Posted on 09/16/2001 2:09:38 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
I suppose you have Scripture to back this up?
This is a thread about a Christian response to the present situation. Do you have anything to contribute to that? There are plenty of other threads to whoop it up for war.
Catholic writer E. Michael Jones points out that marian apparitions typically happen in peasant cultures on the verge of hellish atrocities. Think how "peaceful" Yugoslavia has been. Jones goes into excruciating details on the weird little cultic cells organized around marian apparitions. Christianity is sane, wholesome, sound, healthy. Marian piety is sickly, effeminate, and perverted. A good way to throw a monkey wrench into the two primary human relationships -- with God, and with spouse.
First, common sense, then Scripture - I told my 8th grade son who is attending a private Christian school to use this analogy - say you are married with wife/kids, home asleep at night and a druggie with a knife breaks into your home. The dog barks, druggie panics, kills your wife and holds a knife to your daughter's neck. You have a gun, do you shoot or do you turn the other cheek? These terrorists have killed our families and ARE still actively holding a knife to our family's necks. We have a gun...
Scripture - Jesus said wipe the dust of those cities off your feet - they that reject the gospel God gives over to a reprobate mind (out of a tough Love, in hopes that they in their desperation will turn to Him. He does not force us to turn to Him). More to the point, Paul teaches that those who reject the law of Grace and subject themselves to the law of sin and death fall under the judgement of the law of sin and death - an eye for an eye. If Christians en masse continue to apply incorrect Scripture to this situation we will lose a golden opportunity to win many thousands of people to the Lord. The scriptures do teach to forgive, to turn the other cheek, to pray for your enemy, but they also teach about those with a reprobate mind and those who reject the gospel - which these terrorists have obviously done. Read your WHOLE Bible!...
I don't have quote Scripture to justify my response as a Christian to the killing of innocents. I just told you what my justification was - that more innocents will be SPECIFICALLY targeted by terrorists unless we take the risk of going after them, even if it means killing SOME innocents accidentally. I didn't see anything in the Bible about shepards standing idly by while their sheep are being slaughtered.
This is a thread about a Christian response to the present situation. Do you have anything to contribute to that? There are plenty of other threads to whoop it up for war.
Oh, pull the cork out of your @$$, oh pious one!
I agree. I've said on numerous posts that Islam is at war with the world. Look around the world at the trouble spots and you'll see Muslims fighting Christians, Jews, Hindus, and others. The Balkans have been at the forefront of this war for centuries, before there was an America. The Serbs had it right. Where is Milosevic when you need him?
WE SHOULD NEVER APOLOGIZE WHEN WE RECOGNIZE THAT ANOTHER'S FAITH IS WHAT DRIVES THEM TO MURDER,
WE SHOULD NEVER APOLOGIZE WHEN WE RECOGNIZE THAT ANOTHER'S FAITH DRIVES THEM TO CONDEMN US AND CALL FOR OUR DEATHS
WE SHOULD ALWAYS REPENT AND CALL ON GOD IN FEAR TO PROTECT US, BUT WE SHOULD HAVE OUR KNIVES SHARP AND OUR WEAPONS OILED SO WHEN WE GO INTO BATTLE, WE ARE PREPARED.
WHEN THE FARMER CALLS ON GOD FOR RAIN, HE IS STILL EXPECTED TO SOW SEED, PLOW THE FIELD, PLUCK WEEDS, AND HARVEST THE CROP.
WHEN WE CALL ON GOD TO DEFEND US AGAINST TERRORISTS, WE MUST BE READY WITH VIGILANCE, WITH ARMS, AND WITH COURAGE TO FACE THE ENEMY UNTIL THEY ARE VANQUISHED.
None of what I just said is against Scripture. These people have declared war against us because we support Israel. It is they who shoot us, it is they who bomb school buses in Israel, it is they who bomb stores in Israel, and now, it is they who fly airplanes into the WTC to try to kill us here.
THE BATTLE HAS ALREADY BEGUN. IF WE SIT AROUND THE CAMPFIRE AND SING KUM-BAY-YAH WITH THE TERRORISTS, WE ARE ASKING TO BE DESTROYED. THIS IS THE TIME TO FIGHT, FOR YOUR FAMILIES, FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS, AND FOR YOURSELVES.
This battle is no longer on foreign shores, it is right here in America!! WAKE UP!!!!
It must be remembered that the Holy Orthodox Church has specific services for blessing the arms of the Orthodox who go to war, a special service for remembering fallen Orthodox warriors, and an extra petition for victory over our enemies in the Great Ektenia (Litany) at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, which is said only in time of war. It must also be remembered that our faithful who kill, even in a just war, are placed under a penance--although the penance for justifiable killing, whether in war or self-defense is far less severe than that for murder.
As I pointed out on another thread, I think God has been merciful to us in not providing an example in the Gospels of how Christ dealt (or would have dealt) with an implacable threat of violence to another. We ought turn our own other cheek. We may not offer the cheeks of innocent others for smiting. To leave this threat unaddressed is to offer millions of our countrymen and fellow Christians up to death should our enemy succeed in their quest to obtain weapons of mass destruction. Each Christian is called to take up the Cross and follow Christ, to martyrdom if necessary. We may not offer our fellow man as a burnt offering to Islamic terrorists, their demands, or their false god.
I fear however, you have been inattentive. I have retracted only my specific call for nuclear annihilation of the capitals of our enemies, and raised the question of the appropriate Christian response. Please read some of my later posts on the thread.
don-o in obedience to his bishop is arguing against war, though not quite for pacifism.
I, following my bishop, am calling on us to wage war righteously, and asking my fellow Christians at FR to think with me what, in detail, that means. You will notice if you read my posts later on the thread that I have in mind actually addressing not whether, but how Christians ought fight a war against our current foe.
Even Christians have a duty to their country. If an enemy attacks their country, they have a duty to defend it. I would not place American troops in any unnecessary danger. It is still the duty of the soldier to allow the enemy the privilege of dying for his or her country. If we have the fuel-air bombs, we should use them. Any military response should be overwhelming and terminal.
That is not correct.
I am not arguing against war, nor is my bishop. What I am asking for is a sober and considered understanding of what we may and may not do and say as Chrristians.
Abp Laurus call first of all, for my own repentance for my sins, and to love those around me, including my enemies.
Asking not as a challenge, but as a request for information; why did you retract? What reasons justify your retraction? I'm not trying to be dense (that just comes naturally:-)
Cordially,
Luke 17:1-2 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Wreak vengance upon the guilty, not the innocent.
Ah, but He did give direction.
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
He directed his followers to provide for their own defense as a group - not that each one necessarily be armed, but that there be enough arms that some would provide defense of the others. That the sword was enumerated among mundane items indicates that it is intended for mundane purposes; on the national level, that means defense against those who seek to harm our nation violently (as opposed to sometimes-described semi-supernatural wars). A relevant counter-example was given, when Peter attempted to take on an armed mob, and Jesus repaired the damage and told him to "put your sword in its place" (but not to get rid of it) as that was not the time for defense. What we now face IS a time for defense.
We ought turn our own other cheek.
The term "smite" used in that verse refers to insult-level minor assaults, like someone slapping you; the point being to put up with largely harmless actions in the interest of keeping the peace. The Greek word used there is distinctly different from the term used for life-threatening assaults. Our nation faces 5000+ dead, not a sore cheek. The time for the application of the sword has come.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.