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America's New Religiosity: God Bless America, But Don't You Dare Tell Us To Repent!
Alpha & Omega Ministries ^ | n/d | Dr. James White

Posted on 09/22/2001 10:00:05 AM PDT by BibChr

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To: BibChr, Conservative til I die
There is no evidence that the Apostles, Paul or any of the first Christians preached that God was divisible and "3 distinct persons". They were strict monotheists. They recognized Jesus was God in the Flesh, not the "Second Person". Trinitarianism says Jesus is Number Two. The Bible says He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega. There is no other name under heaven by which men are saved. The main problem with the Trinity, imo, is that it relegates Jesus, the ONLY One who saves, to junior status. Jesus is the same God of the Old Testament, with a robe of flesh. The Son is the Father in flesh form. Jesus was both human and deity. Jesus' prayers are His flesh crying to His spirit.

Read John 8:24. Jesus is Jehovah of the OT.

Read Isaiah 43:11, where it says there is no Savior but the God of the OT and ask yourself who saves. If you say only Jesus saves, then you can't possible believe that scripture in Isaiah.

I was born and raised in a Trinitarian church. I know what they preach. There is really no sense in continuing this discussion, as my mind will not be changed. I know God is indivsibly one and only one and that Jesus is the One.

And BibChr, there is no reason to act in such a haughty manner. Sometimes you don't give off a very good witness. Please don't take this as an insult but as a constructive criticism. Better a harsh word from a friend than a flattering one from an enemy.

101 posted on 09/22/2001 2:24:38 PM PDT by GuillermoX
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To: Dave S
And you wonder why the American people treat you like the Taliban? Many of you extreme fundamentalists share common characteristics with religious fantatics elsewhere. Maybe you dont cut off the hands of criminals or stone women who wear western clothes but then you did burn your share of witches not that many years ago and before that you forced Arabs and Indians in the new world to forcibly convert to Christianity or die by the sword.

Although I'd like to say more, let me just say that your comment is not the result of studied history.

102 posted on 09/22/2001 2:44:26 PM PDT by Dataman
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To: Dave S
Who the hell is forcing anyone to accept any of these gods? Mind your own fxx business. Its[sic] voices of intolerance whether from fundementalist Christian or Islam which is[sic] the trouble. Find God in your own way and dont feel that you have to destroy your neighbor to maintain your own faith. What a weak faith it is that cant stand proudly on its own.

Condemning intolerance while being yourself intolerant is.. well.. hypocrisy.

103 posted on 09/22/2001 2:49:46 PM PDT by Dataman
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To: mitch5501
As you can see,it is the bible that states "no man...but by Me" it is not something we assume.

But you assume that the bible is right.

104 posted on 09/22/2001 2:56:16 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: BibChr
The God Bless thing is shallow but consider this:

It is the first response.

It is displayed in both public and private institutions.

It drives the separation-of-C&S people nuts.

Churches were packed the following Sunday, giving many an opportunity to either hear the truth or be reminded of it.

By the time we hit the events in REVELATION, people react by cursing God, not asking for His blessing!


105 posted on 09/22/2001 2:56:17 PM PDT by Dataman
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To: BMCDA
"But you assume that the bible is right."

You really think that's it,that christians simply assume the bible is right and away we go telling everyone else they have it wrong?

I believe the bible is the Word of God for many reasons,one of which is it's profound understanding of the human condition.

Assume?...that's a big assumption on your part.

May God bless you

May God bless America

106 posted on 09/22/2001 3:03:45 PM PDT by mitch5501 (Jesus is Lord)
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To: BibChr
We need to realize: this new American religiosity can take on the same kind of fanatic zeal that kept the hi-jackers’ hands steady all the way to their end.

I have some particularly strong concerns and thoughts about this point. A watered down, feel-good, handy sort of religion can be very dangerous when pursued with a passion driven by a desperate societal urgency and when politics and government become involved. I see the potential of the seeds being sown.

Good article, Dan. Thanks.

107 posted on 09/22/2001 3:04:51 PM PDT by Prince Caspian
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To: mitch5501
May God bless you

May God bless America

That means very much, coming from an Australian! Thanks.


108 posted on 09/22/2001 3:11:38 PM PDT by Dataman
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To: Dataman
G'day bro' 8-)

I mean it with all the sincerity I can muster my friend....

MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA!

grace and peace to you

109 posted on 09/22/2001 3:16:22 PM PDT by mitch5501 (Jesus is Lord)
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To: mitch5501
Dóh!! who left the bold on?
110 posted on 09/22/2001 3:17:35 PM PDT by mitch5501 (Jesus is Lord)
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To: mitch5501
People of other creeds claim exactly the same to be the case with their religion and holy books.
111 posted on 09/22/2001 3:34:17 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: BibChr
Thanks for a great post.

We, as believers, always bear a greater burden than any to be of a repentant spirit, but especially now.

"For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God; and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God." -I Peter 4:17

112 posted on 09/22/2001 3:46:22 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: BMCDA
"People of other creeds claim exactly the same to be the case with their religion and holy books."

Yes they certainly do...would you like to bring some forward and we can compare?

Let's see just which one is the closest to reality shall we,which one has the best description of the world around us and especially which one has the best description of human nature....and it's remedy.

Your call....

May God bless you

113 posted on 09/22/2001 3:48:06 PM PDT by mitch5501 (Jesus is Lord)
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To: BibChr
Jeremiah had the same problem when God sent him to tell Israel to repent.
The people of Judah did not want to hear Jeremiah's warnings, they wanted to here what the
false prophets had to say because it was all good, happy things.
Here is what God had to say:
Jeremiah 23:16 - Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto
the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make
you vain; they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
23:17 - They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said,
YOU SHALL HAVE PEACE; and they say unto every one that walks after the
imagination of his own heart, NO EVIL shall come upon you.
23:21 - I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran:
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
23:22 - But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people
to hear my word, then they should have turned from their evil ways, and from the evil of their doings.
Read Jereimah. No one wanted to hear him say,
"Thus saith THE LORD." and as in those days many only want to hear good, feely, positive things.
114 posted on 09/22/2001 4:10:58 PM PDT by BearPaw1
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To: Conservative til I die
I'd never thought in terms of silliness. My mind snaps to another cult, when I think of that word (I don't want this thread overwhelmed, so I abstain). But it'd definitely be up there.

What's ironic to me is that Jehovah's Witnesses, who clearly DO NOT even understand the doctrine they are rejecting, are actually refuting "Oneness" theology when they constantly ask, doorstep to doorstep, "Was Jesus praying to Himself?" The Biblical Trinitarian recognizes that the very simplicity of the question reveals the questioner's lack of basic understanding; the Oneness heretic however cannot answer it rationally. To Him, Jesus was talking to Himself. Again and again and again. And answering Himself.

Whoa.

Dan Dan

115 posted on 09/22/2001 4:44:20 PM PDT by BibChr
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To: BibChr
...Sounds to me like "get in the box." I end my day with a confession, My God, forgive me my tresspasses, as I forgive those...
116 posted on 09/22/2001 4:44:27 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: 1lawlady
You bring this back to my mind:

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
(1 Peter 4:17)

Dan

117 posted on 09/22/2001 4:47:12 PM PDT by BibChr
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To: Dataman
It drives the separation-of-C&S people nuts.

Well, yes... that IS a wonderful thing!

Dan

118 posted on 09/22/2001 4:50:59 PM PDT by BibChr
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To: BearPaw1
Good citation. Yes, for my whole Christian ministry, I've found Jeremiah a very apposite and moving read. He suffered with a society hell-bent on destroying themselves by rejecting the Word of God. It broke Jeremiah's heart. He tried to quit; he couldn't (ch. 17). Very moving.

Dan

119 posted on 09/22/2001 4:54:02 PM PDT by BibChr
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To: mitch5501
I don't think religions are close descriptions of reality at all. Therefore the question which religion is the more realistic one doesn't even arise for me.
Religion itself is the problem.
120 posted on 09/22/2001 5:35:09 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: BibChr
One thing that I should also say: There is GOOD NEW! We have HOPE!!
For God so loved the world, He sent His only Son, that who so ever believes in Him,
should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
121 posted on 09/22/2001 6:06:34 PM PDT by BearPaw1
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Comment #122 Removed by Moderator

To: BMCDA
"I don't think religions are close descriptions of reality at all."

I gathered that.I (obviously) believe you are seriously wrong.

Let me try to explain...

In relation to the recent attacks on America I believe the bible gives a very vivid description of reality.

In order to ultimately win the war on terrorism every angle must be looked at.

America is going to respond to those terrorists with military force and pursue those who harbour terrorists.What people seem to be missing is that ultimately they are dealing with an enemy that is now entrenching himself within people...and you can't bomb something like that.This type of enemy feeds and grows on fear.It is evil and it feeds and sustains itself on evil.

When folks talk about making the area a glass parking lot for instance (and there has been tons more said on this site alone)they are showing total disregard for many innocent people including women and children who may well die as a result.It would not be difficult to go back over a few threads from the last few days and come up with the sort of list of posts that Bin Laden himself would gladly hold up to muslims to show them his interpretation of what Americans think of them....and thereby strengthen his position...and that of other terrorists.People need to realize that in many subtle ways they are empowering their enemies with what they are saying.

The apostle Paul understood this well....Romans 12:17 "Repay no one evil for evil..." To bring Bin Laden and all other terrorists to justice is not evil.However...to have any disregard for innocent people's lives is.To totally destroy terrorists operations (if neccesary with war,which inevitably leads to innocent casualties)is not evil.To be gleeful over the fact that many are going to die is.

Many think not repaying evil for evil is a soft touch approach...I rather think it is unemotional and calculating...something you need to be when planning tactics.

Military might can destroy those who use terror as a weapon....but it can't fight terror itself....it isn't a gun or a knife,it isn't a bomb,it isn't chemical reactions or electrical impulses...it is not physically quantifiable...yet it is very real....and it can make economies crash (amongst other things).

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

I see this reality playing itself out right now...and the bible helps me understand what is going on...and where it is headed...and why it is headed that way.

"Therefore the question which religion is the more realistic one doesn't even arise for me."

I sincerely hope that it does arise for you.

" Religion itself is the problem."

Rather: religion can be the problem.You've probably heard this before but I will add that Christianity is not so much about religion as it is about knowing God personally.I know that many people believe they know God....maybe even Bin Laden as well....but it's not neccesarily what people say they believe that is actually what they do believe.

Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

thank's for your reply and May God bless you.

123 posted on 09/22/2001 7:00:01 PM PDT by mitch5501 (Jesus is Lord)
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To: BibChr
Dan: I don't have time to read many of the replies to your post, but I can imagine the grief you are going to get from both sides over this article. As for myself, I believe this is the best article on the subject I have read up until now. A bases-loaded home run in my book.
124 posted on 09/22/2001 7:30:38 PM PDT by epow
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To: BMCDA
I don't think religions are close descriptions of reality at all. Therefore the question which religion is the more realistic one doesn't even arise for me. Religion itself is the problem.

Oh, here we go, another enlightened fellow who's transcended the whole religion thing us knuckledragger's cling to. Well, if you believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, I am not sure how you can be against religion. God clearly chose the Jews and gave them an organized system of customs. beliefs, and rituals, which is to say, religion. Jesus Christ started His own Church, which was a visible body of believers. The Muslims believe something along the same lines themselves.
125 posted on 09/22/2001 7:35:24 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: GuillermoX
The Son is the Father in flesh form. Jesus was both human and deity. Jesus' prayers are His flesh crying to His spirit.

What? Whoa whoa whoa, where are you getting this from? Seems like you are inputting opinion, not stating some biblical fact.
126 posted on 09/22/2001 7:39:13 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: mitch5501
When folks talk about making the area a glass parking lot for instance (and there has been tons more said on this site alone)they are showing total disregard for many innocent people including women and children who may well die as a result.

I know, I read these statements and I absolutely reject these tactics (this "eye for an eye" and "let God sort them out" isn't quite my world). Of course, those who were responsible should be brought to justice but that's not the issue here.

You've probably heard this before but I will add that Christianity is not so much about religion as it is about knowing God personally.

The problem with this is that you can apply it to other religions as well. Others also know their god(s) personally and it is definitely not your god (and there are myriads of deities that were personally known by their worshippers). So what makes you so sure that this god-experience isn't an artifact of your brain?
Concerning the beliefs of bin Laden and the terrorists I am sure they are respectively were genuine. Fanatics are not only convinced of their beliefs (what's quite normal) but they lack doubt - the doubt that they may err. Strong held convictions are prone to turn into blinders and this is often the case with religions (but also secular ideologies) because they claim inerrancy for themselves.

What I meant when I said that religion is the problem was that the concept of religion (with its beliefs in deities, the supernatural, etc.) doesn't make sense to me. To pick a certain religion without being convinced that the concept behind religion is reasonable is doing the second step before the first.

Regards

Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived.
[Oscar Wilde]

127 posted on 09/22/2001 8:36:06 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: BMCDA
italians be gone
128 posted on 09/22/2001 8:46:43 PM PDT by mitch5501 (Jesus is Lord)
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To: GuillermoX
I don't see many "Christian Leaders" placing some of the blame on a lukewarm and complacent church.Bingo

The fate of American has always been in the hands of God's people and He speaks to us not the unsaved when He saids..

If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face
and turn from their wicked ways,
then will I hear from heaven and heal their land. 2 Chr 7:14

This was the Scripture on my calendar for September 11

129 posted on 09/22/2001 8:46:52 PM PDT by apackof2
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To: BibChr
bump
130 posted on 09/22/2001 8:46:53 PM PDT by lexington minuteman
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To: mitch5501
now?
131 posted on 09/22/2001 8:47:29 PM PDT by mitch5501
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To: DJ MacWoW
Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. Islamics believe Mohammed was the prophet fortold. Of course, the Jews believe neither. This is a VERY simplistic answer but I think it does answer your question.

This is the closest explanation to the truth. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Muslim faith believe in the same God of the Bible ?

Isn't their Allah and the Christian God of the Bible one and the same ? Except of course Islam does not recognize Jesus being the Son of God. From what I understand, they recognize Jesus as being a good man and a prophet.

132 posted on 09/22/2001 9:01:54 PM PDT by DreamWeaver
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To: DreamWeaver
tags off?
133 posted on 09/22/2001 9:15:04 PM PDT by mitch5501
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To: mitch5501
this is not happening! away!!
134 posted on 09/22/2001 9:15:42 PM PDT by mitch5501
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To: mitch5501
italics off pleeeese!
135 posted on 09/22/2001 9:19:17 PM PDT by mitch5501
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To: DreamWeaver
Allah is the pagan god of the moon.
136 posted on 09/22/2001 9:24:11 PM PDT by lockeliberty
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To: DreamWeaver
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Muslim faith believe in the same God of the Bible ?

They did until Mohammed showed up and declared himself THE prophet. Mohammed wrote the current version of the Koran and he used to have "visions". From historical descriptions, he had epilepsy and had the "visions" during seizures.

Isn't their Allah and the Christian God of the Bible one and the same ? Except of course Islam does not recognize Jesus being the Son of God. From what I understand, they recognize Jesus as being a good man and a prophet.

I've never read The Koran for myself, only heard others quote it. I was told it does mention Jesus as a prophet.

137 posted on 09/22/2001 9:37:43 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW
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To: mitch5501
I'm so smart.

I figured out the Italian problem. It was tricky!

< smug grin >

Dan

138 posted on 09/22/2001 9:46:20 PM PDT by BibChr
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To: BMCDA, BibChr
"The problem with this is that you can apply it to other religions as well. Others also know their god(s) personally and it is definitely not your god (and there are myriads of deities that were personally known by their worshippers). So what makes you so sure that this god-experience isn't an artifact of your brain?"

You seem to be going around in circles.You are saying basically the same thing you said in #111 to which I answered in #123.I gave you a reason why I believe what I believe,not something based on an experience.You obviously didn't see it that way hence you say the same thing again.I hope you are not arguing on atheist auto-pilot here.

" Concerning the beliefs of bin Laden and the terrorists I am sure they are respectively were genuine. Fanatics are not only convinced of their beliefs (what's quite normal) but they lack doubt - the doubt that they may err. Strong held convictions are prone to turn into blinders and this is often the case with religions (but also secular ideologies) because they claim inerrancy for themselves."

So..."they lack doubt - the doubt they may err" which would make them prone to going right past any rational statements and continue in their dogmatic viewpoint yes?

and "Strong held convictions are prone to turn into blinders and this is often the case with religions (but also secular ideologies)..."

They certainly are and to be honest I think you have just demonstrated that yourself by going straight past my reason and saying the same thing again....ie:"what makes you so sure?"

"What I meant when I said that religion is the problem was that the concept of religion (with its beliefs in deities, the supernatural, etc.) doesn't make sense to me. To pick a certain religion without being convinced that the concept behind religion is reasonable is doing the second step before the first."

You are doing it again friend..."to pick a certain religion without being convinced" is not what I am doing or have done and the fact it has come up three times already in spite of my explainations tells me that you have "Strong held convictions are prone to turn into blinders" more right than you obviously realize.

Do you believe you are immune to this?

thanks for the reply,at the least I will call you friend.

May God bless you and God bless America.

ps thanks Dan! you're a champ!

139 posted on 09/22/2001 9:52:42 PM PDT by mitch5501 (Jesus is Lord)
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To: BibChr
I'm a sinner; all of my family are sinners. But I can assurdly say our sin deserves in no way this attack by madmen. You are wrong. This nation, as a whole is good.

Sure there is evil here, but we need to fight the good fight to overcome evil, not "take our punishment."

140 posted on 09/22/2001 10:00:26 PM PDT by Ace's Dad (abloucks@aol.com)
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To: Ace's Dad
I'm a sinner; all of my family are sinners. But I can assurdly say our sin deserves in no way this attack by madmen. You are wrong. This nation, as a whole is good.

I am wrong? What did I say that was wrong? Are you thinking I wrote the essay above?

"This nation, as a whole is good"? By what definition? Are you telling me that abortion isn't legal, that it hasn't been legal for the last TWENTY-EIGHT years, that it doesn't claim FOUR THOUSAND American lives EVERY DAY? Are you telling me that homosexuality ISN'T given a protected status in America? Are you telling me that materialism, covetousness, ungodliness, lying, and immorality AREN'T ruling influences in American art and culture? Are you telling me that those who take Jesus seriously AREN'T disenfranchised and ridiculed in American art and culture?

What are you telling me? Anything other than an emotional response?

However, as to this --

Sure there is evil here, but we need to fight the good fight to overcome evil, not "take our punishment."

--what did I ever say that would make you think I'd disagree with that statement?

Dan

141 posted on 09/22/2001 10:23:54 PM PDT by BibChr
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To: Dave S
We what??????!!!!!!!
142 posted on 09/22/2001 10:29:36 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: Dave S
Well, thanks, now I understand where you are coming from.
143 posted on 09/22/2001 10:44:23 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: BibChr
Judging by the posts over the last eleven days, including this one, we now have the following collection of miscreants to blame for the events of September 11: Atheists, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, the ACLU, Bill Clinton, Mormons, Unitarians, Muslims (of course), Democrats, the New York Times, the New World Order, Secular Humanists, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, Freudians, Darwinists, Abortionists, Leftists, Marxists, everybody from Berkley, the IRS, ABC News, Greenpeace, Christian Scientists, Hillary Clinton, the hapless folk who live in what one keenly observent poster called the "Socialist Republic of New York," Al Gore, Hollywood, Welfare Mothers, the Rev. Al Sharpton (what blame game would be complete without him), Roman Catholics, Homosexuals, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Jews, Scientologists, everybody from San Francisco, Ted Kennedy, Jimmy Carter, Liberals in general, Socialists, Communists, Environmentalists, Tree Huggers, Rosicrucians, Buddhists, Hindus, Episcopalians, Jesse Jackson, Quakers, Confucians, Taoists, Shintos, just about everybody from Massachusets, Gary Condit, Multiculturalists, Moral Relativists, Bill Maher, the Media Establisment, Congregationilists, and just for the heck of it I'll throw in the Amish. Did I leave anybody out? Oh yeah. Those lunatics on the planes. Remember them?
144 posted on 09/22/2001 10:47:41 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: MissAmericanPie
Amen, there is nothing new under the sun.

I find that very comforting somehow.

145 posted on 09/22/2001 10:50:33 PM PDT by ladyinred
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Comment #146 Removed by Moderator

To: BibChr
Actually, I find hypocrisy in watching the same members of Congress that absolutely want God removed from every institution in America up there last week singing "God Bless America". Is it hypocrisy or is it God shining through to some of these folks?? I would like to believe it's the latter, but call me skeptical.
147 posted on 09/22/2001 10:59:55 PM PDT by MoJo2001
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To: BibChr / MoJo2001
Oh yeah. I forgot all about the Congress. Throw them in there too.
148 posted on 09/22/2001 11:03:30 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: Ace's Dad
Amen.
149 posted on 09/22/2001 11:29:37 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: BibChr Dave S
BibChr, Good post!

baa

150 posted on 09/22/2001 11:39:32 PM PDT by woollyone
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