What was heard in your church today?

self | 9-16-2001 | self

[kosta50]

Thanks to both of you. I appreciate your responses.

Elsie, Jesus was not only a Jew, but a pious Jew. The fact that Jews do not accept Jews, who became Christians, as Jews means that -- from the Jewish point of view -- Christianity and Judiasim are incompatible because Christianity is a universal and not strictly Jewish religion. Accepting Christianity means accepting that God's people are all the people of this world, and that is incompatible with the Jewish concept of God, and we are speaking of the one and same God here supposedly. So, one side is wrong. Take your pick.

LS, are you saying that Jesus condoned Peter's behavior or simply "understood" his human frailty?

Secondly, you write But Jesus would never sit by and allow an abortionist to operate, any more than He would allow a terrorist to take over a plane. Really? But he does, obviously. If he is ever-present and knows everything, that is. You are projecting your own fantasy into this. You don't know what Jesus would have done any more than you know what Joe Blow next to you would have done. I think it is pretty presumptious to make such prophetic statements which are incompatible with day-to-day reality of abortions and terrorism.

[mustapha mond]

Old God = New God. It's the same one.-MM

[Elsie]

No, just those who try to use Christianity as a battle cry. Would you have found it less objectionable if I called them zealots?

Yes; yes I would. for THAT term has not been demonized in todays world.

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But, would you object to soldiers going to war, sent by their GOVERNMENT, going to kill other folks, perhaps be killed themselves, if they lean on their God and perhaps quotes from their book?

Would they fanatics in your eyes?

[kosta50]

Would they [be] fanatics in your eyes?

Elsie, this is everyone's world. Pushing one oinion or one god on everyone is fanatic, no matter how you turn it around.

[Elsie]

The fact that Jews do not accept Jews, who became Christians, as Jews means that -- from the Jewish point of view -- Christianity and Judiasim are incompatible because Christianity is a universal and not strictly Jewish religion. Accepting Christianity means accepting that God's people are all the people of this world, and that is incompatible with the Jewish concept of God, and we are speaking of the one and same God here supposedly.

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Not true. See what the Prophets had to say..........

Isaiah 42:6-7
 6.  "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
 7.  to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

 

Isaiah 49:5-6
 5.  And now the LORD says-- he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength--
 6.  he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

 

Isaiah 49:22
 22.  This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.

 

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^ Old ----------- New V

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Matthew 10:17-18
 17.  "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.
 18.  On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.

 

Luke 2:28-32
 28.  Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
 29.  "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace.
 30.  For my eyes have seen your salvation,
 31.  which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
 32.  a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

 

Acts 9:15-16
 15.  But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.
 16.  I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

 

Acts 10:44-45
 44.  While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
 45.  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

 

Acts 11:17-18
 17.  So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
 18.  When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

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It is very plain that the 'God' of the Old Testement was ALSO meant to be the God of ALL.

[kosta50]

Old God = New God. It's the same one

That's funny. Many keep saying that, but the fundamental concept of the Christian God (Trinity -- Father, Son, Holy Ghost, universal, etc.) is radically different from the Jewish concept of the "same" God (single deity, non-universal, etc.). Someone is mistaken. Or maybe both are?

[LS]

Boy are you theologically screwed up. Jesus, or God, cannot intervene in human affairs (save for a handful of exceptional circumstances that apparently have to do with the salvation timeline itself) unless men and women GIVE him that authority. He does not own the world yet---He owns it in lease form, but the world is Satan's until the lease runs out. Thus, the leasees (us) have to give Him permission to operate in their "apartments." So, no, He can't do anything about abortionists unless we do.

And no, Jesus' comments were not just "understanding" Peter's frailties. Clearly when you combine this with the MANY other times that Jesus dealt with military issues (the centurion, telling His disciples to "sell your tunic and buy a sword") He did not intend His followers to be pacifists, but to use force wisely and judiciously. This qualifies. And YES, the OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW ARE 100% COMPATIBLE, or Jesus' comment that "I came to FULFILL the law and not to destroy it" would be invalid. Jesus constantly pointed to OT prophecy and law and its relationship to THEIR lives---not the overturning or abolition of it. What Jews today do or don't do is irrelevant.

[Elsie]

How 'bout if we push one political system?

[Terriergal]

Awesome!

I was at a ladies' retreat where we tried to quiet our hearts and concentrate on the agenda which was set before this happened. However when it was prayed for, no one mentioned "turn the other cheek" stuff. This was very refreshing for me, especially from a bunch of women!

[Terriergal]

"The Christian conception of 'just war'" Can you refresh my memory please? Aren't there very specific criteria?

I'm not sure there are specific criteria. Not officially. There is continual debate on that kind of subject. I have an article entitled "The Christian At War" which is pretty good. Anyone can Freepmail me if you're interested, I'll dig it out and get it to you. It starts out a little heavy on the rhetoric but eventually gets around to making more sense. heh. Got it from Centurion2000, (don't want to hog the credit).

[Terriergal]

America's patron saint, Mary.

How can she be a "patron" Saint? Patron = father.

Anyway, I'm just nit picking. Sorry. ;-)

[Terriergal]

On Friday I was passing through St Cloud MN just as the noon special mass was starting. My friends and I were on our way to a ladies' retreat and felt we should stop and participate, even though we are not Catholic.

It was a nice mass, but every so often they would slip in stuff about "understanding the ways in which we provoked this kind of evil" and stuff. We would just sigh and think of our own words to replace those in the prayer.

[kosta50]

Boy, this is freaky! You actually believe this? I always knew there was some degree of superstition in religion, but this is better than any fairytale I read. Hey, it's your prerogative, it's your world as well.

[ConsistentLibertarian]

Thanks. Maybe I've missed it, but it looks like, on the Christian conception of a just war, if we go to war against Afghanistan or anyone else it would be immoral pending some resolution of the issues above at #35.