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Tuscany's Excalibur Is The Real Thing, Say Scientists
The Observer ^ | 9-16-2001 | Rory Carroll

Posted on 09/24/2001 7:46:55 PM PDT by blam

Tuscany's Excalibur is the real thing, say scientists

Rory Carroll in Rome
Sunday September 16, 2001
The Observer

The sword of St Galgano, said to have been plunged into a rock by a medieval Tuscan knight, has been authenticated, bolstering Italy's version of the Excalibur legend. Galgano Guidotti, a noble from Chiusdano, near Siena, allegedly split the stone with his sword in 1180 after renouncing war to become a hermit. For centuries the sword was assumed to be a fake. but research revealed last week has dated its metal to the twelfth century.

Only the hilt, wooden grip and a few inches of the 3ft blade poke from the hill, which still draws pilgrims and tourists to the ruins of the chapel built around it.

'Dating metal is a very difficult task, but we can say that the composition of the metal and the style are compatible with the era of the legend,' said Luigi Garlaschelli, of the University of Pavia. 'We have succeeded in refuting those who maintain that it is a recent fake.'

Ground-penetrating radar analysis revealed that beneath the sword there is a cavity, 2m by 1m, which is thought to be a burial recess, possibly containing the knight's body. 'To know more we have to excavate,' said Garlaschelli, whose findings have been published in Focus magazine.

Carbon-dating confirmed that two mummified hands(DNA?) in the same chapel at Montesiepi were also from the twelfth century. Legend has it that anyone who tried to remove the sword had their arms ripped out.

In English legend the sword Excalibur is pulled from a stone by the future King Arthur, heralding his glory. In Galgano's case the miracle signified humility and holiness.

The son of an illiterate feudal lord, Galgano had a reputation for arrogance and selfishness. After a vision of the Archangel Michael, however, he retired to a cave to become a hermit. Lured out by his family he was thrown by his horse while passing Montesiepi, a hill near Chiusdano, where another vision told him to renounce material things.

Galgano objected that that would be as difficult as splitting a rock and to prove his point he struck one with his sword. The rock, it is said, yielded like butter.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: chiusdano; excalibur; galganoguidotti; godsgravesglyphs; italy; siena; stgalgano; tuscany
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Don't know anything about this subject. I do know that some believe that the Archangel Michael was a comet.
1 posted on 09/24/2001 7:46:55 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
My understanding is that Excalibur is the sword that Arthur got from the lady in the lake after the cheap piece of Chicom-made crap that Merlin stuck in a stone for him to pull out broke.

Also, the Arthurian legends supposedly had their genesis in the 8th or 9th centuries, not the 11th or 12th.

2 posted on 09/24/2001 7:54:01 PM PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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To: blam
You mean he played with Bill Haley? Wow, that would make him really old huh?.

---max

3 posted on 09/24/2001 7:54:53 PM PDT by max61
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To: FateAmenableToChange
"Also, the Arthurian legends supposedly had their genesis in the 8th or 9th centuries, not the 11th or 12th."

Thanks. I wondered about the reference to King Arthur also. Most date him to around AD540. I just thought perhaps there was another King Arthur.(?)

4 posted on 09/24/2001 8:01:01 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I do know that some believe that the Archangel Michael was a comet.

Probably aliens messing with Medievil minds way back then.

Read Wiliam Bramley's "The Gods of Eden"

5 posted on 09/24/2001 8:02:02 PM PDT by Alan Ford
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To: blam
Present it to Dubbya when the Brits dub him Sir George the Lionheart....
6 posted on 09/24/2001 8:04:18 PM PDT by spokeshave
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To: blam
No this isn't Excalibur. I threw the durn thing back in the lake centuries ago. parsy.
7 posted on 09/24/2001 8:05:42 PM PDT by parsifal
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To: parsifal
Arthur

I. Introduction

Arthur, legendary king of the Britons in ancient times, and the major figure in Arthurian legend. Arthur expelled foreigners from Britain, brought peace to the country, and established a kingdom based on justice, law, and morality. He held court at his castle at Camelot and instituted an order known as the knights of the Round Table. Eventually his realm crumbled, and his illegitimate son Mordred grievously wounded him in battle. Many versions of Arthurian legend say that Arthur will someday return, when he is again needed by Britain.

II. Legend

Arthur is the son of King Uther Pendragon and the lady Ygraine (who was married to Gorlois, the duke of Cornwall, when Arthur was conceived). After Arthur is born, the magician Merlin gives him to a man named Hector (also called Antor) to be raised with Hector's son, Kay. Arthur grows up as a commoner, but then he alone succeeds at a test devised to choose Uther's successor: Arthur draws a sword from a stone (or, in some versions of the story, from an anvil).

Because of his humble origins, Arthur must overcome strong opposition from the British nobles to his royal claim, but eventually he is crowned. To help him in his task of leading Britain, he receives a great sword, Excalibur, offered by a hand that rises mysteriously from a lake. To defeat Britain's enemies, Arthur undertakes a series of wars, conquests, and invasions. After Arthur completes these, Britain has a long period of peace and security. Arthur sets up the Round Table as a meeting place for his knights. The shape of the table ensures that all who sit around it are equal in status.

Arthur meets and marries the lady Guinevere, but she and Lancelot, one of Arthur's favored knights, eventually fall in love, and their relationship divides Camelot. The ruin of the kingdom is hastened by the quest for the Holy Grail, the sacred cup used by Jesus Christ at the Last Supper. However worthy an enterprise the quest may be, it takes Arthur's best knights away from court and leads many of them to their deaths. Once Arthur discovers Lancelot and Guinevere's love affair, his own system of justice requires that he condemn his wife to death. Lancelot rescues her, however, initiating a war between his forces and those of Arthur and the knight Gawain.

During the conflict with Lancelot, Arthur learns that the Romans plan to attack him. He fights and defeats them, but at the same time his illegitimate son (or, in some texts, his nephew), Mordred, tries to usurp the throne. Arthur then battles Mordred in a terrible conflict on Salisbury Plain that leaves many knights dead. Arthur kills Mordred, but before dying, the young man gravely wounds the king.

Facing death, Arthur orders one of his knights (Bedivere or Girflet, depending on the story) to throw Excalibur into a lake, so that the sword cannot fall into the wrong hands. Versions of the legend differ about Arthur's fate thereafter. Some say that he dies and is buried, others tell that a boat (usually containing a number of women, including Arthur's half sister Morgan le Fay) takes him away to the island of Avalon. Many works promise that Arthur will return when Britain again needs him to subdue the nation's enemies and to bring peace and security to the land.

(snip)

8 posted on 09/24/2001 8:13:29 PM PDT by blam
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To: FateAmenableToChange
"You can't expect to wield Supreme executive power, just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
9 posted on 09/24/2001 8:14:17 PM PDT by j_tull
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To: max61
"You mean he played with Bill Haley?"

Yup. ..and they 'Rocked around the clock."

10 posted on 09/24/2001 8:15:46 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam, j_tull
"Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."


11 posted on 09/24/2001 8:21:30 PM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: blam
Dear Blam:

Later legend surrounding King Richard suggests that on March 7, 1192(?), he gifted the legendary sword Excalibur to King Tancred of Leece, thus prompting some of the uprisings against him while he fought in Europe.

(Positive of the date, but not the year. It was just a few years prior to his death from an arrow wound near his heart).

12 posted on 09/24/2001 8:27:55 PM PDT by TheWriter
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To: blam
No, No, No. You can't believe everything you read.

"Knowing he was dying, Arthur asked Percival to take Excalibur back to the Lady of the Lake. However Percival decided to keep Excalibur for himself and on returning to Arthur reporting that nothing had happened. Arthur told Percival that he had not done what was asked and to do it. This time Percival did throw Excalibur into the lake and the Lady caught it. Soon after Arthur died and his body was taken to the Isle of Avalon where, according to legend, he waits until England needs him again.

The story doesn't end there. Galahad took the throne as Arthur's chosen and at least stemmed the disintegration of Arthur's kingdom. Percival continued his grail quest eventually finding it but when he touched it he disappeared.

13 posted on 09/24/2001 8:30:12 PM PDT by parsifal
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To: Constitution Day
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

ARTHUR: Shut up!

DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!

ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!

DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.

ARTHUR: Shut up!

DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!

ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!

DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?

14 posted on 09/24/2001 8:41:51 PM PDT by dzurn
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To: dzurn
My favorite Python skit! Dennis the Peasant-- classic! And so well done. Michael Palin rocked in it.
15 posted on 09/24/2001 8:48:58 PM PDT by RightOnTheLeftCoast
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To: Constitution Day
Truer words have never been spoken.

BTW, you're using coconuts.

16 posted on 09/24/2001 8:54:02 PM PDT by seams2me
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To: TheWriter, blam
The lady of the Lake part of the legend is Druidic. Watery sites were considered sacred, as in wishing wells.
17 posted on 09/24/2001 9:15:44 PM PDT by rightofrush
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To: seams2me
Cannot the tiny ant, building his home from the hard earth, carry sixty times his own weight?
18 posted on 09/24/2001 9:30:14 PM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: rightofrush
"The lady of the Lake part of the legend is Druidic. Watery sites were considered sacred, as in wishing wells."

I happen to believe something catastrophic happened in the mid-500's AD, a date many believe was the period of King Arthur. The tree rings, worldwide, indicate a serious temporary climate change at exactly that period. I think a comet or comet fragment plunged into the Celtic Sea in 540AD. All these legends have grown out of an effort to explain that event. Swords, snakes, dragons and angels have always been associated with comets in myths. All tree ring events dating back to 3000BC have an acid layer (volcanoes) in the ice cores, the 540AD event does not have an acid layer. (comet?) This catastrophy (serious cooling) probably plunged Europe into the Dark Ages.

19 posted on 09/24/2001 9:47:07 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Interesting, blam, I had not read that before anywhere. Are there any sources you can give me to read more about it?
20 posted on 09/24/2001 10:00:15 PM PDT by SurferDoc
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To: SurferDoc
Yes, try these:

Exodus to Arthur, Mike Baillie

Catastrophe, David Keyes

There's another by Clube & Napier but I can't remember the title. All were published within the last couple of years. All good reading.

21 posted on 09/24/2001 10:22:12 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Catastrophe, David Keyes ... As I recall, wasn't the event a meteor that hit around the Indonesian area? Or was that the one heard by the Chinese in 1000?
22 posted on 09/24/2001 10:31:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: blam
I know a little about the Arthurian legend. My wife knows a great deal about it. There are differing dates and differing interpretations of the legend. But, I have a twist...I've been told that there were many in Britain during the WWII that believed that Winston Churchill was King Arthur reincarnated. This is based on the part of the legend that said that in Britain's darkest hour, King Arthur would return to lead and defend her. This is a standing part of the legend. At Britain's darkest hour, King Arthus will return and defend her. Maybe the same could be said for George Washington, Maybe Dubya is George Washington reincarnated. LOL
23 posted on 09/24/2001 10:45:23 PM PDT by PrivacyChampion
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To: MHGinTN
"..wasn't the event a meteor that hit around the Indonesian area? Or was that the one heard by the Chinese in 1000?"

Sorry, I read so much that I can't keep them all straight.

24 posted on 09/24/2001 11:06:33 PM PDT by blam
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To: PrivacyChampion
Now you have me wondering what the legend will 'sound' like 2000 years from now. Hmmm
25 posted on 09/24/2001 11:12:48 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I have heard that between 900 AD and the 1700's-1800's Europe was in a mini ice age. It probably could have started as early as mid 500 AD. I didn't pay much attention to the exact starting date...I was more surprised by the ending date being so close to our times.

Krakatoa erupted some time in there too. The whole world supposedly had no sun for about 3 days and there was snow in the summers due to the particles blocking out the heat of the sun, making the average earth temperature much cooler for a while.

26 posted on 09/24/2001 11:14:48 PM PDT by chantal7
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To: chantal7
I think you have three different incidents/times involved. All those did happen though.
27 posted on 09/24/2001 11:27:18 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
shame on you, blam, posting this very interesting history among all this poppycock.
28 posted on 09/25/2001 1:17:57 AM PDT by XBob
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To: blam
yeah, Krakatoa happened in the 1700-1800's, I believe but that was also about the time that the mini ice age ended.
29 posted on 09/25/2001 11:21:31 AM PDT by chantal7
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To: chantal7
Krakatau

The renowned Krakatau volcano lies in the Sunda Strait between Java and Sumatra. Caldera collapse, perhaps in 416 AD, destroyed the ancestral Krakatau edifice, forming a 7-kilometer-wide caldera. Remnants of this volcano formed Verlaten and Lang Islands; subsequently Rakata, Danan and Perbuwatan volcanoes were formed, coalescing to create the pre-1883 Krakatau Island. Caldera collapse during the catastrophic 1883 eruption destroyed Danan and Perbuwatan volcanoes, and left only a remnant of Rakata volcano. The post-collapse cone of Anak Krakatau (Child of Krakatau), constructed within the 1883 caldera at a point between the former cones of Danan and Perbuwatan, has been the site of frequent eruptions since 1927.

The 1883 eruption caused what became to be known at the year without summer. It snowed in New England in July.

30 posted on 09/25/2001 1:14:36 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
. The tree rings, worldwide, indicate a serious temporary climate change at exactly that period. I think a comet or comet fragment plunged into the Celtic Sea in 540AD.

This could account for the "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" line that occurs in Celtic folk tales.

31 posted on 09/25/2001 1:15:10 PM PDT by rightofrush
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To: rightofrush
"This could account for the "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" line that occurs in Celtic folk tales"

Damn, I like that. I really, really like that. Most people are unaware of how many things in our language/culture have ancient origins. When in Rome, do as the Romans.

32 posted on 09/25/2001 1:33:44 PM PDT by blam
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To: SurferDoc
There are lots of books and lots of scholarly disagreememt, but the best I have seen is "The Holy Grail" by Malcom Godwin. It has excerpts fom all of the major grail writers.

Another is "The Holy Grail" by Norma Lorre Goodrich. It has lots of good stuff including a chapter on Don Quixote who had a grail encounter.

We need a grail discussion site.

33 posted on 09/25/2001 1:38:08 PM PDT by bert
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To: blam
Thank you for your kind #32.
One a similar vein, I've found the Picts enigmatic as well as facinating. I've read that the reason for the blue paint was that they considered themselves "sky people". I guess that they were a Celtic people, as they did not war with the Scots that came from Ireland and settled in Argyll.<p.Do you know of any references?
34 posted on 09/25/2001 3:55:06 PM PDT by rightofrush
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To: Constitution Day
the swallow may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our shores.....
35 posted on 09/25/2001 7:08:08 PM PDT by seams2me
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
yes, thanks :)) that's the one I remember reading about, the 1883 one.

I am bad about reading everything I can get my hands on..only remembering the concept or idea but not the details. I had a teacher once tell me that the ideas and concepts were what one should keep in their head, the details were in the book to look up. I haven't really felt very well so I didn't go to look up the exact date. :)) Thanks!! :))

37 posted on 10/01/2001 8:09:38 PM PDT by chantal7
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To: blam
What's the phrase I am looking for...?

Oh yeah...

"GET A LIFE!

Yeah, that's the one.
38 posted on 10/01/2001 8:19:03 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: VaBthang4
Screw you, dumb s#it!
39 posted on 10/01/2001 8:27:01 PM PDT by blam
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A Blast from the Past -- 2001.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

40 posted on 03/05/2007 9:49:25 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, February 19, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: blam
Wow, blam, In several years of being on here I've never heard you speak that way. There IS a real person in there...
I thought you were just the really really smart guy that never flinches and never gets angry.
41 posted on 03/06/2007 5:34:40 PM PST by DavemeisterP (It's never too late to be what you might have been....George Elliot)
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To: DavemeisterP

That was six years ago when I was young and spontaneous, lol.


42 posted on 03/06/2007 6:05:57 PM PST by blam
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To: blam

Blam! Holy smoke!!! Laughing.

Now I've gotta read the entire thread to see what prompted this.


43 posted on 03/06/2007 6:25:48 PM PST by LucyT
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To: Watery Tart

This long-dormant thread has your name all over it.


44 posted on 03/06/2007 6:29:17 PM PST by dighton
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To: VaBthang4

Normal people scroll past threads if they aren't interested, instead of showing up and berating people who might have an interest in the subject matter.


45 posted on 03/06/2007 6:35:54 PM PST by LucyT
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To: Xenalyte

Something tells me this is your kinda thing.


46 posted on 03/06/2007 8:19:19 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: parsifal
Soon after Arthur died and his body was taken to the Isle of Avalon where, according to legend, he waits until England needs him again.



So if he is supposed to return one would think it might be during an invasion by a diabolically evil and barbaric enemy who follow a twisted ideology bent on world domination.

Is he hiring?
47 posted on 03/06/2007 8:22:46 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: blam
Archangel Michael was a comet?

Is this him?


48 posted on 03/06/2007 8:41:31 PM PST by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: LucyT

"Normal" people probably are not interested in this nonsense.


49 posted on 03/07/2007 6:33:35 AM PST by VaBthang4 ("He Who Watches Over Israel Will Neither Slumber Nor Sleep")
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To: VaBthang4
Normal people wouldn't be interested in history, science, religion, or anything else but flipping the TV remote to Oprah and Jerry Springer, right? Maybe screaming at the screen when their favorite football team does something stupid, again. How about spending $125 on ebay for a jacket with Dale Earnheart, Sr.'s likeness on the back? Or, watching Jerry Springer for the intellectual input from others with the same problems we all have? Doing those things makes one normal?

You're right, no one's normal at all that reads any of these threads. Definitely not me, I'm insane. Just ask anyone.

Go away, ----- WANNABE NERD ------
50 posted on 03/10/2007 4:12:09 AM PST by DavemeisterP (It's never too late to be what you might have been....George Elliot)
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