Posted on 09/05/2023 8:53:01 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
To which …Columnist Carol Thomas wrote,Only a president who knows more about making love than war would declare the puny and ineffective one-sided assault on the former Yugoslavia to be a victory.
LOL! Billeh Clinton zinged! Thanks for your link to the Congressional Record. Wanted to see who said the quote you pulled out in bold (above in italics), and it appears to have been Jimmy Duncan, (R) Tennessee 1988-2019.
For sure Ukraine’s counteroffensive has been considerably hampered by lack of weapons supply from the West in the 1st half of 2023, both in quantity and in longer range weapons. The delay in the GLSDB program is just one example. No ATACMS. 17 old MIGs, apparently? (Although I’m not finding much in news, some others may have been cannibalized since early 2023 for more parts sent to Ukraine.) Some source I was reading last night said UKRAINE had still only received 24 HIMARS launchers, which seems unbelievable. US inventories alone were pegged to increase by nearly 100 in 2023 and IIRC another source said we were up to 500 presently. And so on.
OTOH, Russia is in a very difficult position too. Ukraine’s air defenses have been reinforced and continue to be bolstered. There are way too many targets to be even 30% protected, given that Russia is giving itself a black eye by attacking grain exports and such. But critical targets are getting harder to take out. If it chooses, Ukraine can pretty much go back on defense and chip away at Russia and Russian bases increasingly with drone attacks. Plus I’d expect Ukraine to hit the Kerch Bridge and rail supply routes through SE Ukraine to Crimea with some of its limited long range missiles. Maybe more of the Black Sea fleet, too. Hanging onto Crimea may become very painful and costly for Russia. All the while the Western European (and to some degree the US) defense industrial base slowly gets its act together, and Poland rearms to the teeth with modern weapons.
Losing as in losing far more men and from a much smaller population. In case you haven’t noticed, they are running out of men to throw into the meat grinder.
Beginning to wonder if the talk of west just wanting to bleed Russian and not really intend for them to in IE get all their territory back
US alone has thousands of abrams, bradleys, Strykers, and you did plenty of himars as well as more f-16s nd wanting to get rid of A-10s. Right now Ukraine needs air assets not to dog fight or do deep strike missions but merely to take off launch weapons and land.
The delays are confusing.
31 abrams really!???
None of these systems are needed to fight the Chinese and were made to fight Soviet Union which is now Russia so there you go
Strange days indeed
RE: Losing as in losing far more men and from a much smaller population
You’re simply repeating MacGregor’s talking points.
You and the Colonel are talking battle, I’m talking end game as in FINALLY winning the war.
We have a different definition of Losing. By that, I mean Ukraine TOTALLY taken over by Russia and their government under a Putin Puppet.
When do you think this will happen based on your view of the battle and manpower attrition? Macgregor initially predicted a March to April timetable. Then he kept shifting the goal post.... now, he refuses to provide his own estimated date.
Yes, I see a lot of Ukrainian casualties. But heck, it’s not as if Russia isn’t suffering huge casualties too. And I am not convince with your “far more men” description above.
Maybe you can do a better job than Macgregor. If you do, I’ll revisit this thread to see how good you are compared to him.
I think that Russia’s goal was to keep Ukraine out of The West’s sphere of control. They wanted to prevent Ukrainian membership in NATO and The EU and they wanted to sieze areas that they thought were Russian. So far, they have achieved that goal. In that sense they are winning the war.
This war is very politically tricky though. It’s not a straightforward war. Russia is not trying to take Kiev or militarily take over all of Ukraine. They are mostly in a defensive posture. They wish to avoid any escalation of the war that would trigger direct American and NATO involvement and WWIII. If for example they move too far west, Poland will feel directly threatened and will likely react.
So it’s now a waiting game. Will The West negotiate a peace or try to keep this war going indefinitely? Eventually, if this war persists long enough it will lead to WWIII and wars will break out all over the world.
1) They wanted to prevent the expansion of NATO. Finland just joined NATO with Sweden waiting in the wings. How’s that achieving their goals? All they did by their actions is EXPAND NATO.
2) Russia not trying to take Kiev? Heck that was the FIRST thing they attempted with hundreds of tanks forming a huge convoy towards the city. Those tanks are KAPUT. How are they winning?
3) Hundreds of thousands of Russians DEAD, aircraft, tanks, ships destroyed, drone attacks in their territory, their elite Wagner group disbanded exposing internal dissension, thousands of their best young people fleeing their country to avoid the draft, sanctions on their economy .... that’s winning?
4) Russia already had control of Crimea and the Donbas. Ukraine was not attacking any of their territories. Yet They couldn’t keep well enough alone. Now, instead of relatively and peacefully controlling these regions, their control is being threatened. How’s that winning compared to what they had before February 2022?
I guess when you can’t achieve your goal, you can redefine your concept of winning and take what you have.
RE: Eventually, if this war persists long enough it will lead to WWIII and wars will break out all over the world.
And that’s winning? Seeing your country potentially destroyed because you could not keep well enough alone?
I believe that this war with Russia in Ukraine was orchestrated by America. They knew that what they were doing in Ukraine would likely provoke a war with Russia and they did it anyway. They wanted to fight Russia using somebody else’s country. The American government has turned evil, very evil.
I believe that Russia did not want the war in Ukraine. All they wanted was for The West to get out of Ukraine. That’s it and there would be no war.
America has become a very dark force in the world and the world is growing more and more unstable because of it. It feels like we are all headed for some terrible global conflagration and I can’t help but think that our leaders want it.
Biden will get us into WW3 and they'll tell us afterwards that it wasn't his fault, he had dementia.
We could go back and forth 60 more times....or just wait and see. I think I know what’s coming. Time will tell.
All I’m saying is those who say that Russia is currently winning like Douglas MacGregor used to define winning the way I myself do — a totally subjugated and surrendered Ukraine with a leader in Kyiv under Russian control. MacGregor used to say this ( my understanding of the term WIN) was going to happen soon as early as March 2022 when I heard him regularly on the radio.
Now, here I see people defining winning differently. A lot of dead Ukrainians is now considered winning. MacGregor even set an approximate date last March 2022. Now, I don’t see him settling dates anymore.
I prefer not to prognosticate and let things play out as they unfold.
For me, a better debate regardless of who wins this war, is to argue whether or not Russia was doing the morally right thing in invading Ukraine.
Perfect end times image. Biden’s the perfect end times President. He’s both evil and helpless.
RE: I believe that this war with Russia in Ukraine was orchestrated by America. They knew that what they were doing in Ukraine would likely provoke a war with Russia a
When Trump was President, Iran orchestrated unprovoked attacks against American ships passing by the gulf. Iran was using drones to attack ships passing through the gulf.
America under Trump had every right to flex its power and bomb the hell out of the Iranian military sites.
But what did Trump do? Donald Trump has said the US air force was “cocked and loaded” to attack three Iranian targets on Friday morning, but he called off the strike with 10 minutes to spare after being told that the airstrike might kill as many as 150 people.
Trump said in a series of morning tweets that he decided late on Thursday that the death toll was not a proportionate response to the Iranian shooting down of a US spy drone off the Iranian coast 24 hours earlier.
IN OTHER WORDS, RATHER THAN KILL 150 people ( many of them innocent civilains ), Trump prefered to exercise RESTRAINT.
Yet, here you are telling me that Putin could not exercise restraint and exhaust all diplomatic means. He already occupied Georgia, Crimea and was supporting rebel attacks in Eastern Ukraine, yet, could not find it in his power to emulate Trumpian restraint and now cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Russians and Ukranians, and the displacement of of MILLIONS of Ukranians from their homes. More than 700,000 have being moved to Russian orphanages and camps, where they learn how to be Russian.
Yeah, despite all these, it’s all America’s fault and Putin has no moral culpability whatsoever.....
“Yet, here you are telling me that Putin could not exercise restraint and exhaust all diplomatic means.”
Russia and Ukraine had a written framework for peace 2 months into the invasion according to the former Prime Minister of Israel who helped broker the deal. The deal was quickly scuttled by America and Britain. Why did they do that? Well, I think it’s because they wanted this war, why else? Since then there have been no further negotiations and not because Russia is unwilling, they have no one to negotiate with. America has done nothing but support this war in every conceivable way. We have lavished Ukraine with 100s of billions in weapons and cash with no end in sight.
We needed to show restraint. We needed not to go into Ukraine and try to bring it into NATO and The EU. We needed to negotiate with Russia BEFORE this war started. But of course we did none of these things.
I think that we are looking at another endless war. But unlike other endless wars this war will likely come home to us. We will likely be brought into this war. I think our government is hoping for or planning on a Pearl Harbor event. Then we will see our debilitated and criminal “President” get up behind a microphone and start waxing nostalgic about WWII.
Then he will feed us into the same meat grinder that he has fed Ukraine into.
RE: Russia and Ukraine had a written framework for peace 2 months into the invasion according to the former Prime Minister of Israel who helped broker the deal. The deal was quickly scuttled by America and Britain.
IF what you say is true,Putin, if he REALLY wanted peace, could simply IGNORE the Anglosphere and CONTINUE with the framework and build on it. Instead, he CHOSE the path of war.
You cannot morally absolve the decision of Putin to invade Ukraine and make it look like things were beyond his control.
It was within his power and will NOT to decide to invade. And Russia was in no danger of any invasion.
There is NO COUNTRY interested in invading Russia. NOT NATO, NOT the USA, NOT the UK, NOT Japan and certainly NOT Ukraine.
The blame for this tragic mess STILL LIES WITH PUTIN.
RE: I think our government is hoping for or planning on a Pearl Harbor event
Explain to us what great advantage or profit our government hoping for such an event to occur would give the USA.
“Explain to us what great advantage or profit our government hoping for such an event to occur would give the USA.”
Who is us?
I don’t think that the people running this government care about the welfare of this country per se or its future. They see themselves more as global rulers. They are using America as a tool only to be thrown away once the goal of global dictatorship has been achieved.
A large attack against us would green light our full involvement in the war against Russia and beyond. They need the political cover.
Our government is going toe to toe with the world’s biggest nuclear power over Ukraine??? Risking nuclear annihilation over Ukraine??? It’s beyond reckless. It only makes sense if they are planning to fight a world war.
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