Posted on 02/09/2021 3:30:05 AM PST by marktwain
Oops, make that his M-1 and his Thompson.
The AR10 platform can use rounds larger than the 7.62 NATO. I have a AR10 upper in 338 fed. 210gr nosler partition at 2550 fps out of 18” rifle length upper. That’s big bad bear medicine with 3500 ftlbs of energy at the muzzle. It retains 2000ft ftlbs and 1800 fps to well past 200m which means it can take any CP3 class game out to that distance reliably and with authority. That’s Brown bear and moose sized game. For SD you have 25+1 in a 12lb package that can let those off as fast as one can pull a trigger. The AR10 also can use the 358 rem. Another great bear killer. 225 to 250 gr bullets again at moderate velocities and 3000+ ftlbs of muzzle energy.
Going down to the AR15 sized there are a number of bigbore uppers the most useful would be the 458 SOCOM shooting 45_70 sized bullets at medium power 45_70 velocities. It’s the ballistic equal to 45_70 trap door loads which have a 100+ year history of being a bison buster and also brown and black bears. 500gr hard cast at 2200fps will penetrate stem to stern on a 1800lb bison a bear stands little chance of not having full trough and trough hits from any angle. The modern sporting rifle with the appropriate caliber upper is capable of taking any game that walks in North America and in a self defense shooting having 25+1 of 3000+ ftlbs and bonded or hard cast or 10+1 2600ftlbs in the smaller AR15.
When I go to Alaska my AR10 in 338 rides a three point chest rig with Nosler partitions in a 25rd mag. The 44 mag on my waist is only if I run out of 338 or the rifle gets pulled off my body.
https://ballistictools.com/articles/primer-pocket-depth-and-diameter.php
My knowledge of wound ballistics comes both from my studies in forensic medicine and observation of KIAS and WIAS in the field.
Larger slower spitzers do indeed tumble 180 in flesh - a feature of blunt nosed pistol or round shot is that they rarely tumble but tend to bore through nose first - after tumbling a blunt based spitzer acts like a pistol shot and exits base first.
An effect of the ogive in spitzers is extreme instability when moving through flesh - one side of the ogive experiencing even minor increased friction causes the point to yaw wildly, presenting its side to the medium - this in turn increases the shock transmitted to the target and slowing the round.
My experience was that where 7.62x51 and to a lesser extent 7.62x39 would bore straight holes through an ankle or forearm, the same wound with 223 blew skin and muscle away leaving a huge ragged wound requiring much debriding and often grafts.
The original idea for spitzers was to decrease air friction and enhance high speed loading - the wound effects only became clear after.
The same applies with 223 cannelure - originally it was intended to improve chamber pressure - only after did the tendency of lightweight cannelure shot to break up when experiencing ogive tumbling - don’t ask me why.
I also observed the strange phenomenon of 223 “pinholing” at close range - the round going through with a tiny entry and exit wound (like being stabbed with a hatpin) - again don’t ask me why the ballistics of 223 is black magic to me.
The 7.62x51 used a faster powder than the 30.06 - their powder load isn’t the same the 51 goes further with less charge.
Anecdote - I was demobbing some prick batts in the bottom of an old fox hole with my 45 when one of our idiots walked up and offered to help.
The loon fired a 3 round burst from his 16 into the hole.
The batts were never seen again.
the foxhole was 6 inches deeper and its once filling of jungle slime was now coating me and the idiot from head to blousing garters.
Oh hale yass I did get his stupid azz.
The velocity of the 223 is ungodly.
“The 5.56×45mm NATO SS109/M855 cartridge (NATO: SS109; U.S.: M855) with standard 62 gr. lead core bullets with steel penetrator will penetrate about 38 to 51 cm (15 to 20 in) into soft tissue in ideal circumstances. As with all spitzer shaped projectiles, it is prone to yaw in soft tissue. However, at impact velocities above roughly 762 m/s (2,500 ft/s), it may yaw and then fragment at the cannelure (the crimping groove around the cylinder of the bullet).[29] These fragments can disperse through flesh and bone, inflicting additional internal injuries.”
>Reading Gunshot Patterns”. NIH.gov. National Institute of Health.<
see 5.56 wound cavity-
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/M16A2_M855_5.56X45mm_NATO_wound_ballistics.gif
the idea that 30.06 and 308 have more power than a 5.56mm is an old wives tale
Just be sure the firing pin moves freely in the bolt. :-)
I have a few hundred small rifle primers. I keep them for reloading my 221 fireball pistol. That is a bolt action pistol and it requires rifle primers. (contrary to what some “experts” tell you)
But thank you for the suggestion. The last time I stocked up on primers, I should have bought more of the small rifle primers. Hindsight is 20/20. I think small rifle primers are also more practical to substitute in revolvers than in automatics. It is an issue of the metal used in the primer cups (thickness) but it is also because of the larger case of rifles. They are hotter primers.
The large rifle primers that I was able to buy the last time, are magnum primers. You have to be careful substituting them with some powders. They do affect the burn rate. I typically use IMR 3031 for my rifles, and Unique for my pistols. (except the fireball for which I have 2 powders I have used) The shortage of primers and powder has forced me to look at alternatives to substitute for what I cannot find. I was looking at a supplier last night that got a shipment of powder in (Accurate and one I was not familiar with), I had not done my homework and by the time I did, most of it was gone.
The demand for hunting is one thing, the demand from fear is quite another. Then the scalpers kick in and it is a mess. There are a lot of powder manufacturers, there are not that many primer manufacturers. I think it is time we had one in Texas. The way things are going now, that might happen.
Who knows how long the Biden/Harris drought will last. I don’t think the Jackson-Lee bill will go anywhere. I don’t think it’s meant to, in its entirety; just some of the “ common sense” elements.
“common sense”
Something that no ComDem is capable of having. Not a one of them. They all LIE 24/7 and it is all about the agenda.
They MUST LIE, if they ever told the truth, No ONE would ever elect them.
Two pretty diff calibers and bullet weights
122 grain over 55 grain
I’ll take 7.62x39 for a bear
I think humanely a larger caliber is better
Very few powder manufacturers in the U.S.A.
You sound like you remember it very well
In terms of companies, yes.
Several powder companies have been bought by larger companies but the names are kept separate. Actually that is the trend in the firearms side of it too. The liability issues and the regulation makes it difficult. Exception to that is the AR side of the business. Lots of small shops.
Almost all the reloading supply companies are out of powder of any kind. All that I know of are out of primers. With no idea when they will again be available.
I’m OK for now with IMR3031, IMR4198 and with Unique. Had a chance to buy Accurate no. 2 yesterday in 5lb size. Hesitated a moment too long, have never used it before and was reluctant to buy that large a quantity.
Gosh yes, don’t we all?
Gosh yes, don’t we all?
If you have experience in this then you have seen all sorts of freakish things in combat - but the one constant of my experience in Vietnam 1966-7 was that the M16s rarely stopped anybody. I saw lots of people shot, saw the dust cloud come off their clothes and they kept running. It took multiple hits to see them drop. I also saw 5.56mm tracers ricochet off wet grass.
I suspect that those early 55gr bullets, fired through 1/14 barrels were a poor ballistic combination - but combined with the horrific jams we experienced, you can imagine how the weapon did not inspire faith.
Conversely, each and every person I saw hit by an M14 went down, immediately. The very last guy I shot was hit on the edge of his hand, taking his little finger with it and he fell like a sack of rocks and was easily captured.
With AK rounds, I saw crazy stuff to - like our jeep driver was hit in the stomach and also in the arm somewhere. He had a lump on his upper arm and no visible entry hole. While we were waiting for the medevac, we played with the lump, and it moved down his arm. We kept pushing it and a fresh, hot AK bullet popped out of a small cut on his knuckle: the bullet had passed through the sheetmetal under the windshield, entered his hand on the steering wheel and slid up the bones of his arm to come to rest next to his shoulder.
In my own case, I was hit by either an AK bullet or a 7.62X54 round and the bullet shattered my right femur and blew my muscle and skin apart around the wound. I couldn't cover the entry wound with my open hand and the whole upper leg had swollen many times its normal size. Apparently, the bullet hit in the center of that bone and I was very lucky to have a medevac helicopter only 15 minutes out.
There was a large, gruesome and well-illustrated book in the military library at Fort Sill called "Wound Ballistics" and it featured hundreds of documented casualties from Europe and the the Pacific and included photographs of each of the dead. At the end of each section, it provided analysis of what killed versus what just wounded, of bullets and fragmentation and its analysis said that bullets and fragments larger than 3/8 of an ounce caused the greatest lethal effect.
I would agree with that book.
I’m 63
I had guys one day we were throwing the ball around with in the front yard or me watching them play on Friday nights at the stadium with lights and I’m in seventh grade and next they are graduated seniors headed to Vietnam...
One distinctly came home minus a foot not four months into tour...it was sad...he made a life and still is kicking
Another who was a deer hunting partner many years and I knew from youth left high school as a junior at 17
Marine sniper two tours..67-69
A number of others...I grew up working class side of town till 15......rich side of town not so many....that should never happen again in conscription ....although both those guys signed up
I enjoyed the stories yall thank you in all ways
I don’t hunt bear I would have never thought 338 federal though 338 WM or 340 Weatherby
But I don’t hunt bear
We hunt white tails and coyote mostly only now
We have a few medium big bores
35 Whelen...I like that one...and will deer hunt with it......I’m old and I’ve had two many deer I had to look for a long time with .243
.45-70.....the .30-30 of 40s
Just a few days we bought ....my sons and I one of whom wants to bear hunt...a number one ... fancy walnut model....in .340 weatherby
Don’t know why ..it was a great deal though
Just wanted it....I really wanted a #1 in Whelen but I think they have only made them one year.....now everything is Creedmoor...Creedmor Creedmor.....it’s like virtue signaling in gun porn
To be honest those single shot breech guns with those fancy Spanish Bergara barrels are cheap and function great for little money....CVA etc
So you can square up cheap really....with combloc glass for not much..
Our Whelen is one of those with 200 dollar Putin glass that functions well...it ain’t Swarovski but it’s damn nice for 10% of the cost
Anyhow...isn’t 338 Federal about like 308?
I’d like to be educated.....I have three hunting sons 14-20 and one wants bear
The M16, first introduced to RVN in 1965, rarely stopped anybody in 1966-67.
Possibly because they weren’t in widespread use yet.
In 1969-70 the M16A1 which replaced the 1965 model, was stopping plenty of bodies.
A book about WW2 wound ballistics at Ft. Sill, which was before the M16 existed, somehow proves something about M16 wound ballistics.
If you want to freak yourself out with fairy tales about how the NATO 5.56 mm round isn’t popular with WW2 vets go ahead.
The 5.56 mm is all the weapon you need.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
