THE ANTI-GOD SUBTEXT TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE

Sonar 21 ^ | 19 April 2023 | Larry Johnson

[tlozo]

The Russians can hardly demand freedom for me but not for thee.

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[Kazan]

Again, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was created out of thin air, probably with help from the CIA, to promote a political agenda. It doesn't exist anywhere but Ukraine because a political entity, not a legitimate branch of the Orthodox religion.

There are protestant churches, mosques and synagogues in Russia. That religious freedom exists there isn't in question.

[Kazan]

You do realize a large percentage of Ukraine before the war started has been part of Russia and contains ethnic Russians who worshipped at Russian Orthodox Churches in Ukraine?

We fomented an illegal coup in 2014 and installed Ukraine nationalists hostile to the ethnic Russian population that went onto persecute and murder ethnic Russians. And, now, are destroying their places of worship. It's outrageous and evil that our meddling lead to that kind of suffering there.

And, the part of Ukraine that were ethnically Russian HAD every right to fight for their independence and seek Russian help to achieve it.

If Ukrainian nationalists want a purely ethnic Ukrainian country, they should have let the ethnic Russian parts of the country have their independence and, now, acknowledge that they had a right to join the Russian Federation.

But, this war in Ukraine is a proxy war that we wanted that doesn't have any regard for the people in Ukraine, especially for ethnic Russians.

[Petrosius]

Again, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was created out of thin air, probably with help from the CIA, to promote a political agenda.

You cannot blame the CIA for everything. Ukrainian ethnic nationalism goes back centuries. An independent, autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church was formed in 1919 with the breakup of the Russian Empire. The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church existed until 1936 when it was forced to unite with the Russian Orthodox Church under Stalin. It was restored in 1990. Attempts at an independent Ukrainian church go back even further to 17th century under Ukrainian Hetman Ivan Mazepa.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate was form in 1992 by a national synod under Metropolitan Filaret. Filaret had been appointed the Russian Orthodox Archbishop of Kyiv in 1966. If anything, Filaret was a creature of the KGB, not of the CIA.

These two churches, along with some Russian Orthodox in Ukraine, united in 2018 to form the Orthodox Church of Ukraine and has been recognized by Constantinople.

As I noted before, the Russian Orthodox Church itself was created unilaterally by the Grand Prince of Moscow in 1448 and was only recognized by Constantinople in 1589.

That you will not recognize the legitimacy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church speaks volumes about your alleged concern about religious freedom.

[Petrosius]

You do realize a large percentage of Ukraine before the war started has been part of Russia and contains ethnic Russians who worshipped at Russian Orthodox Churches in Ukraine?

As I have stated before, I do not support the closing of Russian Orthodox churches in Ukraine. But you seem not to want to acknowledge that.

We fomented an illegal coup in 2014 and installed Ukraine nationalists hostile to the ethnic Russian population that went onto persecute and murder ethnic Russians.

Complete nonsense. Whatever CIA participation there might have been in 2014, the uprising had broad national support and was supported by the democratically elected parliament. Additionally, Zelensky was elected by popular vote, not installed by a coup. Nor was there any holocaust against the Russian population. This is pure Russian propaganda.

And, the part of Ukraine that were ethnically Russian HAD every right to fight for their independence and seek Russian help to achieve it.

The only part of Ukraine that has a Russian majority is Crimea. Donbas has a majority Ukrainian population. This has been pointed out to you so many times that there is no excuse for continuing to make the claim that these are ethnically Russian territories.

But, this war in Ukraine is a proxy war that we wanted that doesn't have any regard for the people in Ukraine, especially for ethnic Russians.

The only one who wanted this war is Putin, who started it, and his supporters. The only thing that the supporters of Ukraine want is for the Russian to go home and to live in peace with Ukraine within their own borders.

[Kazan]

To sum up, I reject your premise that the these churches are being demolished because they are spreading Putin and Russian propaganda.

These are churches that serve Russian-speaking people in Ukraine that worship in them. A large percentage of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language. That is true of even Zelensky.

Shutting these churches down is part of ongoing discrimination against ethnic Russians and those that speak Russian by Ukrainian nationalists we helped bring to power illegally.

[Vlad0]

While I do not support their closures, this action is against the Russian Orthodox Church, not Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox in general. It is simply false to portray this as an attack on the Orthodox faith as a whole.

A distinction without a a difference.

While in America it may appear that there are multiple churches that are orthodox, and "Russian Orthodox" is just one of them, along with Greek Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthdox, etc - this is unique to America (due to our huge immigrant population).

In almost every other country the Orthodox church is the church of that country. Almost all the Orthodox churches in Greece are "Greek Orthodox". (Yes, I'm sure there are a few exceptions that prove the rule.)

In Ukrainian Orthodox Church was the main Orthodox Church in Ukraine for the last 1000 years. In 2019 the Zelensky regime created a new "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" because they did not appreciate the historic connection between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Patriarch of Moscow. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is the de facto national church of Ukraine. It has over 8,000 parishes. (The Catholic Church has 17,000 parishes in the United States, as a comparison.)

Orthodox Christianity is the religion of 72% of the population of Ukraine. Catholicism is the second largest group 9% (Atheists / Can't Say make up 12%).

Therefore, for all intents and purposes, the Zelensky regimes attack on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is not just an attack on some inconsequential denomination, it's an attack on the Orthodox Church which most Ukrainians are part of, and also the Christian denomination which most Ukrainians belong to, and also the top religious organization in the nation.

You can't really make an easy equivalency in the USA. It would be a lot like outlawing or persecuting the Roman Catholic Church in Italy. (79% of Italians belong to it).

There is an obvious connection between the Biden regimes overt hostility to Christianity in America, and in particular the targeting of the Catholic Church, and his client regime headed by Zelensky and their targeting of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.

[Petrosius]

To sum up, I reject your premise that the these churches are being demolished because they are spreading Putin and Russian propaganda.

I never made that claim. I, too, am opposed to closing Russian Orthodox churches in Ukraine, as I am opposed to restrictions on Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches in Russian controlled territories. Will you join me in the latter sentiment, or is your concern only for the Russians? Will you accept the legitimacy of both the Ukrainian state and Ukrainian church as independent of Russia?

[Petrosius]

In Ukrainian Orthodox Church was the main Orthodox Church in Ukraine for the last 1000 years.

Yes, but which Ukrainian Orthodox Church? The Orthodox Church of Ukraine — also known as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) — comprises 78% of the Orthodox population in Ukraine and 52% of the entire population. By contrast, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) only comprises 6% of the Orthodox population and 4% of the entire population of Ukraine. By your logic, then, only the Kyiv Patriarchate should be recognized as the legitimate Orthodox church in Ukraine.

Therefore, for all intents and purposes, the Zelensky regimes attack on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is not just an attack on some inconsequential denomination, it's an attack on the Orthodox Church which most Ukrainians are part of, and also the Christian denomination which most Ukrainians belong to, and also the top religious organization in the nation.

False, the majority of Ukrainians belong to the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church (i.e. Kyiv Patriarchate). The actions of the Ukrainian government against the Russian Orthodox, which I do not support, do not affect the church to which the majority of Orthodox in Ukraine belong. While misguided, the attacks against the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is base on their affiliation with Moscow, not an attack on Orthodoxy or Christianity per se.

[Vlad0]

Nor was there any holocaust against the Russian population. This is pure Russian propaganda.

The original poster did not use the term "holocaust", you did.

The OP said: in 2014 and installed Ukraine nationalists hostile to the ethnic Russian population that went on to persecute and murder ethnic Russians.

Let's start with something simple: the Russian language and it's legal status in Ukraine. About one third of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language. Here is a bit from Wikipedia about the push of the post-coup regime to deligitimzie it (BTW: Wikipedia is very pro Ukrainian in most respects)

The 2012 law On the principles of the State language policy granted regional language status to Russian and other minority languages. It allowed the use of minority languages in courts, schools and other government institutions in areas of Ukraine where the national minorities exceed 10% of the population.

The 2012 law was supported by the governing Party of Regions and opposed by the opposition parties, who argued that the law undermined the role of the Ukrainian language, violated Article 10 of the Constitution, and was adopted with an irregular procedure.

Immediately after the 2014 Ukrainian revolution [which you keep tendentiously claiming was not a revolution, but a totally normal process, despite pretty much every legitimate source calling it a revolution, Petrosius], on 23 February 2014, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to repeal the law. This decision was vetoed by the acting President Turchynov." In October 2014, the Constitutional Court started reviewing the constitutionality of the 2012 law and declared it unconstitutional on 28 February 2018.

So, effectively one of the first acts of the post-revolutionary government was to strip the Russian language of legal status. Most fair minded people would agree that this is a form of persecution. (Image if the USA decided not to print ballots in Spanish, for instance. Do you think the large Hispanic population of the USA would object and consider that persecution?)

Many other provocations against ethnic Russians followed. They included seizing the property of ethnic-Russians in Ukraine, taking the television network that catered to ethnic-Russians off the air, outlawing the political party that supported the minority rights of ethnic-Russians in Ukraine, and on and on.

Are you really going to sit there are pretend none of this happened, or that it was all OK because there was some legalistic window-dressing attached to this?

[Vlad0]

the majority of Ukrainians belong to the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church (i.e. Kyiv Patriarchate).

Oh, the church the CIA and Zelensky regime founded in 2018? Sure, everyone belongs to that because the Government says so.

It's a silly argument you are making. Even the (obviously pro Ukrainian) Wikipedia article on the Zelensky Orthodox Church has to admit the sad facts:

The church was established under the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople by a unification council that convened in Kyiv on 15 December 2018.

So you think 70% of Ukrainians joined this new church in the last 5 years? And miraculously they built thousands of new churches?

That's ridiculous, be honest at least and admit what has happened here. It's not hard to understand.

It's a government created church.

Ukraine creates new Orthodox church independent from Russia

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko announced that 39-year-old Metropolitan Epifaniy of the Kiev Patriarchate church is the head of the new church. His secular name is Sergiy Dumenko.

“This day will go down in history as a sacred day … the day of the final independence from Russia,” Poroshenko told thousands of supporters, who shouted “Glory! Glory! Glory!”

When we were at war with Italy in WW2 no one suggested that all the Catholic churches in America be reorganized by FDR's regime, because the Pope was Italian.

Dont' give Joe any ideas: I can't wait until they do this in America! Form a new American Catholic Church and then declare that all Catholics now belong to the American Catholic church, and the church buildings too. And that pesky Pope - well American Catholic Church will now have it's own new Pope in Washington D.C.!

There isn't any good way to spin what Zelensky did here.

Anyway, Poroshenko is a billionaire who owned his own TV network. He was one of the main financial supporters of the revolution of 2014 that deposed the elected President, and in the hasty elections following the coup he was elected President. How convenient!

Here's what the vote in that election looked like, by province. Notice anything?

Most of the ethnic Russians didn't approve of him, because they knew he was radically anti-Russian. In short order he outlawed their language, stole their church from them, and started a war with the "breakaway republics". (That's where the OP's "killing" part comes in.)

[Petrosius]

Why did you not also reference the 2019 Law "On protecting the functioning of the Ukrainian Language as the state language"? Notice that the title of the law is concerned primarily with the use of Ukrainian by state institutions. It does not ban the private use of Russian. Among its provisions are:

• The print media may be published in languages other than the national language, provided that the publication of this publication in a foreign language is published simultaneously with the corresponding edition of the publication in the State language (art. 25, h. 1).
• In each place of distribution of the printed media, the printed media in the State language must be at least 50 percent of the titles of the printed media distributed in that place (art. 25, h. 4).
• The publisher registered in the State Register of Publishers, Producers and Distributors of Publishing Products is required to publish in the state language at least 50 percent of all titles of book editions published by him during the corresponding calendar year (art. 26, h. 1).
• The art. 30 "State language in the field of customer service", assigns exclusively that area the Ukrainian language. At the customer's request, their personal service may also be provided in another language acceptable to the parties (Part 3).
• This law does not apply to the field of private communication and the performance of religious rites (art. 2, h. 2).

Thus the law promotes the use of Ukrainian but does not, as often claimed, ban the use of Russian.

Additionally, the Ukrainian parliament, in accord with Minsk II, passed a law in 2015 granting special status to Donbas. This law was subsequently extended many times. It did not come into effect because of Russia's violation of that accord in not withdrawing from Donbas and restoring the control of the border to Ukraine. Hyperbole does not help the pro-Russian side.

[Vlad0]

Hyperbole does not help the pro-Russian side.

Intellectual dishonesty does not help the Ukrainian nationalist side.

[Vermont Lt]

And if you look at the US our politicians rarely get 50% in any state.

We don’t look at the states. We look at the country.

Do you Putin Boiz even understand how nations work? Clearly, you struggle with borders.

[Petrosius]

So you think 70% of Ukrainians joined this new church in the last 5 years? And miraculously they built thousands of new churches?

The Orthodox Church of Ukraine was formed by a union of the pre-existing Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate. The former dates back to 1919/1990 and the latter was formed by the Moscow appointed Metropolitan Filaret, who collaborated with the KGB. It was formed by elements of the Russian Orthodox Church who broke with Moscow. Stop looking for the CIA under every bed. And do I need to mention again that The Russian Orthodox Church itself was creation of the state which everyone was forced to join? Even now Moscow continues to restrict the activities of non-Russian Orthodox.

This war is being driven by Russian chauvinists who will not accept that Ukraine is independent of Russia. And yes, I do believe that a majority of Orthodox in Ukraine would want to be members of and independent Ukrainian church. If anything, this was will only increase that desire.

[Vlad0]

Imagine these restrictions anywhere else! They are completely ridiculous!

• The print media may be published in languages other than the national language, provided that the publication of this publication in a foreign language is published simultaneously with the corresponding edition of the publication in the State language (art. 25, h. 1).
  • The USA has a long history of foreign language newspapers that continues to this day, and these are immigrants to America - not people who've lived in the same place for generations and merely want to continue publishing some paper or magazine they may have published for years, as is the case in Eastern Ukraine. This is a deliberately back-breaking regulation, designed to destroy the Russian press, noting more and nothing less.

    A little closer to home Russia has a robust non-Russian language publishing market. Peruse this list of newspapers and magazines in Russia and you will see publications in English, Finnish, French, Ludic, Spanish, Italian, Yakut, and Karelian.

    The authoritarian Poroshenko-Zelenskyite regime says "Go get some Ukrainian speakers and put out double editions, even if no one will buy them!"

• In each place of distribution of the printed media, the printed media in the State language must be at least 50 percent of the titles of the printed media distributed in that place (art. 25, h. 4).

  • So, go broke printing stuff that no one will buy, or break the law and get shutdown. Very clever.

• The publisher registered in the State Register of Publishers, Producers and Distributors of Publishing Products is required to publish in the state language at least 50 percent of all titles of book editions published by him during the corresponding calendar year (art. 26, h. 1).
  • Go broke printing double what you need, half in Ukrainian, regardless of the market for such goods.

• "State language in the field of customer service", assigns exclusively that area the Ukrainian language. At the customer's request, their personal service may also be provided in another language acceptable to the parties (Part 3).
  • So, you can't have a Russian restaurant or bar or bakery unless you hire Ukrainian speakers to do all the service. If the USA had a law like this many taquerias in Texas and Southern California would have to close.

Thanks for making my point for me!

[Petrosius]

Oh the horror, that Russian speakers should learn Ukrainian and use it alongside Russian in, of all places, Ukraine! Ukraine is no longer a Russian fiefdom and the Russian language no longer has a privileged place. Be proud of being Russian, be proud of the Russian language, but recognize that you are in Ukraine and that Russians are a minority.

[tlozo]

Most of the ethnic Russians didn't approve of him, because they knew he was radically anti-Russia

Funny how you Russian propagandists never show the last Ukrainian election in which EVERY region save one voted for the SAME CANDIDATE: Zelensky..

[nesnah]

Funny how you Russian propagandists never show the last Ukrainian election in which EVERY region save one voted for the SAME CANDIDATE: Zelensky..

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You really cannot be serious in your belief of that.

Saddam Hussein used to win overwhelmingly as well.

[tlozo]

Saddam Hussein used to win overwhelmingly as well.

Ukraine elections were monitored by international groups and found to be free and fair. In fact, Zelensky upset the sitting incumbent president.