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The Roots of Muslim Rage
The Atlantic Monthly ^ | September, 1990 | Bernard Lewis

Posted on 09/26/2001 2:39:27 PM PDT by Torie

The Roots of Muslim Rage
Why so many Muslims deeply resent the West, and why their bitterness will not easily be mollified

by Bernard Lewis

IN one of his letters Thomas Jefferson remarked that in matters of religion "the maxim of civil government" should be reversed and we should rather say, "Divided we stand, united, we fall." In this remark Jefferson was setting forth with classic terseness an idea that has come to be regarded as essentially American: the separation of Church and State. This idea was not entirely new; it had some precedents in the writings of Spinoza, Locke, and the philosophers of the European Enlightenment. It was in the United States, however, that the principle was first given the force of law and gradually, in the course of two centuries, became a reality.

If the idea that religion and politics should be separated is relatively new, dating back a mere three hundred years, the idea that they are distinct dates back almost to the beginnings of Christianity. Christians are enjoined in their Scriptures to "render ... unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's." While opinions have differed as to the real meaning of this phrase, it has generally been interpreted as legitimizing a situation in which two institutions exist side by side, each with its own laws and chain of authority -- one concerned with religion, called the Church, the other concerned with politics, called the State. And since they are two, they may be joined or separated, subordinate or independent, and conflicts may arise between them over questions of demarcation and jurisdiction. This formulation of the problems posed by the relations between religion and politics, and the possible solutions to those problems, arise from Christian, not universal, principles and experience. There are other religious traditions in which religion and politics are differently perceived, and in which, therefore, the problems and the possible solutions are radically different from those we know in the West. Most of these traditions, despite their often very high level of sophistication and achievement, remained or became local -- limited to one region or one culture or one people. There is one, however, that in its worldwide distribution, its continuing vitality, its universalist aspirations, can be compared to Christianity, and that is Islam.

Islam is one of the world's great religions. Let me be explicit about what I, as a historian of Islam who is not a Muslim, mean by that. Islam has brought comfort and peace of mind to countless millions of men and women. It has given dignity and meaning to drab and impoverished lives. It has taught people of different races to live in brotherhood and people of different creeds to live side by side in reasonable tolerance. It inspired a great civilization in which others besides Muslims lived creative and useful lives and which, by its achievement, enriched the whole world. But Islam, like other religions, has also known periods when it inspired in some of its followers a mood of hatred and violence. It is our misfortune that part, though by no means all or even most, of the Muslim world is now going through such a period, and that much, though again not all, of that hatred is directed against us.

We should not exaggerate the dimensions of the problem. The Muslim world is far from unanimous in its rejection of the West, nor have the Muslim regions of the Third World been the most passionate and the most extreme in their hostility. There are still significant numbers, in some quarters perhaps a majority, of Muslims with whom we share certain basic cultural and moral, social and political, beliefs and aspirations; there is still an imposing Western presence -- cultural, economic, diplomatic -- in Muslim lands, some of which are Western allies. Certainly nowhere in the Muslim world, in the Middle East or elsewhere, has American policy suffered disasters or encountered problems comparable to those in Southeast Asia or Central America. There is no Cuba, no Vietnam, in the Muslim world, and no place where American forces are involved as combatants or even as "advisers." But there is a Libya, an Iran, and a Lebanon, and a surge of hatred that distresses, alarms, and above all baffles Americans.

At times this hatred goes beyond hostility to specific interests or actions or policies or even countries and becomes a rejection of Western civilization as such, not only what it does but what it is, and the principles and values that it practices and professes. These are indeed seen as innately evil, and those who promote or accept them as the "enemies of God."

This phrase, which recurs so frequently in the language of the Iranian leadership, in both their judicial proceedings and their political pronouncements, must seem very strange to the modern outsider, whether religious or secular. The idea that God has enemies, and needs human help in order to identify and dispose of them, is a little difficult to assimilate. It is not, however, all that alien. The concept of the enemies of God is familiar in preclassical and classical antiquity, and in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Koran. A particularly relevant version of the idea occurs in the dualist religions of ancient Iran, whose cosmogony assumed not one but two supreme powers. The Zoroastrian devil, unlike the Christian or Muslim or Jewish devil, is not one of God's creatures performing some of God's more mysterious tasks but an independent power, a supreme force of evil engaged in a cosmic struggle against God. This belief influenced a number of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish sects, through Manichaeism and other routes. The almost forgotten religion of the Manichees has given its name to the perception of problems as a stark and simple conflict between matching forces of pure good and pure evil.

The Koran is of course strictly monotheistic, and recognizes one God, one universal power only. There is a struggle in human hearts between good and evil, between God's commandments and the tempter, but this is seen as a struggle ordained by God, with its outcome preordained by God, serving as a test of mankind, and not, as in some of the old dualist religions, a struggle in which mankind has a crucial part to play in bringing about the victory of good over evil. Despite this monotheism, Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, was at various stages influenced, especially in Iran, by the dualist idea of a cosmic clash of good and evil, light and darkness, order and chaos, truth and falsehood, God and the Adversary, variously known as devil, Iblis, Satan, and by other names.

The Rise of the House of Unbelief

IN Islam the struggle of good and evil very soon acquired political and even military dimensions. Muhammad, it will be recalled, was not only a prophet and a teacher, like the founders of other religions; he was also the head of a polity and of a community, a ruler and a soldier. Hence his struggle involved a state and its armed forces. If the fighters in the war for Islam, the holy war "in the path of God," are fighting for God, it follows that their opponents are fighting against God. And since God is in principle the sovereign, the supreme head of the Islamic state -- and the Prophet and, after the Prophet, the caliphs are his vicegerents -- then God as sovereign commands the army. The army is God's army and the enemy is God's enemy. The duty of God's soldiers is to dispatch God's enemies as quickly as possible to the place where God will chastise them -- that is to say, the afterlife.

Clearly related to this is the basic division of mankind as perceived in Islam. Most, probably all, human societies have a way of distinguishing between themselves and others: insider and outsider, in-group and out-group, kinsman or neighbor and foreigner. These definitions not only define the outsider but also, and perhaps more particularly, help to define and illustrate our perception of ourselves.

In the classical Islamic view, to which many Muslims are beginning to return, the world and all mankind are divided into two: the House of Islam, where the Muslim law and faith prevail, and the rest, known as the House of Unbelief or the House of War, which it is the duty of Muslims ultimately to bring to Islam. But the greater part of the world is still outside Islam, and even inside the Islamic lands, according to the view of the Muslim radicals, the faith of Islam has been undermined and the law of Islam has been abrogated. The obligation of holy war therefore begins at home and continues abroad, against the same infidel enemy.

Like every other civilization known to human history, the Muslim world in its heyday saw itself as the center of truth and enlightenment, surrounded by infidel barbarians whom it would in due course enlighten and civilize. But between the different groups of barbarians there was a crucial difference. The barbarians to the east and the south were polytheists and idolaters, offering no serious threat and no competition at all to Islam. In the north and west, in contrast, Muslims from an early date recognized a genuine rival -- a competing world religion, a distinctive civilization inspired by that religion, and an empire that, though much smaller than theirs, was no less ambitious in its claims and aspirations. This was the entity known to itself and others as Christendom, a term that was long almost identical with Europe.

The struggle between these rival systems has now lasted for some fourteen centuries. It began with the advent of Islam, in the seventh century, and has continued virtually to the present day. It has consisted of a long series of attacks and counterattacks, jihads and crusades, conquests and reconquests. For the first thousand years Islam was advancing, Christendom in retreat and under threat. The new faith conquered the old Christian lands of the Levant and North Africa, and invaded Europe, ruling for a while in Sicily, Spain, Portugal, and even parts of France. The attempt by the Crusaders to recover the lost lands of Christendom in the east was held and thrown back, and even the Muslims' loss of southwestern Europe to the Reconquista was amply compensated by the Islamic advance into southeastern Europe, which twice reached as far as Vienna. For the past three hundred years, since the failure of the second Turkish siege of Vienna in 1683 and the rise of the European colonial empires in Asia and Africa, Islam has been on the defensive, and the Christian and post-Christian civilization of Europe and her daughters has brought the whole world, including Islam, within its orbit.

FOR a long time now there has been a rising tide of rebellion against this Western paramountcy, and a desire to reassert Muslim values and restore Muslim greatness. The Muslim has suffered successive stages of defeat. The first was his loss of domination in the world, to the advancing power of Russia and the West. The second was the undermining of his authority in his own country, through an invasion of foreign ideas and laws and ways of life and sometimes even foreign rulers or settlers, and the enfranchisement of native non-Muslim elements. The third -- the last straw -- was the challenge to his mastery in his own house, from emancipated women and rebellious children. It was too much to endure, and the outbreak of rage against these alien, infidel, and incomprehensible forces that had subverted his dominance, disrupted his society, and finally violated the sanctuary of his home was inevitable. It was also natural that this rage should be directed primarily against the millennial enemy and should draw its strength from ancient beliefs and loyalties.

Europe and her daughters? The phrase may seem odd to Americans, whose national myths, since the beginning of their nationhood and even earlier, have usually defined their very identity in opposition to Europe, as something new and radically different from the old European ways. This is not, however, the way that others have seen it; not often in Europe, and hardly ever elsewhere.

Though people of other races and cultures participated, for the most part involuntarily, in the discovery and creation of the Americas, this was, and in the eyes of the rest of the world long remained, a European enterprise, in which Europeans predominated and dominated and to which Europeans gave their languages, their religions, and much of their way of life.

For a very long time voluntary immigration to America was almost exclusively European. There were indeed some who came from the Muslim lands in the Middle East and North Africa, but few were Muslims; most were members of the Christian and to a lesser extent the Jewish minorities in those countries. Their departure for America, and their subsequent presence in America, must have strengthened rather than lessened the European image of America in Muslim eyes.

In the lands of Islam remarkably little was known about America. At first the voyages of discovery aroused some interest; the only surviving copy of Columbus's own map of America is a Turkish translation and adaptation, still preserved in the Topkapi Palace Museum, in Istanbul. A sixteenth-century Turkish geographer's account of the discovery of the New World, titled The History of Western India, was one of the first books printed in Turkey. But thereafter interest seems to have waned, and not much is said about America in Turkish, Arabic, or other Muslim languages until a relatively late date. A Moroccan ambassador who was in Spain at the time wrote what must surely be the first Arabic account of the American Revolution. The Sultan of Morocco signed a treaty of peace and friendship with the United States in 1787, and thereafter the new republic had a number of dealings, some friendly, some hostile, most commercial, with other Muslim states. These seem to have had little impact on either side. The American Revolution and the American republic to which it gave birth long remained unnoticed and unknown. Even the small but growing American presence in Muslim lands in the nineteenth century -- merchants, consuls, missionaries, and teachers -- aroused little or no curiosity, and is almost unmentioned in the Muslim literature and newspapers of the time.

The Second World War, the oil industry, and postwar developments brought many Americans to the Islamic lands; increasing numbers of Muslims also came to America, first as students, then as teachers or businessmen or other visitors, and eventually as immigrants. Cinema and later television brought the American way of life, or at any rate a certain version of it, before countless millions to whom the very name of America had previously been meaningless or unknown. A wide range of American products, particularly in the immediate postwar years, when European competition was virtually eliminated and Japanese competition had not yet arisen, reached into the remotest markets of the Muslim world, winning new customers and, perhaps more important, creating new tastes and ambitions. For some, America represented freedom and justice and opportunity. For many more, it represented wealth and power and success, at a time when these qualities were not regarded as sins or crimes.

And then came the great change, when the leaders of a widespread and widening religious revival sought out and identified their enemies as the enemies of God, and gave them "a local habitation and a name" in the Western Hemisphere. Suddenly, or so it seemed, America had become the archenemy, the incarnation of evil, the diabolic opponent of all that is good, and specifically, for Muslims, of Islam. Why?

Some Familiar Accusations

Among the components in the mood of anti-Westernism, and more especially of anti-Americanism, were certain intellectual influences coming from Europe. One of these was from Germany, where a negative view of America formed part of a school of thought by no means limited to the Nazis but including writers as diverse as Rainer Maria Rilke, Ernst Junger, and Martin Heidegger. In this perception, America was the ultimate example of civilization without culture: rich and comfortable, materially advanced but soulless and artificial; assembled or at best constructed, not grown; mechanical, not organic; technologically complex but lacking the spirituality and vitality of the rooted, human, national cultures of the Germans and other "authentic" peoples. German philosophy, and particularly the philosophy of education, enjoyed a considerable vogue among Arab and some other Muslim intellectuals in the thirties and early forties, and this philosophic anti-Americanism was part of the message.

After the collapse of the Third Reich and the temporary ending of German influence, another philosophy, even more anti-American, took its place -- the Soviet version of Marxism, with a denunciation of Western capitalism and of America as its most advanced and dangerous embodiment. And when Soviet influence began to fade, there was yet another to take its place, or at least to supplement its working -- the new mystique of Third Worldism, emanating from Western Europe, particularly France, and later also from the United States, and drawing at times on both these earlier philosophies. This mystique was helped by the universal human tendency to invent a golden age in the past, and the specifically European propensity to locate it elsewhere. A new variant of the old golden-age myth placed it in the Third World, where the innocence of the non-Western Adam and Eve was ruined by the Western serpent. This view took as axiomatic the goodness and purity of the East and the wickedness of the West, expanding in an exponential curve of evil from Western Europe to the United States. These ideas, too, fell on fertile ground, and won widespread support.

But though these imported philosophies helped to provide intellectual expression for anti-Westernism and anti-Americanism, they did not cause it, and certainly they do not explain the widespread anti-Westernism that made so many in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Islamic world receptive to such ideas.

It must surely be clear that what won support for such totally diverse doctrines was not Nazi race theory, which can have had little appeal for Arabs, or Soviet atheistic communism, which can have had little appeal for Muslims, but rather their common anti-Westernism. Nazism and communism were the main forces opposed to the West, both as a way of life and as a power in the world, and as such they could count on at least the sympathy if not the support of those who saw in the West their principal enemy.

But why the hostility in the first place? If we turn from the general to the specific, there is no lack of individual policies and actions, pursued and taken by individual Western governments, that have aroused the passionate anger of Middle Eastern and other Islamic peoples. Yet all too often, when these policies are abandoned and the problems resolved, there is only a local and temporary alleviation. The French have left Algeria, the British have left Egypt, the Western oil companies have left their oil wells, the westernizing Shah has left Iran -- yet the generalized resentment of the fundamentalists and other extremists against the West and its friends remains and grows and is not appeased.

The cause most frequently adduced for anti-American feeling among Muslims today is American support for Israel. This support is certainly a factor of importance, increasing with nearness and involvement. But here again there are some oddities, difficult to explain in terms of a single, simple cause. In the early days of the foundation of Israel, while the United States maintained a certain distance, the Soviet Union granted immediate de jure recognition and support, and arms sent from a Soviet satellite, Czechoslovakia, saved the infant state of Israel from defeat and death in its first weeks of life. Yet there seems to have been no great ill will toward the Soviets for these policies, and no corresponding good will toward the United States. In 1956 it was the United States that intervened, forcefully and decisively, to secure the withdrawal of Israeli, British, and French forces from Egypt -- yet in the late fifties and sixties it was to the Soviets, not America, that the rulers of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and other states turned for arms; it was with the Soviet bloc that they formed bonds of solidarity at the United Nations and in the world generally. More recently, the rulers of the Islamic Republic of Iran have offered the most principled and uncompromising denunciation of Israel and Zionism. Yet even these leaders, before as well as after the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, when they decided for reasons of their own to enter into a dialogue of sorts, found it easier to talk to Jerusalem than to Washington. At the same time, Western hostages in Lebanon, many of them devoted to Arab causes and some of them converts to Islam, are seen and treated by their captors as limbs of the Great Satan.

Another explanation, more often heard from Muslim dissidents, attributes anti-American feeling to American support for hated regimes, seen as reactionary by radicals, as impious by conservatives, as corrupt and tyrannical by both. This accusation has some plausibility, and could help to explain why an essentially inner-directed, often anti-nationalist movement should turn against a foreign power. But it does not suffice, especially since support for such regimes has been limited both in extent and -- as the Shah discovered -- in effectiveness.

Clearly, something deeper is involved than these specific grievances, numerous and important as they may be -- something deeper that turns every disagreement into a problem and makes every problem insoluble.
THIS revulsion against America, more generally against the West, is by no means limited to the Muslim world; nor have Muslims, with the exception of the Iranian mullahs and their disciples elsewhere, experienced and exhibited the more virulent forms of this feeling. The mood of disillusionment and hostility has affected many other parts of the world, and has even reached some elements in the United States. It is from these last, speaking for themselves and claiming to speak for the oppressed peoples of the Third World, that the most widely publicized explanations -- and justifications -- of this rejection of Western civilization and its values have of late been heard.

The accusations are familiar. We of the West are accused of sexism, racism, and imperialism, institutionalized in patriarchy and slavery, tyranny and exploitation. To these charges, and to others as heinous, we have no option but to plead guilty -- not as Americans, nor yet as Westerners, but simply as human beings, as members of the human race. In none of these sins are we the only sinners, and in some of them we are very far from being the worst. The treatment of women in the Western world, and more generally in Christendom, has always been unequal and often oppressive, but even at its worst it was rather better than the rule of polygamy and concubinage that has otherwise been the almost universal lot of womankind on this planet.

Is racism, then, the main grievance? Certainly the word figures prominently in publicity addressed to Western, Eastern European, and some Third World audiences. It figures less prominently in what is written and published for home consumption, and has become a generalized and meaningless term of abuse -- rather like "fascism," which is nowadays imputed to opponents even by spokesmen for one-party, nationalist dictatorships of various complexions and shirt colors.

Slavery is today universally denounced as an offense against humanity, but within living memory it has been practiced and even defended as a necessary institution, established and regulated by divine law. The peculiarity of the peculiar institution, as Americans once called it, lay not in its existence but in its abolition. Westerners were the first to break the consensus of acceptance and to outlaw slavery, first at home, then in the other territories they controlled, and finally wherever in the world they were able to exercise power or influence -- in a word, by means of imperialism.

Is imperialism, then, the grievance? Some Western powers, and in a sense Western civilization as a whole, have certainly been guilty of imperialism, but are we really to believe that in the expansion of Western Europe there was a quality of moral delinquency lacking in such earlier, relatively innocent expansions as those of the Arabs or the Mongols or the Ottomans, or in more recent expansions such as that which brought the rulers of Muscovy to the Baltic, the Black Sea, the Caspian, the Hindu Kush, and the Pacific Ocean? In having practiced sexism, racism, and imperialism, the West was merely following the common practice of mankind through the millennia of recorded history. Where it is distinct from all other civilizations is in having recognized, named, and tried, not entirely without success, to remedy these historic diseases. And that is surely a matter for congratulation, not condemnation. We do not hold Western medical science in general, or Dr. Parkinson and Dr. Alzheimer in particular, responsible for the diseases they diagnosed and to which they gave their names.

Of all these offenses the one that is most widely, frequently, and vehemently denounced is undoubtedly imperialism -- sometimes just Western, sometimes Eastern (that is, Soviet) and Western alike. But the way this term is used in the literature of Islamic fundamentalists often suggests that it may not carry quite the same meaning for them as for its Western critics. In many of these writings the term "imperialist" is given a distinctly religious significance, being used in association, and sometimes interchangeably, with "missionary," and denoting a form of attack that includes the Crusades as well as the modern colonial empires. One also sometimes gets the impression that the offense of imperialism is not -- as for Western critics -- the domination by one people over another but rather the allocation of roles in this relationship. What is truly evil and unacceptable is the domination of infidels over true believers. For true believers to rule misbelievers is proper and natural, since this provides for the maintenance of the holy law, and gives the misbelievers both the opportunity and the incentive to embrace the true faith. But for misbelievers to rule over true believers is blasphemous and unnatural, since it leads to the corruption of religion and morality in society, and to the flouting or even the abrogation of God's law. This may help us to understand the current troubles in such diverse places as Ethiopian Eritrea, Indian Kashmir, Chinese Sinkiang, and Yugoslav Kossovo, in all of which Muslim populations are ruled by non-Muslim governments. It may also explain why spokesmen for the new Muslim minorities in Western Europe demand for Islam a degree of legal protection which those countries no longer give to Christianity and have never given to Judaism. Nor, of course, did the governments of the countries of origin of these Muslim spokesmen ever accord such protection to religions other than their own. In their perception, there is no contradiction in these attitudes. The true faith, based on God's final revelation, must be protected from insult and abuse; other faiths, being either false or incomplete, have no right to any such protection.

THERE are other difficulties in the way of accepting imperialism as an explanation of Muslim hostility, even if we define imperialism narrowly and specifically, as the invasion and domination of Muslim countries by non-Muslims. If the hostility is directed against imperialism in that sense, why has it been so much stronger against Western Europe, which has relinquished all its Muslim possessions and dependencies, than against Russia, which still rules, with no light hand, over many millions of reluctant Muslim subjects and over ancient Muslim cities and countries? And why should it include the United States, which, apart from a brief interlude in the Muslim-minority area of the Philippines, has never ruled any Muslim population? The last surviving European empire with Muslim subjects, that of the Soviet Union, far from being the target of criticism and attack, has been almost exempt. Even the most recent repressions of Muslim revolts in the southern and central Asian republics of the USSR incurred no more than relatively mild words of expostulation, coupled with a disclaimer of any desire to interfere in what are quaintly called the "internal affairs" of the USSR and a request for the preservation of order and tranquillity on the frontier.

One reason for this somewhat surprising restraint is to be found in the nature of events in Soviet Azerbaijan. Islam is obviously an important and potentially a growing element in the Azerbaijani sense of identity, but it is not at present a dominant element, and the Azerbaijani movement has more in common with the liberal patriotism of Europe than with Islamic fundamentalism. Such a movement would not arouse the sympathy of the rulers of the Islamic Republic. It might even alarm them, since a genuinely democratic national state run by the people of Soviet Azerbaijan would exercise a powerful attraction on their kinsmen immediately to the south, in Iranian Azerbaijan.

Another reason for this relative lack of concern for the 50 million or more Muslims under Soviet rule may be a calculation of risk and advantage. The Soviet Union is near, along the northern frontiers of Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan; America and even Western Europe are far away. More to the point, it has not hitherto been the practice of the Soviets to quell disturbances with water cannon and rubber bullets, with TV cameras in attendance, or to release arrested persons on bail and allow them access to domestic and foreign media. The Soviets do not interview their harshest critics on prime time, or tempt them with teaching, lecturing, and writing engagements. On the contrary, their ways of indicating displeasure with criticism can often be quite disagreeable.

But fear of reprisals, though no doubt important, is not the only or perhaps even the principal reason for the relatively minor place assigned to the Soviet Union, as compared with the West, in the demonology of fundamentalism. After all, the great social and intellectual and economic changes that have transformed most of the Islamic world, and given rise to such commonly denounced Western evils as consumerism and secularism, emerged from the West, not from the Soviet Union. No one could accuse the Soviets of consumerism; their materialism is philosophic -- to be precise, dialectical -- and has little or nothing to do in practice with providing the good things of life. Such provision represents another kind of materialism, often designated by its opponents as crass. It is associated with the capitalist West and not with the communist East, which has practiced, or at least imposed on its subjects, a degree of austerity that would impress a Sufi saint.

Nor were the Soviets, until very recently, vulnerable to charges of secularism, the other great fundamentalist accusation against the West. Though atheist, they were not godless, and had in fact created an elaborate state apparatus to impose the worship of their gods -- an apparatus with its own orthodoxy, a hierarchy to define and enforce it, and an armed inquisition to detect and extirpate heresy. The separation of religion from the state does not mean the establishment of irreligion by the state, still less the forcible imposition of an anti-religious philosophy. Soviet secularism, like Soviet consumerism, holds no temptation for the Muslim masses, and is losing what appeal it had for Muslim intellectuals. More than ever before it is Western capitalism and democracy that provide an authentic and attractive alternative to traditional ways of thought and life. Fundamentalist leaders are not mistaken in seeing in Western civilization the greatest challenge to the way of life that they wish to retain or restore for their people.

A Clash of Civilizations

THE origins of secularism in the west may be found in two circumstances -- in early Christian teachings and, still more, experience, which created two institutions, Church and State; and in later Christian conflicts, which drove the two apart. Muslims, too, had their religious disagreements, but there was nothing remotely approaching the ferocity of the Christian struggles between Protestants and Catholics, which devastated Christian Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries and finally drove Christians in desperation to evolve a doctrine of the separation of religion from the state. Only by depriving religious institutions of coercive power, it seemed, could Christendom restrain the murderous intolerance and persecution that Christians had visited on followers of other religions and, most of all, on those who professed other forms of their own.

Muslims experienced no such need and evolved no such doctrine. There was no need for secularism in Islam, and even its pluralism was very different from that of the pagan Roman Empire, so vividly described by Edward Gibbon when he remarked that "the various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." Islam was never prepared, either in theory or in practice, to accord full equality to those who held other beliefs and practiced other forms of worship. It did, however, accord to the holders of partial truth a degree of practical as well as theoretical tolerance rarely paralleled in the Christian world until the West adopted a measure of secularism in the late-seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

At first the Muslim response to Western civilization was one of admiration and emulation -- an immense respect for the achievements of the West, and a desire to imitate and adopt them. This desire arose from a keen and growing awareness of the weakness, poverty, and backwardness of the Islamic world as compared with the advancing West. The disparity first became apparent on the battlefield but soon spread to other areas of human activity. Muslim writers observed and described the wealth and power of the West, its science and technology, its manufactures, and its forms of government. For a time the secret of Western success was seen to lie in two achievements: economic advancement and especially industry; political institutions and especially freedom. Several generations of reformers and modernizers tried to adapt these and introduce them to their own countries, in the hope that they would thereby be able to achieve equality with the West and perhaps restore their lost superiority.

In our own time this mood of admiration and emulation has, among many Muslims, given way to one of hostility and rejection. In part this mood is surely due to a feeling of humiliation -- a growing awareness, among the heirs of an old, proud, and long dominant civilization, of having been overtaken, overborne, and overwhelmed by those whom they regarded as their inferiors. In part this mood is due to events in the Western world itself. One factor of major importance was certainly the impact of two great suicidal wars, in which Western civilization tore itself apart, bringing untold destruction to its own and other peoples, and in which the belligerents conducted an immense propaganda effort, in the Islamic world and elsewhere, to discredit and undermine each other. The message they brought found many listeners, who were all the more ready to respond in that their own experience of Western ways was not happy. The introduction of Western commercial, financial, and industrial methods did indeed bring great wealth, but it accrued to transplanted Westerners and members of Westernized minorities, and to only a few among the mainstream Muslim population. In time these few became more numerous, but they remained isolated from the masses, differing from them even in their dress and style of life. Inevitably they were seen as agents of and collaborators with what was once again regarded as a hostile world. Even the political institutions that had come from the West were discredited, being judged not by their Western originals but by their local imitations, installed by enthusiastic Muslim reformers. These, operating in a situation beyond their control, using imported and inappropriate methods that they did not fully understand, were unable to cope with the rapidly developing crises and were one by one overthrown. For vast numbers of Middle Easterners, Western-style economic methods brought poverty, Western-style political institutions brought tyranny, even Western-style warfare brought defeat. It is hardly surprising that so many were willing to listen to voices telling them that the old Islamic ways were best and that their only salvation was to throw aside the pagan innovations of the reformers and return to the True Path that God had prescribed for his people.

ULTIMATELY, the struggle of the fundamentalists is against two enemies, secularism and modernism. The war against secularism is conscious and explicit, and there is by now a whole literature denouncing secularism as an evil neo-pagan force in the modern world and attributing it variously to the Jews, the West, and the United States. The war against modernity is for the most part neither conscious nor explicit, and is directed against the whole process of change that has taken place in the Islamic world in the past century or more and has transformed the political, economic, social, and even cultural structures of Muslim countries. Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and a form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood.

There is something in the religious culture of Islam which inspired, in even the humblest peasant or peddler, a dignity and a courtesy toward others never exceeded and rarely equalled in other civilizations. And yet, in moments of upheaval and disruption, when the deeper passions are stirred, this dignity and courtesy toward others can give way to an explosive mixture of rage and hatred which impels even the government of an ancient and civilized country -- even the spokesman of a great spiritual and ethical religion -- to espouse kidnapping and assassination, and try to find, in the life of their Prophet, approval and indeed precedent for such actions.

The instinct of the masses is not false in locating the ultimate source of these cataclysmic changes in the West and in attributing the disruption of their old way of life to the impact of Western domination, Western influence, or Western precept and example. And since the United States is the legitimate heir of European civilization and the recognized and unchallenged leader of the West, the United States has inherited the resulting grievances and become the focus for the pent-up hate and anger. Two examples may suffice. In November of 1979 an angry mob attacked and burned the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan. The stated cause of the crowd's anger was the seizure of the Great Mosque in Mecca by a group of Muslim dissidents -- an event in which there was no American involvement whatsoever. Almost ten years later, in February of 1989, again in Islamabad, the USIS center was attacked by angry crowds, this time to protest the publication of Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses. Rushdie is a British citizen of Indian birth, and his book had been published five months previously in England. But what provoked the mob's anger, and also the Ayatollah Khomeini's subsequent pronouncement of a death sentence on the author, was the publication of the book in the United States.

It should by now be clear that we are facing a mood and a movement far transcending the level of issues and policies and the governments that pursue them. This is no less than a clash of civilizations -- the perhaps irrational but surely historic reaction of an ancient rival against our Judeo-Christian heritage, our secular present, and the worldwide expansion of both. It is crucially important that we on our side should not be provoked into an equally historic but also equally irrational reaction against that rival.

Not all the ideas imported from the West by Western intruders or native Westernizers have been rejected. Some have been accepted by even the most radical Islamic fundamentalists, usually without acknowledgment of source, and suffering a sea change into something rarely rich but often strange. One such was political freedom, with the associated notions and practices of representation, election, and constitutional government. Even the Islamic Republic of Iran has a written constitution and an elected assembly, as well as a kind of episcopate, for none of which is there any prescription in Islamic teaching or any precedent in the Islamic past. All these institutions are clearly adapted from Western models. Muslim states have also retained many of the cultural and social customs of the West and the symbols that express them, such as the form and style of male (and to a much lesser extent female) clothing, notably in the military. The use of Western-invented guns and tanks and planes is a military necessity, but the continued use of fitted tunics and peaked caps is a cultural choice. From constitutions to Coca-Cola, from tanks and television to T-shirts, the symbols and artifacts, and through them the ideas, of the West have retained -- even strengthened -- their appeal.

THE movement nowadays called fundamentalism is not the only Islamic tradition. There are others, more tolerant, more open, that helped to inspire the great achievements of Islamic civilization in the past, and we may hope that these other traditions will in time prevail. But before this issue is decided there will be a hard struggle, in which we of the West can do little or nothing. Even the attempt might do harm, for these are issues that Muslims must decide among themselves. And in the meantime we must take great care on all sides to avoid the danger of a new era of religious wars, arising from the exacerbation of differences and the revival of ancient prejudices.

To this end we must strive to achieve a better appreciation of other religious and political cultures, through the study of their history, their literature, and their achievements. At the same time, we may hope that they will try to achieve a better understanding of ours, and especially that they will understand and respect, even if they do not choose to adopt for themselves, our Western perception of the proper relationship between religion and politics. To describe this perception I shall end as I began, with a quotation from an American President, this time not the justly celebrated Thomas Jefferson but the somewhat unjustly neglected John Tyler, who, in a letter dated July 10, 1843, gave eloquent and indeed prophetic expression to the principle of religious freedom:

The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of Church and State. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his Maker after his own judgement. The offices of the Government are open alike to all. No tithes are levied to support an established Hierarchy, nor is the fallible judgement of man set up as the sure and infallible creed of faith. The Mahommedan, if he will to come among us would have the privilege guaranteed to him by the constitution to worship according to the Koran; and the East Indian might erect a shrine to Brahma if it so pleased him. Such is the spirit of toleration inculcated by our political Institutions.... The Hebrew persecuted and down trodden in other regions takes up his abode among us with none to make him afraid.... and the Aegis of the Government is over him to defend and protect him. Such is the great experiment which we have tried, and such are the happy fruits which have resulted from it; our system of free government would be imperfect without it.

The body may be oppressed and manacled and yet survive; but if the mind of man be fettered, its energies and faculties perish, and what remains is of the earth, earthly. Mind should be free as the light or as the air.

For Educational and Discussion Purposes Only; Not for Commercial Use


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS:
Andrew Sullivan at his site (Andrewsullivan.com) recommended reading this article. So I did, and thought it worthwhile enough to bring to FR.
1 posted on 09/26/2001 2:39:28 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Torie
After a thousand years of having languished under the Romans, The Holy Roman, the Ottoman and finally, British empires, someone (the Jews) finally built a dynamic society in "Palestine".

One might expect modern palestinians to be most teed-off at their leaders, not one of whom it seems, ever had a similar vision for the region, and who instead now rail at the world in perpetual victimhood about their "stolen" birthright, and who would as obviously destroy it, supposedly for its acheivement, without ever a mere thought as to how to ever build anything.

Witness all that Bin Laden might have done with all his riches for "his people", but to lead them into darkness.

2 posted on 09/26/2001 3:01:52 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Torie
Everyone is trying to explain Muslim rage at the West, and the US. Few, if any, recognize that these Muslims live in totalitarian nations with strictly controlled education, news, and political speech. The question is not why Muslims are mad at us, but rather why the governments of these nations have portrayed us to their subjects in such a way as to make them mad at us.
3 posted on 09/26/2001 3:11:39 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: TheDon
Well said, Don. Also important to note are the lives of Americans lost in the last 4 'clashes' which involved our saving Muslim lives. If this is how we are repaid, f' em all.
4 posted on 09/26/2001 3:14:05 PM PDT by mgc1122
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To: Torie
Summary: They prefer to live in the dark ages, and hate and envy those who don't. Not good.
5 posted on 09/26/2001 3:14:16 PM PDT by A Navy Vet
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To: Torie
The separation of Church and state is only important when the church/state uses religion to justify war and offers religious rewards for dying in war. Religions who wage war nearly always offer an instant trip to heaven for those that die for the religious state. Religions that offer little on earth, must offer a lot in heaven. Otherwise the followers fall away. Few benefits now much later, is a hard sell if the people are allowed to think. There is a reason Muslims must pray 5 times a day.

Secondly those that have a better life must be described as servants of Satan, or the believers will leave the religion for the better life. War fever is requred to keep the faithful, faithful.

Wars are always about power and expansion of power. Religions whose people are not doing well, must make those that are doing well out to be evil. Otherwise their God is less powerful than the better offs God. They must attempt to bring the successful powers down or the bleak life afforded the followers of their God will be seen as a failure of their God. If they fail to destroy the more sucessful people, the religion eventually loses all or most all of its power. If they succeed their power will be much greater, for it will be used as proof their God gave them victory. Their followers will be reassured.

When people are willing to die for a cause, you must destroy the cause, or be distroyed by the cause.

Religious wars end when a Goliath slays a David with a single blow.It creates a shortage of Davids.


6 posted on 09/26/2001 3:14:49 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Common Tator
Re: post #6

Great comment!

7 posted on 09/26/2001 3:17:48 PM PDT by neutrino (Neutrino)
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To: Common Tator
"My invisible friend in the sky is better than than your invisible friend in the sky"

Book of Invisible Wisdom

8 posted on 09/26/2001 3:25:48 PM PDT by norraad (belief is the enemy)
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To: Common Tator
You have made a point, but actually some of the Muslim countries are quite rich, and still quite fundamentalist. And Hinduism exhibited no such belligerence, and it resided in one of the poorest and most miserable places on the planet until recently for a very long time.
9 posted on 09/26/2001 3:30:38 PM PDT by Torie
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To: AGaviator,patent,lent,rebdov,Samaritan,TwoDees,MHGinTNbttt
bttt
10 posted on 09/26/2001 3:31:07 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Torie
I wonder who is going to prevail? It sounds like there is no hope for a rational solution. It's us or them.
11 posted on 09/26/2001 3:32:23 PM PDT by stubernx98
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To: TheDon
The question is not why Muslims are mad at us, but rather why the governments of these nations have portrayed us to their subjects in such a way as to make them mad at us.

Governments are overthrown all the time. Governments do not make People. People make governments. They adopt them and throw them away at will. Most governments are less than 60 years old.

Arafat, Fayd, and even the Eqyptian leadership would like to restrain the Muslim hate. King Fayd of Saudi Arabia is afraid the militant Muslims will over throw his government. Most Saudi Arabian citizens support the terrorists. They are bright educated and rich. They also hate us and would like to destory our culture. Palistinians watch CNN more than you do. They hate us. We do not have a leader problem. If we killed all the leaders they would just get new leaders. We have a 200 million follower problem.

When Russia no longer wanted a Czar they overthrew him. When Russia no longer wanted the Soviet Union, they overthrew that government too. In 1933 when Germans no longer wanted a Republic they overthrew it and brought in Hitler and his Natzis. We overthew British rule when it was the most powerful nation on earth. Nations keep leaders becuase they want them. Not the other way arould.

Nations always get the governments they want. You must get it through your head that some nations do not want freedom. Many people do not want freedom. The educated Germans of the 1930's wanted Hitler more than they wanted freedom.

We don't have a leader problem.. We have a follower problem.

If all we do is kill the leaders the followers will just get new leaders.

12 posted on 09/26/2001 3:32:27 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: JeepInMazar,Kaj,FITZ,ankaboot,gonzo,serge,jesda,Publius6961
bttt
13 posted on 09/26/2001 3:32:28 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: sadimgnik,harpseal,Boris,luvzhottea,jimkress,2sheep,semaj
bttt
14 posted on 09/26/2001 3:33:51 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Torie
To this end we must strive to achieve a better appreciation of other religious and political cultures, through the study of their history, their literature, and their achievements.

Somehow, I knew it would come down to this.

15 posted on 09/26/2001 3:33:54 PM PDT by untenured
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bump
16 posted on 09/26/2001 3:34:32 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: onedoug
It is going to be very bright very soon!
17 posted on 09/26/2001 3:35:01 PM PDT by surfer
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Torie
Do I give a liberal damn? Nope! I don't care WHAT excuse anyone comes up with, terrorism is like smallpox and must be eradicated in the same way. If one's god was worth a plugged nickel, said god would give one guidance regarding how to handle one's hate in a non-destructive manner, NOT tell one to go out and kill anyone with whom one doesn't agree. DUH!
19 posted on 09/26/2001 3:39:28 PM PDT by mil-vet
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: Torie
Outstanding article. Thank you for posting it.

Have you read Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations?" I'm starting it tonight, having just ordered it from BarnesandNoble.com.

21 posted on 09/26/2001 3:42:21 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: Torie
in both cases you must seperate realities: both religions have a 'caste' type of system, both basically creating 2nd and 3rd tier citizens by the nature of their government and their religion. there is no middle class of any proportion in the totalitarian islamic regimes, which perpetuates a need for a false, albeit (?) comforting effect derived from *religion*.
22 posted on 09/26/2001 3:42:33 PM PDT by Anonymous2
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To: cicero's_son
I have read extracts and book reviews of Huntington's book. My impression is that Huntington overstates his case, but that does not mean that the book is not worthwhile.
23 posted on 09/26/2001 3:46:08 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Torie
For true believers to rule misbelievers is proper and natural, since this provides for the maintenance of the holy law, and gives the misbelievers both the opportunity and the incentive to embrace the true faith. But for misbelievers to rule over true believers is blasphemous and unnatural, since it leads to the corruption of religion and morality in society, and to the flouting or even the abrogation of God's law.

There you have it. If you wish to have a faith other than Islam, then you must subjugate yourself to the Islamics, convert all the Islamics to some other faith, kill them, or die. Their rules, not ours.

24 posted on 09/26/2001 3:46:09 PM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: Torie
Hmmm. My understanding is that he himself admits that he overstates his case for emphasis, it being rather hard to construct a theory of international relations out of gelatin.

In any case, I'm looking forward to reading it. I may post some of it when I'm finished.

25 posted on 09/26/2001 3:48:32 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: Torie
I think the article is NOT worthwhile for the facts are not straight. In Islam evil can be counted as good. When one reads the bible, one knows all ready that Satan has often appeared to men as an "angel of light". And when the "angel" came to muhammed, muhammed believed the angel was from God, even though he had no proof. There is absolutley no proof that the angel was from God. The allah of the Quran does not have the same attributes of Jehovah or Yaweh of the bible. The allah of the Quran is not loving and caring, he is most cruel and calls his followers "slaves" and he demands obedience under penalty of death, and he dares anyone to speak against him. It is okay with allah to force his commands on people and control them. The God of the bible calls his followers his children, and he wants only the willing. They are not the same! Islam claims to believe in Moses, Jesus and others, but Muhammed did not even follow the 10 commandments. So this tells me that allah of the Quran and the God of the bible, who wrote his law on tablets of stone with his own hand, are just not the same. All good things come from God, and the evil comes from Satan, the destroyer.
26 posted on 09/26/2001 3:51:33 PM PDT by tessalu
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To: Samaritan
#18: So?
27 posted on 09/26/2001 4:03:16 PM PDT by onedoug
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Torie
Muslim countries are quite rich, and still quite fundamentalist

My point, very poorly made, is the in many cases religion is about power and the domination of peoples. It is not all that much about saving souls. I focused on how religious governments leverage religious power in poor nations. Religions at the start must gain converts. At first they are mostly about saving the world and all the people in it. Later many become Us against Them in focus. Many times the theology changes from convert the infidel to destroy the infidel. That is often based on falure to convert the infidel. Apologists point to the first stage beliefs as if they were the current beliefs. That is a very dangerous thing to do.

It is much easier in some respects in a rich nation that has a history of poverty. The Rich arabs have only been rich since the Automobile became a factor. God has blessed us and we must destory the infidel. God will be angry and take our wealth from us if we fail to kill the infidel. That is often the pitch in the rich nations. It works on fear. Fear is a good motivator. Always has been.

Militant religions and nations are always about gaining and retaining power. I have always marveled how a Hitler could convince Germany that Jews were the source of all their problems. Germany at the time was the most educated nation on earth. Yet their people bought it.

I think it is because they were ready to believe it. They wanted someone to blame. Hitler gave them some one to blame. There was a 1000 year history of anti semitism in Europe and England. Read Shakespeare's "As You Like It" for proof. If Germans could beleive that Jews were the source of all evil, we should not be surprised at what others believe about us.

It is true however. Leaders look where the crowd is going, then get out in front to lead them. Hitler honed his pitch to what worked. So does Osama bin Laden.

It comes back to my theory that people always get the governments they want.

Bin Laden did not create this horse. He is just one of its current riders.

When people are willing to die for a cause, you have to kill the cause or the cause will kill you.

29 posted on 09/26/2001 4:16:58 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Torie
It's an interesting article but I kind of think they are just like the Nazis, their leaders have convinced them that Jews are the cause of all their problems and that Jews need to die. An in our case they've decided there are too many Jews in the US and they think Jews control the US and that the US is too interested in saving the Jews from the fate they want to give them in the Middle East. Bin Laden is really nothing but a reincarnated Hitler motivated by hate and genocide.
30 posted on 09/26/2001 4:37:59 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Torie
Bump
31 posted on 09/26/2001 4:54:37 PM PDT by vrwc54
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To: Samaritan
Again though, what's he ever done for any other muslim with all his billions(?), except to rail in hate and perpetuate terror as a perpetual victim?

I'd be surprised if he practices Al-Zakat, or any other tenet of the faith.

32 posted on 09/26/2001 5:24:26 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Common Tator
Governments are overthrown all the time. Governments do not make People. People make governments. They adopt them and throw them away at will. Most governments are less than 60 years old.

Yes, governments, whose power base becomes insufficient to maintain it, are overthrown. And people do not overthrow them at will, remember the Eastern Block countries during the Cold War.

In the Middle East, the regimes are all totalitarian governments of one form or another. The governing regimes have the military and police apparatus to keep the people under control. Anyone who wants to try and overthrow the government get their head chopped off, or a bullet to the back of the head, or a tank rolled over them like the Chinese. He11, the South didn't exactly succeed in overthrowing the North in our country.

Arafat, Fayd, and even the Eqyptian leadership would like to restrain the Muslim hate. King Fayd of Saudi Arabia is afraid the militant Muslims will over throw his government.

After fomenting anti-Western/American hatred among their subjects for so long, they have found it is getting out of their control in many instances. Also, their grip on power is slipping. Those they rely on to sustain their power are getting sucked into the propaganda they fostered for so long, thereby diminishing the power of their governments.

Palistinians watch CNN more than you do.

I doubt you have any knowledge of their CNN viewship numbers. They get what the PA transmits to them over the state controlled TV.

They hate us. We do not have a leader problem. If we killed all the leaders they would just get new leaders. We have a 200 million follower problem.

They hate us in the same way the Japanese did in WWII. They have been given plenty of propaganda, remember, these are not free and open societies. We must take care of the leaders and the followers, the leaders must stop the propaganda, and the followers must be exposed to the truth.

Nations always get the governments they want.

Utter nonsense. Tell that to the Eastern block countries during the Cold War. He11, tell that to the countries making up the former Soviet Union.

You must get it through your head that some nations do not want freedom. Many people do not want freedom.

More nonsense. They may support a new government because they hate the old and think the new government will give them a better life, but in this they may be quite disappointed. Those who support repressive regimes are either part of the power structure, hope to be, or are to afraid to do otherwise.

The educated Germans of the 1930's wanted Hitler more than they wanted freedom.

More nonsense. They weren't thinking they were trading freedom for Hitler.

We don't have a leader problem.. We have a follower problem. If all we do is kill the leaders the followers will just get new leaders.

Actually, we have a leader and a follower problem. The leaders have been propagandizing the followers with lies, this must stop. The terrorist threat is a direct result of this propaganda. It will take time for the followers to get a hold of the truth and begin to look on the West and the US correctly. It can be done, look at the Japanese. They were propagandized just as badly, yet they overcame it.

It is important to get the correct framework to understand the full dimensions of this conflict, see the link below. Also, I have bookmarked some related articles on my personal page.

Operation Infinite Justice: The Big Picture

33 posted on 09/26/2001 6:05:46 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: Common Tator
There was a 1000 year history of anti semitism in Europe and England. Read Shakespeare's "As You Like It" for proof.

Uhhh... wasn't that The Merchant of Venice ?

In any case, that was a pretty good article. The point about the Soviet Union/Russia having a major Muslim problem that they attempt to repress harshly, without incurring the kind of fanatical rage that America does, is a good one. He might have further described how Algeria is fighting a fanatical, ruthlessly bloodthirsty Islamic fundamentalist insurrection that has absolutely nothing to do with Israel or the USA.

34 posted on 09/26/2001 6:57:22 PM PDT by TheMole
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To: TheDon
Approximately 1000 Muslims were slaughtered in the WTC terror attack. The history of Islam is sprinkled with periods of murder in the name of Allah, murder of less zealous Muslims, and the Koran and hadiths promote this approach to amintaining the 'faith'.

When a people are compelled to follow a totalitarian leadership, the first generation is filled with hate and fear, the second generation is fearful but hopeful, the third generation is obedient and complaint.

9/11 is a prime example of mass murder that is glossed over with a patina of respectability by appealing to religious ambiquities to be found generously throughout the Koran. If the fanatics'war is to end without millions of deaths (regardless of whom those deaths are attributed to since bin Laden would be more than please to sacrifice millions of Muslims in order to reshape the world in the image he serves--satanic subjugation0 ... if the war is too end, it is the Muslim world of sanity now so timid to assert itself that must do so, else we will end this war for them regardless of the collateral damage; our homes are already under seige, we'll take our terrible destructive power to their homes as the fanatics escalate this terror, and the sooner the timid Muslims realize this the sooner they may arise to stand against the madness they now support in weak complicity.

Perhaps some 'marshall plan' to establish reasonable government in these now terrorist supporting states will come, but unless the Muslim world rejects these fanatics, these terrorists, these mass murderers, we will annihilate them to get rid of the terrorist bases of money, property, and proselytes ... the young of these terrorist supporting states are the product of the parents' raising, not bin Laden's parenting, make no mistake on that for we will, if needs be, kill thousands of these misled kids to end terrosim as it is now spreading. We are at war with totalitarian fanatics, not Muslims of honor. we must annihilate them and allow the moderate, co-existence oriented Muslims assume control.

Finally, ask yourself this to get a feel for the message: when will the drug culture cease to exploit the hood? ... When the indiividuals in the hood expel and reject the drug culture promoters. Is that an economic question? The liberals would like to have us believe so, but it is cultural in origin, not economic. When will fanatics cease to exploit the Mulism world that wants to co-exist and live in peace? ... It's really not hard to see the answer to that, but we will have to give the effort a push with an horrific, overwhelming power response, then back away and set up for the next targets. Let's hope the Muslim world gets the picture clearly, because I pray we do not stop if they do not for our very existence is riding in the balance if we stop before the wrok is done. I would much rather see the Muslim world do the majority of the work against the fanatical satan servants, but if it doesn't, we must do it or die.

35 posted on 09/26/2001 6:58:16 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: stubernx98
" I wonder who is going to prevail? It sounds like there is no hope for a rational solution. It's us or them."

Very good question. They have the will to win but not the means. We have the means but not the will. Whichever one of us gets both first, will win.
36 posted on 09/26/2001 7:46:39 PM PDT by Michael2001
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To: FITZ
" It's an interesting article but I kind of think they are just like the Nazis, their leaders have convinced them that Jews are the cause of all their problems and that Jews need to die."

It's not just the Jews. They don't like us much either. Just they have a saying "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people" so for now they are focusing primarily on the Saturday people (Jews). When they are done they will come for us, or we will stop them before they defeat the Saturday people.
37 posted on 09/26/2001 7:51:59 PM PDT by Michael2001
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To: Torie
"The Roots of Muslim Rage"? Meaningless. Emotions do not follow religious boudaries. Go group-think elsewhere.

To all you Jihadists and their apologists: Feel whatever you want, you murderous slime. I could care less. Feelings are fleeting, transitory, and temporary. Your kind acted on their feelings... Your brethren made them permanent, burned into concrete and memories with jet fuel and blood... You helped murder 6000 of my countrymen. You don't the courtesy of explaining your rationale. You simply, quickly, and angrily get hit back now.

You want rage? We'll show you rage.

We're coming.

38 posted on 09/26/2001 8:06:06 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: Michael2001
It's not just the Jews. They don't like us much either.

They hate everybody. That's one reason I don't think we have to worry too much about any non-Muslims joining their side. Even China might be our enemy but they probably prefer us over Islamic world domination, especially when they break their Buddhas and would be big problem for the Communists. Hindus get killed by Muslims. African Christians are killed by Muslims.

39 posted on 09/26/2001 8:46:17 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: TheDon
Islamic cultures have succeeded in taking their nations and peoples from greatness to marginality on their way to nothingness. It has little to do with western civilization and much to do with their lack of anything much. Get realistic. Most of the places where Islam now reigns were significant players in the world before Islam took root, and count for nothing much in the aftermath. Islam may be a nice religion, but the culture it has spawned is a loser in every case that can be named.
40 posted on 09/26/2001 9:12:46 PM PDT by mathurine
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To: Common Tator

The question is not why Muslims are mad at us, but rather why the governments of these nations have portrayed us to their subjects in such a way as to make them mad at us.

Governments are overthrown all the time. Governments do not make People. People make governments. They adopt them and throw them away at will. Most governments are less than 60 years old.

Arafat, Fayd, and even the Eqyptian leadership would like to restrain the Muslim hate. King Fayd of Saudi Arabia is afraid the militant Muslims will over throw his government. Most Saudi Arabian citizens support the terrorists. They are bright educated and rich. They also hate us and would like to destory our culture. Palistinians watch CNN more than you do. They hate us. We do not have a leader problem. If we killed all the leaders they would just get new leaders. We have a 200 million follower problem.

When Russia no longer wanted a Czar they overthrew him. When Russia no longer wanted the Soviet Union, they overthrew that government too. In 1933 when Germans no longer wanted a Republic they overthrew it and brought in Hitler and his Natzis. We overthew British rule when it was the most powerful nation on earth. Nations keep leaders becuase they want them. Not the other way arould.

Nations always get the governments they want. You must get it through your head that some nations do not want freedom. Many people do not want freedom. The educated Germans of the 1930's wanted Hitler more than they wanted freedom.

We don't have a leader problem.. We have a follower problem.

If all we do is kill the leaders the followers will just get new leaders.

 

Most intelligent and well written post I have seen around here in about a year.

Only thing I would change is that people do not necessarily get the government they want, but they get the one they deserve.

 

41 posted on 09/26/2001 9:41:41 PM PDT by Col Sanders
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To: Travis McGee
I will say it again. We are in World War III and we do not yet realize it or its implications. What the events of September 11, 2001 have given us is a choice of possible strategies most if not all of which lead to a war of the entire Muslim world against the West. If we do nothing or delay too long it will recruit more Muslims to the cause. If we strike back hard it will recruit more Muslims to the cause.

Something in the middle seems the way to go but there are no guarantees. Any strike will cause a reaction. The longer it is delayed even by mecessary logistical planning and support the more "outragous" the Muslim street will see it.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

42 posted on 09/27/2001 6:37:47 AM PDT by harpseal
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To: harpseal,gonzo
The key players are the long term operators who come and go in the west, the businessmen, clerics, and NGO leaders who are secret intelligence officers and messangers and couriors.

These guys need to start getting the quiet .22LR hello whereever and whenever we find them. No arrest, no trial, this is WAR.

Without these key players, the angry jihadists are muscles without a brain, and will be rolled up and interned, deported or killed over time.

43 posted on 09/27/2001 8:20:38 AM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
I agree on these key players needing to get that hello in the medula oblongata but this seems to be where the Terrorist cell security seems to be the best. The muscle cells seem to have not been as concerned but I do not think that the hard core are that way and given the possible numbers I don't think they will have too many problems recruiting more muscle.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

44 posted on 09/27/2001 8:46:07 AM PDT by harpseal
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To: Travis McGee
These guys need to start getting the quiet .22LR hello whereever and whenever we find them. No arrest, no trial, this is WAR.

I think Bush and his team adopted the term 'war' early on because they anticipated the need to issue an EO authorizing just the kind of wet operations you suggest. I hope we soon see bodies turning up in some of the tonier office buildings throughout the Muslim world.

45 posted on 09/27/2001 12:52:20 PM PDT by beckett
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To: Common Tator
You keep on using a blanket universal statement in your clearly limited understanding of "religions". The subject "religions" encompases many varied things, most of which do not fall into your neat and erroneous scourge-of-the-earth pidgeonhole.

"Opiate of the people", perhaps? I think I see your color ... once again.

Liberalism must be crushed!
46 posted on 09/28/2001 9:58:55 PM PDT by Thorondir
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To: Torie
Bump
47 posted on 06/10/2002 1:54:04 PM PDT by mel
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To: AdmSmith; Arthur Wildfire! March; Berosus; bigheadfred; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; Delacon; ...

Note: this topic is from September 26, 2001. Earlier that month the world learned the roots of US rage. Thanks Torie.


48 posted on 12/20/2010 8:09:11 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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