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Rnmomof7 | 9/5/01 | John Wesley

Posted on 09/05/2001 2:47:45 PM PDT by RnMomof7


"So is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8.

1. How is every one that is "born of the Spirit," -- that is, born again, -- born of God? What is meant by the being born again, the being born of God, or being born of the Spirit? What is implied in the being a son or a child of God, or having the Spirit of adoption? That these privileges, by the free mercy of God, are ordinarily annexed to baptism (which is thence termed by our Lord in a preceding verse, the being "born of water and of the Spirit") we know; but we would know what these privileges are: What is the new birth?

2. Perhaps it is not needful to give a definition of this, seeing the Scripture gives none. But as the question is of the deepest concern to every child of man; since, "except a man be born again," born of the Spirit, "he cannot see the kingdom of God;" I propose to lay down the marks of it in the plainest manner, just as I find them laid down in Scripture.

I. 1. The First of these, and the foundation of all the rest, is faith. So St. Paul, "Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:26.) So St. John, "To them gave he power" (_exousian_, right or privilege, it might rather be translated) "to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name; which were born," when they believed, "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh," not by natural generation, "nor of the will of man," like those children adopted by men, in whom no inward change is thereby wrought, "but of God." (John 1:12,13.) And again in his General Epistle, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." (1 John 5:1.)

2. But it is not a barely notional or speculative faith that is here spoken of by the Apostles. It is not a bare assent to this proposition, Jesus is the Christ; nor indeed to all the propositions contained in our creed, or in the Old and New Testament. It is not merely an assent to any or all these credible things, as credible. To say this, were to say (which who could hear?) that the devils were born of God; for they have this faith. They, trembling, believe, both that Jesus is the Christ, and that all Scripture, having been given by inspiration of God, is true as God is true. It is not only an assent to divine truth, upon the testimony of God, or upon the evidence of miracles; for they also heard the words of his mouth, and knew him to be a faithful and true witness. They could not but receive the testimony he gave, both of himself, and of the Father which sent him. They saw likewise the mighty works which he did, and thence believed that he "came forth from God." Yet, nevertheless this faith, they are still "reserved in chains of darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

3. For all this is no more than a dead faith. The true, living, Christian faith, which whosoever hath, is born of God, is not only an assent, an act of the understanding; but a disposition, which God hath wrought in his heart; "a sure trust and confidence in God, that, through the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and he reconciled to the favor of God." This implies, that a man first renounce himself; that, in order to be "found in Christ," to be accepted through him, he totally rejects all "confidence in the flesh;" that, "having nothing to pay," having no trust in his own works or righteousness of any kind, he comes to God as a lost, miserable, self-destroyed, self-condemned, undone, helpless sinner; as one whose mouth is utterly stopped, and who is altogether "guilty before God." Such a sense of sin, (commonly called despair, by those who speak evil of the things they know not,) together with a full conviction, such as no words can express, that of Christ only cometh our salvation, and an earnest desire of that salvation, must precede a living faith, a trust in Him, who "for us paid our ransom by his death, and fulfilled the law of his life." This faith then, whereby we are born of God, is "not only a belief of all the articles of our faith, but also a true confidence of the mercy of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ."

4. An immediate and constant fruit of this faith whereby we are born of God, a fruit which can in no wise be separated from it, no, not for an hour, is power over sin; -- power over outward sin of every kind; over every evil word and work; for wheresoever the blood of Christ is thus applied, it "purgeth the conscience from dead works;" -- and over inward sin; for it purifieth the heart from every unholy desire and temper. This fruit of faith St. Paul has largely described, in the sixth chapter of his Epistle to the Romans. "How shall we," saith he, "who" by faith "are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." -- "Likewise, reckon ye yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign" even "in your mortal body,"but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead."For sin shall not have dominion over you. -- God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, -- but being made free," -- the plain meaning is, God be thanked that though ye were, in time past, the servants of sin, yet now -- "being free from sin, ye are become the servants of righteousness."

5. The same invaluable privilege of the sons of God is as strongly asserted by St. John; particularly with regard to the former branch of it, namely, power over outward sin. After he had been crying out, as one astonished at the depth of the riches of the goodness of God, -- "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God! Beloved, now are we the sons of God: And it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know, that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is;" (1 John 3:1, etc..) -- he soon adds, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: And he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9.) But some men will say, "True: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin habitually." Habitually! Whence is that? I read it not. It is not written in the Book. God plainly saith, "He doth not commit sin;" and thou addest, habitually! Who art thou that mendest the oracles of God? -- that "addest to the words of this book?" Beware, I beseech thee, lest God "add to thee all the plagues that are written therein!" especially when the comment thou addest is such as quite swallows up the text: So that by this _methodeia planEs_, artful method of deceiving, the precious promise is utterly lost; by this _kybeia anthrOpOn_, tricking and shuffling of men, the word of God is made of none effect. O beware, thou that thus takest from the words of this book, that, taking away the whole meaning and spirit from them, leavest only what may indeed be termed a dead letter, lest God take away thy part out of the book of life!

6. Suffer we the Apostle to interpret his own words, by the whole tenor of his discourse. In the fifth verse of this chapter, he had said, "Ye know that he," Christ, "was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." What is the inference he draws from this? "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6.) To his enforcement of this important doctrine, he premises an highly necessary caution: "Little children, let no man deceive you;" (1 John 3:7;) for many will endeavor so to do; to persuade you that you may be unrighteous, that you may commit sin, and yet be children of God! "He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." Then follows, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: And he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this," adds the Apostle, "the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil." By this plain mark (the committing or not committing sin) are they distinguished from each other. To the same effect are those words in his fifth chapter, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 3:18.)

7. Another fruit of this living faith is peace. For, "being justified by faith," having all our sins blotted out, "we have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:1.) This indeed our Lord himself, the night before his death, solemnly bequeathed to all his followers: "Peace," saith he, "I leave with you;" (you who "believe in God," and "believe also in me;") "my peace I give unto you:"Not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." (John 14:27.) And again, "These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace." (John 16:33.) This is that "peace of God which passeth all understanding," that serenity of soul which it hath not entered into the heart of a natural man to conceive, and which it is not possible for even the spiritual man to utter. And it is a peace which all the powers of earth and hell are unable to take from him. Waves and storms beat upon it, but they shake it not; for it is founded upon a rock. It keepeth the hearts and minds of the children of God, at all times and in all places. Whether they are in ease or in pain, in sickness or health, in abundance or want, they are happy in God. In every state they have learned to be content, yea, to give thanks unto God through Christ Jesus; being well assured that "whatever is, is best," because it is His will concerning them: So that in all the vicissitudes of life their "heart standeth fast, believing in the Lord."

II. 1. A Second scriptural mark of those who are born of God, is hope. Thus St. Peter, speaking to all the children of God who were then scattered abroad, saith, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which, according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope." (1 Peter 1:3.) _elpida zOsan_, a lively or living hope, saith the Apostle; because there is also a dead hope, as well as a dead faith; a hope which is not from God, but from the enemy of God and man; -- as evidently appears by its fruits; for, as it is the offspring of pride, so it is the parent of every evil word and work; whereas, every man that hath in him this living hope, is "holy as He that calleth him is holy:" Every man that can truly say to his brethren in Christ, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and we shall see him as he is,"purifieth himself, even as He is pure."

2. This hope implies, First, the testimony of our own spirit or conscience, that we walk "in simplicity and godly sincerity;" Secondly, the testimony of the Spirit of God, "bearing witness with," or to, "our spirit, that we are the children of God," "and if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."

3. Let us well observe what is here taught us by God himself, touching this glorious privilege of his children. Who is it that is here said to bear witness? Not our spirit only, but another; even the Spirit of God: He it is who "beareth witness with our spirit." What is it he beareth witness of? "That we are the children of God,"and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;" (Rom. 8:16, 17;) "if so be that we suffer with him," if we deny ourselves, if we take up our cross daily, if we cheerfully endure persecution or reproach for his sake, "that we may also be glorified together." And in whom doth the Spirit of God bear this witness? In all who are the children of God. By this very argument does the Apostle prove, in the preceding verses, that they are so: "As many," saith he, "as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father!" It follows, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (8:14-16.)

4. The variation of the phrase in the fifteenth verse is worthy our observation: "Ye have received the Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father!" Ye, as many as are the sons of God, have, in virtue of your sonship, received that selfsame Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father: We, the Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, (for so the word may not improperly be understood,) we, through whom you have believed, the "ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God." As we and you have one Lord, so we have one Spirit: As we have one faith, so we have one hope also. We and you are sealed with one "Spirit of promise," the earnest of your and of our inheritance: The same Spirit bearing witness with your and with our spirit, "that we are the children of God." (Rom. 8:14-16).

5. And thus is the Scripture fulfilled, "Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted." For it is easy to believe, that though sorrow may precede this witness of God's Spirit with our spirit; (indeed must, in some degree, while we groan under fear, and a sense of the wrath of God abiding on us;) yet, as soon as any man feeleth it in himself, his "sorrow is turned into joy." Whatever his pain may have been before; yet, as soon as that "hour is come, he remembereth the anguish no more, for joy" that he is born of God. It may be, many of you have now sorrow, because you are "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel;" because you are conscious to yourselves that you have not this Spirit; that you are "without hope and without God in the world." But when the Comforter is come, "then your heart shall rejoice;" yea, "your joy shall be full," and "that joy no man taketh from you." (John 16:22.) "We joy in God," will ye say, "through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement;"by whom we have access into this grace," this state of grace, of favor, or reconciliation with God, "wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Rom. 5:2.) "Ye," saith St. Peter, whom God hath "begotten again unto a lively hope, are kept by the power of God unto salvation: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations; that the trial of your faith may be found unto praise, and honor, and glory, at the appearing of Jesus Christ: In whom, though now ye see him not, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory." (1 Peter 1:5, etc..) Unspeakable indeed! It is not for the tongue of man to describe this joy in the Holy Ghost. It is "the hidden manna, which no man knoweth, save he that receiveth it." But this we know, it not only remains, but overflows, in the depth of affliction. "Are the comforts of God small" with his children, when all earthly comforts fail? Not so. But when sufferings most abound, the comforts of his Spirit do much more abound; insomuch that the sons of God "laugh at destruction when it cometh;" at want, pain, hell, and the grave; as knowing Him who "hath the keys of death and hell," and will shortly "cast them into the bottomless pit;" as hearing even now the great voice out of heaven, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:3, 4.)

III. 1. A Third scriptural mark of those who are born of God, and the greatest of all, is love; even "the love of God shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto them." (Rom. 5:5.) "Because they are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son in their hearts, crying, Abba, Father!" (Gal. 4:6.) By this Spirit, continually looking up to God as their reconciled and loving Father, they cry to him for their daily bread, for all things needful, whether for their souls or bodies. They continually pour out their hearts before him, knowing "they have the petitions which they ask of him." (1 John 5:15.) Their delight is in him. He is the joy of their heart; their "shield," and their "exceeding great reward." The desire of their soul is toward him; it is their "meat and drink to do his will;" and they are "satisfied as with marrow and fatness, while their mouth praiseth him with joyful lips." (Psalm 63:5.)

2. And, in this sense also, "every one who loveth him that begat, loveth him that is begotten of him." (1 John 5:1.) His spirit rejoiceth in God his Savior. He "loveth the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity." He is so "joined unto the Lord," as to be one spirit. His soul hangeth upon Him, and chooseth Him as altogether lovely, "the chiefest among ten thousand." He knoweth, he feeleth what that means, "My Beloved is mine, and I am his." (Song 2:16.) "Thou art fairer than the children of men; full of grace are thy lips, because God hath anointed thee for ever!" (Psalm 45:2.)

3. The necessary fruit of this love of God is the love of our neighbor; of every soul which God hath made; not excepting our enemies; not excepting those who are now "despitefully using and persecuting us;" -- a love whereby we love every man as ourselves; as we love our own souls. Nay, our Lord has expressed it still more strongly, teaching us to "love one another even as He hath loved us." Accordingly, the commandment written in the hearts of all those that love God, is no other than this, "As I have loved you, so love ye one another." Now, "herein perceive we the love of God, in that he laid down his life for us." (1 John 3:16.) "We ought," then, as the Apostle justly infers, "to lay down our lives for the brethren." If we feel ourselves ready to do this, then do we truly love our neighbor. Then "we know that we have passed from death unto life, because we" thus "love the brethren." (1 John 3:14.) "Hereby know we" that we are born of God, that we "dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his" loving "Spirit." (1 John 4:13.) For "love is of God; and every one that" thus "loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 John 4:7.)

4. But some may possibly ask, "Does not the Apostle say, 'This is the love of God, that we keep his commandments?'" (1 John 5:3.) Yea, and this is the love of our neighbor also, in the same sense as it is the love of God. But what would you infer from hence? that the keeping the outward commandments is all that is implied in loving God with all your heart, with all your mind, and soul, and strength, and in loving your neighbor as yourself? that the love of God is not an affection of the soul, but merely an outward service? and that the love of our neighbor is not a disposition of heart, but barely a course of outward works? To mention so wild an interpretation of the Apostle's words, is sufficiently to confute it. The plain indisputable meaning of that text is, -- this is the sign or proof of the love of God, of our keeping the first and great commandment, to keep the rest of his commandments. For true love, if it be once shed abroad in our heart, will constrain us so to do; since, whosoever loves God with all his heart, cannot but serve him with all his strength.

5. A Second fruit then of the love of God (so far as it can be distinguished from it) is universal obedience to him we love, and conformity to his will; obedience to all the commands of God, internal and external; obedience of the heart and of the life; in every temper, and in all manner of conversation. And one of the tempers most obviously implied herein, is, the being "zealous of good works;" the hungering and thirsting to do good, in every possible kind, unto all men; the rejoicing to "spend and be spent for them," for every child of man; not looking for any recompence in this world, but only in the resurrection of the just.

IV. 1. Thus have I plainly laid down those marks of the new birth which I find laid down in Scripture. Thus doth God himself answer that weighty question, What is it to be born of God? Such, if the appeal be made to the oracles of God, is "every one that is born of the Spirit." This it is, in the judgment of the Spirit of God, to be a son or a child of God: It is, so to believe in God, through Christ, as "not to commit sin," and to enjoy at all times, and in all places, that "peace of God which passeth all understanding." It is, so to hope in God through the Son of his love, as to have not only the "testimony of a good conscience," but also the Spirit of God "bearing witness with your spirits, that ye are the children of God;" whence cannot but spring the rejoicing in Him, through whom ye "have received the atonement." It is, so to love God, who hath thus loved you, as you never did love any creature: So that ye are constrained to love all men as yourselves; with a love not only ever burning in your hearts, but flaming out in all your actions and conversations, and making your whole life one "labor of love," one continued obedience to those commands, "Be ye merciful, as God is merciful;"Be ye holy, as I the Lord am holy:"Be ye perfect, as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

2. Who then are ye that are thus born of God? Ye "know the things which are given to you of God." Ye well know that ye are the children of God, and "can assure your hearts before him." And every one of you who has observed these words cannot but feel, and know of a truth, whether at this hour, (answer to God, and not to man!) you are thus a child of God or no. The question is not, what you was made in baptism; (do not evade;) but, What are you now? Is the Spirit of adoption now in your heart? To your own heart let the appeal be made. I ask not, whether you was born of water and of the Spirit; but are you now the temple of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in you? I allow you was "circumcised with the circumcision of Christ;" (as St. Paul emphatically terms baptism;) but does the Spirit of Christ and of glory now rest upon you? Else "your circumcision is become uncircumcision."

3 . Say not then in your heart, "I was once baptized, therefore I am now a child of God." Alas, that consequence will by no means hold. How many are the baptized gluttons and drunkards, the baptized liars and common swearers, the baptized railers and evil-speakers, the baptized whoremongers, thieves, extortioners? What think you? Are these now the children of God? Verily, I say unto you, whosoever you are, unto whom any one of the preceding characters belongs, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the works of your father ye do." Unto you I call, in the name of Him whom you crucify afresh, and in his words to your circumcised predecessors, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

4. How, indeed, except ye be born again! For ye are now dead in trespasses and sins. To say, then, that ye cannot be born again, that there is no new birth but in baptism, is to seal you all under damnation, to consign you to hell, without help, without hope. And perhaps some may think this just and right. In their zeal for the Lord of hosts, they may say, "Yea, cut off the sinners, the Amalekites! Let these Gibeonites be utterly destroyed! They deserve no less." No; nor I, nor you. Mine and your desert, as well as theirs, is hell; and it is mere mercy, free, undeserved mercy, that we are not now in unquenchable fire. You will say, "But we are washed;" we were born again "of water and of the Spirit." So were they: This, therefore, hinders not at all, but that ye may now be even as they. Know ye not, that "what is highly esteemed of men is an abomination in the sight of God?" Come forth, ye "saints of the world," ye that are honored of men, and see who will cast the first stone at them, at these wretches not fit to live upon the earth, these common harlots, adulterers, murderers. Only learn ye first what that meaneth, "He that hateth his brother is a murderer." (1 John 3:15.) "He that looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matt. 5:28.) "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God?" (James 4:4.)

5. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye" also "must be born again."Except ye" also "be born again, ye cannot see the kingdom of God." Lean no more on the staff of that broken reed, that ye were born again in baptism. Who denies that ye were then made children of God, and heirs of the kingdom of heaven? But, nevertheless this, ye are now children of the devil. Therefore ye must be born again. And let not Satan put it into your heart to cavil at a word, when the thing is clear. Ye have heard what are the marks of the children of God: All ye who have them not on your souls, baptized or unbaptized, must needs receive them, or without doubt ye will perish everlastingly. And if ye have been baptized, your only hope is this, -- that those who were made the children of God by baptism, but are now the children of the devil, may yet again receive "power to become the sons of God;" that they may receive again what they have lost, even the "Spirit of adoption, crying in their hearts, Abba, Father!"

Amen, Lord Jesus! May every one who prepareth his heart yet again to seek thy face, receive again that Spirit of adoption, and cry out, "Abba, Father!" Let him now again have power so to believe in thy name as to become a child of God; as to know and feel he hath "redemption in thy blood, even the forgiveness of sins;" and that he "cannot commit sin, because he is born of God." Let him be now "begotten again unto a living hope," so as to "purify himself as thou art pure;" and "because he is a son," let the Spirit of love and of glory rest upon him, cleansing him "from all filthiness of flesh and spirit," and teaching him to "perfect holiness in the fear of God!"

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Be Blessed!

1 posted on 09/05/2001 2:47:45 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Jude24,fortheDeclaration,P-Marlowe,George W. Bush,Uriel1975
2 posted on 09/05/2001 2:51:37 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drot, the_doc,Alas, Mark17, CCWoody,spudgin,Jefferson Adams
3 posted on 09/05/2001 2:53:55 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Jerry_M, Matchett-PI,firechaser,lockeliberty
Bump..did I forget anyone? If I did would you bump them..Tonight is church and I need to go soon!

God bless each of you!

4 posted on 09/05/2001 2:56:47 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Hey Mom, did you read my other post about that book store? I did check into it, but did not find Larkin or Spencer. I did not check to see if Bullinger or IDE Thomas were there, but I will do that directly.
5 posted on 09/05/2001 3:13:38 PM PDT by Mark17
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To: the_doc,TO ALL LURKERS
All of the statements below are YOUR HALFTRUTHS AND LIES

You can't even begin to refute our reading of John 6 or Romans 9 or Hebrews 10:14.

You just ignore everything we say. It's not as though you have reasonable counterarguments, because you definitely don't.

you flatly refuse to believe John 6 or Romans 9. You won't even discuss them intelligently.

You have no explanation for John 6:37, 39, and 44 or Romans 9. The Calvinistic position is correct. but You can ignore it, it won't change the Truth. So, ignoring it is dangerous. Why don't you deal with this problem?

And John 6 is perhaps the most staggering example of your contempt for sound doctrine. Verses 37, 39, and 44, taken together, utterly destroy everything in your Wesleyan/Arminian theology. This is why you IGNORE THE PASSAGE and why you IGNORE OUR WARNINGS about THAT.

A real bunch of RUBBISH if fact PURE RUBBISH

I would like everybody to take a look at what is below. Then ask if this qualifies as ignoring John 6. Then ask is this a REASONABLE ATTEMPT TO REFUTE THE CALVINIST READING OF JOHN 6. Then ask is this AN ATTEMPT TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM.

Then take note of the HYPOCRITE'S words

but You can ignore it, it won't change the Truth. So, ignoring it is dangerous.


In your 68 you state something very interesting

John 6 is perhaps the most staggering example of your contempt for sound doctrine. Verses 37, 39, and 44, taken together, utterly destroy everything in your Wesleyan/Arminian theology

I find it most interesting YOU STOP AT VERSE 44. if you read 45


That kinda pulls the rug out from under YOUR THEOLOGY, It is no wonder you CONVENIENTLY STOP at verse 44



84 Posted on 09/04/2001 14:59:14 PDT by

Please take notice that though there has been 97 more posts on that thread with many of the references that were stated at the beginning of this one included in that 97.

BUT 84 recieved the NORMAL TREATMENT "IT WAS IGNORED" But note the statements above saying that NO RESPONSE TOOK PLACE. WHAT ARE THEY ?



6 posted on 09/05/2001 4:56:52 PM PDT by drot
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To: RnMomof7
thanks for new thread
7 posted on 09/05/2001 7:00:51 PM PDT by jude24
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To: jude24
You are welcome jude!
8 posted on 09/05/2001 7:03:35 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drot
Just to stir the pot-- a friend at school sent me this link. His dad (a pastor) made these notes up earlier, and posted them on the web. its 97 pages from a very calvinist viewpoint, but i'm gonna review them tonite. Free Will and Election


9 posted on 09/05/2001 7:08:29 PM PDT by jude24
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To: Uriel1975, RnMomof7 & drot
If you do your in BIG TROUBLE as He has said somethings you either don't know or don't want to know - drot

Checkers is a fun game, don't you think, Uriel? BTW, I'll flag you when I get my post together for RnMom. You'll like what else I have to say about checkers.

10 posted on 09/05/2001 7:25:59 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Woody....can I refer you to Gal.1:10?

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Worry about God not Uriel:>))

11 posted on 09/05/2001 7:30:40 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Worry about God not Uriel:>))

I bet you didn't know that I often put secret notes of praise & thanksgiving to my God in the posts I write. Did you catch the one in that post? Do you know what it meant?

12 posted on 09/05/2001 7:49:49 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: drot
Nope. You are not honestly facing anything in the texts which I cited.

Your appeal to v.45 of John 6 means nothing. Verses 37, 39, and 45 destroy your anti-Reformation theology.

13 posted on 09/05/2001 9:38:09 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: fortheDeclaration, jude24, Matchett-PI, andysandmikesmom
[The is a repost from the end of the previous thread.]

To the_doc-anyone who can read English can see that 9-11 is parenthetical

It deals with Israel and her rejection and her future reacceptance.

Quit obscuring the point. Anyone who can read English can see that Romans 9 is talking about salvation and damnation in the entire chapter. Look at how the chapter starts. Look at how it concludes. Look at how the next chapter starts. QED, bubba.


In the beginning of Chapter 9, Paul is pointing out how much his kinsmen in the chosen nation of Israel had in the way of privileges as the professed people of God.

But notice that Paul is specifically lamenting the fact that these privileges did not save most of them. This is the point about which Paul is concerned. And it is the subject of the entire chapter. Notice what he says along these very lines. He comes up with a real shocker in v.6. He says that God had not intended to save most of them. This is obvious in v.6 in two ways. First of all, Paul is saying in v.6 that the Word of God did not fail to accomplish its purposes in the national of Israel.

(See also Isaiah 55:11. God's Word NEVER really fails. What appear to us to be failures on the part of the Word are not failures after all. Surprisingly enough, God is not trying to save everyone. Why does this surprise folks? It is because they do not understand the dilemma inherent in the free offer of the gospel. The free offer is sincere, but when unregenerate sinners exercise their free will, they don't come to Christ. Period. [The problem is, they won't repent.]

This oddly free refusal to accept the free offer of the gospel is the point of the parable of the feast in Luke 14. It is also the point of John 6:37, 39, and 44.

This horrible mess which fallen sinners are in is why we Calvinists have tirelessly pointed out to Christians and unspiritual scoffers on this thread that regeneration has to precede saving faith--not the other way around [as is ordinarily taught by careless theologians in our day].)

Back to the argument of Romans 9, I will reiterate that Paul is flatly declaring that God's Word had not failed to accomplish its purposes in national Israel. This is not a matter of interpretation, friend. This is an explicit statement in the text. You need to deal with it. And if you ever manage to deal with it honestly, you will have the entire doctrine of predestination confronting you.

Study it for a while if you can even stand to admit that you are wrong. (Most people on this forum can do no such thing, by the way.)

So, God's Word succeeded in establishing national Israel with all of its theocratic privileges. But the God of predestination was not trying to convert everyone in Israel--which is the sense in which the Word of God did not fail. And it is the very thing Paul is concerned to discuss. Paul finds solace in the decidedly awful, majestic will of His Sovereign God.

Paul elucidates this doctrine of God's will, of God's utterly sovereign, unstoppable purposes of salvation and damnation, in another thing which he says in v.6. He says that not all who were of Israel were Israel. He is telling us that there was an Israel within an Israel. This Biblical-theological oddity ultimately tells us that the theocratic election of Israel as a nation was an Old Covenant type for the soteriologic election of those who are chosen unto salvation.

This second body is the second Israel Paul talks about in v.6. It is related, BTW, to what Peter says in 1 Peter 2:9 when he refers to the saved as comprising a royal priesthood and holy nation. (Peter is borrowing the idea of literal Israel and applying it figuratively to the Church, which functions as a metaphorical nation with its King in Heaven.)

Now, the idea of being chosen is the main idea inherent in Israel, as far as Paul is concerned. But Paul is clearly telling us that it is possible to be chosen in the national sense and not chosen in the spiritual sense. It is possible to be in the first Israel and to miss the second Israel.

This is exactly what the Lord Jesus is telling us in John 10 concerning what He calls His sheep. Most Jews assumed, based on the Old Testament figures of the "sheep," that being in national Israel made them members of that flock which would surely be saved. But Jesus shocked them with the new revelation in John 10 that there is another election, i.e., another idea of Israel. And even if God had a theocratic flock, the flock which the Lord Jesus would serve as the Good Shepherd involves an altogether different election!

The net result of what the Lord was saying in John 10 is that it establishes the peculiar situation of an Israel within Israel. It tells us that some Jews were elect unto salvation, whereas many (actually, most) were not elect unto salvation. Those who were elect unto salvation were the Lord's true sheep in His special role as the Good Shepherd.

This is why we have the odd logic in John 10:26. Notice that it is presenting the reverse of what Wesleyan/Arminians want it to say. Faith doesn't get a sinner elected. Election is what actually guarantees that he will receive the supernatural gift of faith.

What I am saying, in case you did not notice, is that John 10:26 utterly destroys the Weseleyan/Arminian notion that God elects based on His precognition of a sinner's faith. According to the Lord's Own logic, election is the ultimate cause of the sinner's faith, not the result of his faith. John 6 also rules out the Wesleyan/Arminian position--very emphatically so.

(The Wesleyan/Arminian theologian does not understand what God's foreknowledge really is. It is a planning faculty, not mere precognition. God envisions a people of faith, and He makes that scenario happen.)

John 10:26 is telling us is that a non-elect sinner will never be morally able to believe the gospel. Intellectual apprehensions aside, his moral wickedness will seal his unbelief. He hates the Truth. He has no Truth-receptors in his soul--precisely because he is unregenerate. He has a nature of unbelief, of hatred for the Truths of his Creator. He will not believe the gospel. He will not come to Christ even when invited. (See again John 6:37, 39, and 44.)

But he may very well profess faith in Christ. That's different.

I would point out that reprobates confronted with the awful Truth of God's utter sovereignty in election and reprobation will just complain that if predestination is true, then the free offer of the gospel is a lie! They're wrong, of course. The Bible teaches both true predestination and a true free offer gospel. If folks can't grasp this in a believing way, that's too bad. They'd better quit calling God a liar. (But a reprobate will not stop calling God a liar--not in this life, anyway. So, when God throws him into hell forever, he gets precisely what he deserves. [He wouldn't stop calling God a liar, so God won't stop punishing him.])


As an aside, I would point out that the spiritual election which forms spiritual Israel is bigger than the election of national Israel. Spiritual Israel includes some Jews but a great many Gentiles. The Lord Jesus makes this point in John 10 when He says "Other sheep have I, and they are not of this fold. And there shall be one fold and One Shepherd." He is telling us that He intended to go out and secure the salvation of elect Gentiles and bring them into the Body of the saved, into the one fold of His True Church, the fold in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

When you start putting all of this together, the doctrines of election and reprobation are actually pretty easy. The Apostle Paul already had the material which we have in the form of John 10. He understood the election of grace. And he understood that being in the first Israel meant nothing in the way of salvation. And Paul noticed the very strange sovereignty of God in His dealings with the descendants of Abraham. He noticed that God continually exercised His sovereign prerogatives in chosing one descendant and rejecting another.

Jacob and Esau were the very best example of this. They were chosen to head two different nations, but Paul uses the very sovereignty of God's choosing to illustrate the soteriological point which he has been concerned to address from the very beginning of Chapter 9.

As Calvin pointed out, God's choice of one nation over another is emblematic of His sovereignty in spiritual election and spiritual non-election. Paul is definitely keying on this very point to illustrate what he was talking about in vv.1-6. Although it is true that Esau was the head of the nation of the Edomites, Paul was keying on the fact that Esau, a physical descendant of Abraham himself, was reprobate. And Esau was an individual. Reprobation is just as personal as salvation and damnation are. Esau was damned by the sovereign Creator Who owed him nothing anyway.

This is also why Paul goes on to talk about the reprobation of Pharaoh. Pharaoh was also an individual.


This stuff ain't hard. Romans 9 is obviously talking about salvation and damnation, and these are matters which go all the way down to the level of individuals. Some individuals within Paul's own physical nation were saved--because God saved them individually--but most of the individuals within Judaism were not saved. God simply left them in their unregenerate state. And He did this by the very design of His plan of self-glorification in election and reprobation.

He picks one individual and rejects another. He is the Potter making sovereign decisions with the clay of fallen humanity.

So, if you don't think this God is very glorious, maybe you need to realize that He's not all that impressed with you. Maybe you haven't given sufficient thought to the matter of sin. It is a lot worse than most people realize. (The Wesleyans are the worst I have ever encountered in their dullness concerning the horror of sin. But the easy-believism types who are ruining today's dispensational movement are not much better, IMO.)

Again, this is pretty easy, pretty clear doctrine. As I said in a humorous comment to jude24, I have the distinct advantage of defending the correct theological position. Some of the clearest passages in the Bible support me. And Romans 9 is one of the clearest of all.

On the other hand, it is impossible to embrace what Paul was saying in Romans 9 if you are determined to defy the Calvinistic position. Gosh, Paul was a Calvinist.

If you continue to argue this point by scoffing at me--as you have done incessantly up until this point--I will just start laughing at you. Your scoffing has gone on for too long already. You don't know whereof you speak, and thus far, you have been far too proud to admit that.

You really need to straighten up. And you need to quit trashing the Reformers. They were correct when they said that the issue which we are discussing was the most important issue of the entire Reformation. And even if no one else on FR is inclined to laugh at you, I don't care. I will have God Himself laughing with me (Psalm 2:4).

A sinner doesn't have to be a Calvinist to be saved. But then again, it's not a real good idea to scoff at predestinarian doctrine when God decides to make an issue of it with you in His providence. The Truth is more important in this regard than most people realize, and the modern apostasy from sound doctrine--which started in a big way with none other than John Wesley--is a pretty scary mess. (Wesley actually taught his followers to be "loving" folks, but he simultaneously taught them to hate many, many important Truths. Something awful was going on with that fellow. And I see it in his followers.)

I don't claim to have infallible discernment as to who is saved and who is lost. But I will say that I am presenting a God Whom most professing Christians in our day don't really know any more than the lost Jews knew Him in Paul's day. And that's not an accident, either.

You need to be sure your God is the God of Romans 9. He's the real God.

14 posted on 09/05/2001 9:53:42 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: the_doc
NOPE Nothing but halftruths and pure rubbish. The same old broken record of pride and arrongance. And again nothing but doc's opinion. And he does think he is infallable All one has to do is read his words.



15 posted on 09/06/2001 2:19:00 AM PDT by drot
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To: the_doc
In your no 14 you make the following statement

"Study it for a while if you can even stand to admit that you are wrong. (Most people on this forum can do no such thing, by the way.)

I would so much like to call your attention to this remark especially.

"and to admit that you are wrong. (Most people on this forum can do no such thing, by the way.)"


This ought to tell you something !!

The TRUTH will always come out



16 posted on 09/06/2001 2:35:44 AM PDT by drot
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To: the_doc
I couldnt disagree more with the assertion that Romans 9 is parenthetical. It most certainly is not. (Going from memory, analytical chem in 30 min):

Romans 8 concludes by saying our confidence is in the God who justified and the Christ who died in our place, such that nothing could separate us from him. Romans 9 is crucial to this-- can we trust God, given how Israel is in unbelief? So the purpose of this chapter is to vindicate God's dealings with Israel.

17 posted on 09/06/2001 4:24:59 AM PDT by jude24
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To: the_doc,TO ALL LURKERS
gain in your 14 You state the following

What I am saying, in case you did not notice, is that John 10:26 utterly destroys the Weseleyan/Arminian notion that God elects based on His precognition of a sinner's faith. According to the Lord's Own logic, election is the ultimate cause of the sinner's faith, not the result of his faith. John 6 also rules out the Wesleyan/Arminian position--very emphatically so.

Again some of doc's OWN OPINIONS And just as arrogant and full of pride in himself as usual.

Lets consider John 10:24--26

"John 10:24-27

First we must consider what the words of v. 24 imply.

But the problem all along had not been the problem of clarity about who Jesus really was. He gave evidence in the many miracles He had performed,and this would point to with even a clear answer In fact one would just have given them more ammunition which would have spurred them on even more in the area of thier hostility. One can read the words quite plainly

My sheep listen to my voice; I known them and they follow me (10:27)

At his point it becomes quite easy to conclude that the choice to accept Jesus lies outside of the individual's power. Right off I want to agree with the fact that only those who are allready in the flock can hear Jesus voice and follow

So then the critical question is


The answer to all of this has been given back in that FAMOUS chapter John 6 in Jesus earlier examination of thier unbelief. (John 6:43--45) It was quite plain that He taught that NO ONE could come unto Him unless the Father draws them. Here too it would appear like HUMAN WILL and belief has NOT a role to play. But in the very NEXT breath Jesus says this


Stout words indeed. For Jesus was not preaching Absolute Election or Predestination He was saying that the acceptance or rejection to listen and learn from the Father depended upon a persons willingness. Their exclusion from being of the flock depended upon thier choice or willingness to listen and learn of the Father.

A very important point needs to be made at this point. That is we have not been talking about a spiritual approach to God. Just a willingness to listen and learn of God. While man is spiritually dead and cannot approach or please God in any way. He can have the knowledge of a existence of God.

Now the Calvinist WILL tell you that natural man wants nothing to do with God. This is not totaly true. For in Rom 1:19 In reading on you see the awfull picture of sinful man becoming REPROBATE But please note something. Paul in describing the fallen state of man in Rom 3 uses the word ALL But in Rom 1 he uses the word THEY This denotes that NOT ALL are doing this or he would have used that word.

Now lets look at what these people were doing in Romans 1.

In every case above you can notice a CHOICE to refuse to learn about God. The Calvinist will very quickly quote Rom 3:11 to you

" There is none that UNDERSTANDETH God, there is none that SEEKETH after God"

But take note there is not a mention of the fact they can not LEARN about God when the chance is given. This chance comes in the form of His Word and the preaching of it. Sure they can reject this knowledge just as the Jews did in John 10. But there is an equall chance they can learn and be drawn to Jesus in doing so.

God bless


18 posted on 09/06/2001 4:27:46 AM PDT by drot
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In my last post I overlooked something very very important I stated

"But there is an equall chance they can learn and be drawn to Jesus in doing so."

I would like to add. The choice is man's to make. But this is ONLY because of God's LOVE and GRACE that is extended to EVERY MAN

Be blessed


19 posted on 09/06/2001 4:32:55 AM PDT by drot
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To: jude24

Just to stir the pot-- a friend at school sent me this link. His dad (a pastor) made these notes up earlier, and posted them on the web. its 97 pages from a very calvinist viewpoint, but i'm gonna review them tonite. Free Will and Election (Election.PDF)

Wow! What a superb lesson plan. My own Sunday school teacher is very good but I would love to sit in this Walt Svarczkopf's class. What an outstanding series of thirteen lessons! It's very sound and orthodox from the Calvinist (i.e. scriptural) view. A very mild drawback is the sparse use of a font which they did not include in the PDF but that doesn't detract at all from the lessons.

Thanks. I'm going to keep this one. I'd recommend it to all those who post here as it contains a very nice discussion of all the topics we discuss here endlessly including God's hatred (generally and also toward Jacob/Esau) and double predestination and man's free will vs. God's predestination.

I would have to say that the only drawback is that it just doesn't contain enough insults and condemnation to be suitable for extended quotes here at FR. You should convey to the author that if he wants to be a real Calvinist, he's just got to tell more people they're ignorant and damned. That's what works best. If he needs some pointers, you can invite him here.

20 posted on 09/06/2001 6:19:58 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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