Know the Enemy 1: heretical Jihad vs "orthodox" Islam

various

[2ndMostConservativeBrdMember]

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[freefly]

A lot of the Old Testament -in particular- can be quite violent and
often contradicts what Jesus preached in the New Testament.
If you lift parts out of context, it gets even worse.
Focus on those parts of the Bible have resulted in a lot of ugly things being done in the name of G*d in the past.
There are a lot of websites that go into details on Biblical contradictions.
They too focus on the medium rather than the message, much the way those that I see picking at Islam do.
Focusing on the medium and ignoring the message has led a lot of people from the path(s) that G*d has laid out.
A lot of evil has been done in His name as a result.
I do not believe that He would approve.
(I think that is what He was really referring to when He handed
down the commandment about not taking His name in vain).
If you want details, you can look here and here and here too.
If you'd rather look at contradictions in the Quran, you can look at this site.
A quick search on Bible Contradictions found 30K+ sites.
Some better, some worse.
All focus on the details rather than the message.
IMHO, a mistake.

[freefly]

Sorry, 1st link is to a site that is under construction.
Too bad, it was actually one of the better thought out ones.

[ppaul]

.....what Jesus preached in the New Testament.

Yeah. And what did Jesus do?

Now compare that to what Muhammad, peace be upon him, preached and did.

A fair comparison?
In a nutshell: Peace versus violence & mayhem.

[Ditto]

You referred to the "Christian Bible" which I would consider to be the New Testament, not the Old. I am surely not a Bible scholar, but I know of nothing in the New that calls for violence or bloodshed. It is a message of love and forgiveness throughout.

[freefly]

"Peace versus violence & mayhem."

I don't see too many Christians cutting the Old Testament out of their Bibles and throwing it away.
Muslims also believe that Jesus was a prophet of G*d.
They follow His Word about as well as Christians have done over the last 2K years.
Looked at over the long term, I don't see too many religions in a position to be pointing fingers.

[ppaul]

Nobody was pointing fingers, freefly, except you. But an across the board comparison of the founders of the religions (regardless of the fanatic actions or words of their followers) is certainly the civilized and rational way to make an educated inquiry upon which to form an objective opinion. Wouldn't you agree?

[ppaul]

What say you?

[freefly]

Jesus preached a message that few have followed.
Even the Muslims acknowledge Him to be a prophet of G*d.
All too few Muslims OR Christians have followed His teachings over the centuries.
Self-interest and political agendas keep getting in the way.
Would type more but gotta go.
More another time...

[ExiledInTaiwan]

President Bush said to stop the hate-mongering against the religion of the Moslems. Try following his advice.

My sentiments exactly!

Even before the WTC attack saw many posts advocating the death of all Palestinians and Muslims. Some sick people around.

[freefly]

"Nobody was pointing fingers, freefly, except you."

After reading back through this thread, I have to disagree.
In fact, you were the 1st to do the pointing.
I may be guilty of it myself, but my purpose is to bring up the counter-point
that, while Muslims have been violent -especially in the past-
Christians have been guilty too and they justified their
actions using the Bible, -the whole Bible- not just the New Testament.
As far as a comparing the relative merits of religions,
who do you consider the "founder"?
From what I understand Moses is supposed to be the 1st prophet of G*d.
From him the Jews got their direction.
Jesus (a Jew) is supposed to be the next.
He pointed out a different path than the one that the Jews were following.
Muhammad is supposed to be the next.
His "revelations" are supposed to have occured because the Word of G*d's
1st prophet was corrupted by the Jews (because the Jews claim to be the
"chosen" of G*d and Muhammad did not believe that G*d would play favorites)
and that the Word of Jesus was subverted by opportunists.
Which prophet is the one whose word is to be followed?
Looking at Jesus, YES, His word IS worth following,
whether you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist or agnostic.
Would He consider following his Word to be a seperate "religion"?

I'm not here to debate which religion is "right".
I'm here because I'm seeing a religion (not my own) and it's followers demonized.
The way that is being done can be EQUALLY applied to other religions.
It is how the Taliban can convince people to do the things that they have done.
It can be used that way by others too.
And it will be just as ugly.
I think the right thing to focus on here is:
Do as you would be done by.
Good advice for everyone.

[goldstategop]

Let's add an interesting point to this presumption about supposed Islamic tolerance: in Saudi Arabia, a U.S ally, its forbidden for Christians to conduct worship services. Or to wear crosses as jewelry accessories. Ditto for Jews who are prohibited to live in the kingdom and for that matter in Jordan. And then for non-Muslim religious minorities across the Islamic world, their lot is one of enforced submission, harrassment, persecution, and mob violence if they dare to challenge their subordinate status in Muslim societies. And the Jews of the Arab world are virtually all extinct. So tell us again from the viewpoint of Islamic apologists how Islam's record translates into favorable treatment of those who are NOT Muslims.

[freefly]

As I said more than once:
I see the the "leaders" of those countries using Islam as a tool to dominate and manipulate their people.
Are they currently promoting the tolerant parts of their religion?
No.
Should they?
Yes.
Is Islam the only religion where the political leaders that teach and use it dwell on the parts that promote their agenda?
No.
MOST religions work very well for that...
including Christianity- as can be seen in it's history -using it's religious writings-
by anyone that has the brains to look and the guts to admit it.
The argument that "it's the fault of the religion" is what the Talimud uses to manufacture
hate of the Jews and Christians in their country.
It's the same game as has been played in centuries past with only the names changed.
The only reason I am on this thread is that I don't care to see Christians
fooled into the same hate-filled trap that too many Muslims are in.
When I see people "proving" that the religion itself is the source of the problem, I see the true source being ignored.
Hate them for their actions, hate them for being suckered by their politicians, certainly hate their leaders,
but hating them for their religion?
If you want to fall into that sucker's game, go right ahead.
Plenty of others have done it for thousands of years...including those led by the Taliban.
If you like the company, go right ahead and keep it.

Oh yea, if you think that looking for honest answers and for correct reasons for problems
is reason for labeling someone as an "apologist" then keep on believing it.
People who think just like that got us into this mess in the 1st place.
People that think otherwise will get us back out.
As usual.

FBI SWAMPED WITH OFFERS FROM ARAB-AMERICANS WITH ARABIC LANGUAGE SKILLS TO TRACK THE DIRTY RATS DOWN

INSIDE JIHAD U. (The Education of a Holy Warrior) A long read, but GOOD

[sanchmo]

From INSIDE JIHAD U. (The Education of a Holy Warrior)

One school of thought says it's the Americans' fault: American imperialism and the export of American social and sexual mores are to blame. The other school of thought holds that Islam, by its very nature, is in permanent competition with other civilizations. This is the theory expounded by the Harvard political scientist Samuel Huntington, who coined the term "Islam's bloody borders" -- a reference to the fact that wherever Islam rubs up against other civilizations -- Jewish, Christian, Hindu -- wars seem to break out.

Whenever I meet a Muslim fundamentalist, I ask them the same stupid-sounding question: Which is more important to Islam, greater jihad or lesser jihad? The answer, usually accompanied by an indulgent look, is usually something like, "They don't call it 'greater jihad' for nothing." The struggle against the external oppressor waxes and wanes, but the fight to suppress the evil inclinations within is perpetual.

But in my conversations with Haq, and with mullahs across Pakistan and Afghanistan, I kept getting a different answer. "They are of equal importance," Haq said. "Jihad against the oppressor of Muslims is an absolute duty. Islam is a religion that defends itself." Jihad against the devil without has assumed a place of permanent, even overriding importance in the way these mullahs look at the world. This was surprising to me, because not even the leaders of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, or sympathizers of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, ever answered the question this way.

When I asked Samiul Haq to explain why he placed so much emphasis on lesser jihad, he said: "Islam is a religion of limits. There are four pillars of Islam. Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca, you must make once, only if you have the means. There is a limit to how much charity you must give. In prayer, we only pray five times a day. And fasting, we fast for only one month, Ramadan. But for jihad, there are no limits. Jihad must be fought without limits. There is no compromise in jihad."

[sanchmo]

New thread: Know the Enemy 2: Scorecard of Terrorist Groups

[BigTime]

Bump

[dr_who]

..but one should not blame Christianity for what dishonest or hopelessly deluded individuals have done to misrepresent Christianity. Probably the case with a number of other religions as well.