right wing Bolshevism, which is predicated on an unconscious hatred of the rich, famous and powerful. This unconscious hatred gravitates toward conspiracy theory because such theory demonizes those of enviable position. It thereby soothes an inferiority complex by promising relief through “effective action” (which has never proved effective). “”
http://www.jrnyquist.com/ernie’s_report.htm
Ernie is a researcher who knows his subject. I highly recommend his information as an antidote to conspiracism. For those who think the John Birch Society’s message is solid conservatism, a correction is needed. The leadership of the John Birch Society believes that communism is not the real conspiracy or the ultimate enemy. Birch Society leaders do not think China or Russia are serious military threats, but only Potemkin villages meant to scare us into creating a police state here at home. In their view, communism is merely a tool of a greater conspiracy operating through the Masons and other secret societies. Bircher theory holds that all of history, for many centuries, has been directed by a small conspiratorial group. This particular theory has long been discredited by serious scholars. It is similar to the favored conspiracy theories of the Nazi Party under Hitler. It dovetails with the thinking of the Black Hundreds of Russia and the Japanese imperialists. Those under the influence of unacknowledged dark impulses have held structurally similar beliefs about a master conspiracy.
Birch Society founder Robert Welch was secretive about his real beliefs. Eventually Welch gave a speech in which he spoke of “the Illuminati” as the real impetus behind communism. Such statements isolated Welch as a fringe personality, and the Birch Society was marginalized as a result. Before Welch’s beliefs were fully understood, the Birch Society had over 200,000 members. But after his anti-Semitic associations were exposed, and his lunatic theories about communism as a tool of a wider substratum of conspirators was understood, membership fell. Fifty years ago Welch suggested that President Eisenhower was a conspirator. This is the template of Birch Society thinking. The Birch line suggests today that President Bush is the enemy of the American people. The Birch Society denies the necessity of violent revolution to oust the conspiracy from power. They tell everyone who will listen that education is their method. But if our own leaders are the enemy, then revolution is a legitimate option; and that is what their teaching amounts to. It is amazing how this final conclusion correspondents exactly with the final conclusion of communism. — JRN
Everything? Of course not. But the myths of Republican racism, of prevalent white supremacy, of all shootings of black criminals by cops being due to race rather than behavior are a few that have been repeated so often that a substantial portion of the population believes them.
Do you believe that the victims of racial or religious bigotry have the capacity to recognize it?
In other words, whether expressed verbally or in writing....
1. Can a Catholic recognize anti-Catholic sentiments?
2. Can an African-American recognize racist sentiments?
3. Can a Jew recognize anti-Semitism?
4. Can a Christian recognize anti-Christian sentiments?
5. Can an Asian recognize anti-Asian sentiments?
6. Can a Moslem recognize anti-Moslem sentiments?
OR
(a) Alternatively, is it your contention that victims of bigotry DO NOT have the capacity to recognize hatred/prejudice directed toward them?
(b) That, apparently, the victims always have some sort of
intellectual defect which prevents from from correctly discerning individuals who harbor racial and religious hatred/prejudice and wish them harm?
(c) That ONLY outsiders (i.e. non-members of the target group) have the capacity to recognize genuine racial/religious bigotry?
Perhaps you would not use the word “myth” if you were on the receiving end of systemic or institutional prejudice and discrimination — just because of the color of your skin?
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