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Biblical question...
Enquiring Mind | 10/06/2001 | MississippiMan

Posted on 10/06/2001 2:42:47 PM PDT by MississippiMan

Quick question: I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture? I know there's a verse that does such but can't seem to find it at the moment.

Thanks...

MM


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1 posted on 10/06/2001 2:42:47 PM PDT by MississippiMan
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To: MississippiMan; 2sheep; babylonian; etc
>>>Quick question: I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture? I know there's a verse that does such but can't seem to find it at the moment.<<<

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

2 posted on 10/06/2001 2:48:51 PM PDT by Thinkin' Gal
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To: MississippiMan
I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture?

1 Corinthians 15:51-55

3 posted on 10/06/2001 2:53:10 PM PDT by mdittmar
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To: MississippiMan
That's because there ain't no such a thing.
4 posted on 10/06/2001 2:54:57 PM PDT by don-o
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To: Thinkin' Gal
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Sorry, gal. You lost me on that one. Put your point in plain English for me please.

MM

5 posted on 10/06/2001 2:56:38 PM PDT by MississippiMan
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To: Thinkin' Gal
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Let me get this straight...

If I can get two or one more witness, then every word is established?

If I get one more witness that God has spoken to me, then it is "established?" What is up with that?

6 posted on 10/06/2001 2:58:35 PM PDT by don-o
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To: mdittmar
1 Corinthians 15:51-55

Thanks, Mditt. That's a relevant passage but not the one I'm looking for. I've read a passage that talks about the tribulation and then says something along the lines of "you shall be spared," in reference to those saved.

MM

7 posted on 10/06/2001 2:59:53 PM PDT by MississippiMan
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To: MississippiMan
Rev 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

8 posted on 10/06/2001 3:14:39 PM PDT by Mark was here
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To: MississippiMan
You won't find a pre-trib reapture in the bible.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

These verses are usually quoted as biblical proof of a pre-trib rapture. Believers ARE caught up and changed, but notice WHEN it happens. At the LAST trumpet. This refers to the book of Revealations.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever.

Just before this, the two witnesses were resurrected and went up with God. In the Left Behind books, this event occurs about halfway through the 7 year tribulation period.

9 posted on 10/06/2001 3:14:56 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Mrs Mark
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

John is specifically talking to the church in Philadephia in this verse.

10 posted on 10/06/2001 3:17:02 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Mrs Mark
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Thanks much, Mrs. Mark. That's the one I was looking for. :)

Thanks to all who responded.

MM

11 posted on 10/06/2001 3:17:56 PM PDT by MississippiMan
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To: MississippiMan
Hmmm,

Revelation 7:14-17?

12 posted on 10/06/2001 3:18:04 PM PDT by mdittmar
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To: DouglasKC
I do not believe in the rapture, just trying to help....
13 posted on 10/06/2001 3:19:04 PM PDT by Mark was here
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To: MississippiMan
Don't forget to use that verse in "context". While you're doing that you might think about who could be represented by the church of Philadelphia (and who might not be represented).
14 posted on 10/06/2001 3:31:35 PM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: Proverbs2
Don't forget to use that verse in "context". While you're doing that you might think about who could be represented by the church of Philadelphia (and who might not be represented).

What is your explanation of context?

Thanks...

MM

15 posted on 10/06/2001 3:33:19 PM PDT by MississippiMan
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To: MississippiMan
There are three different judgements in the book of Revelation: The Seal Judgements, the Trumpet Judgements, and the Bowl Judgements. Paul, in I Corinthians 15:51 speaks of the "mystery" which I believe is the "Rapture" of the Church. In vs. 52, Paul mentions the sound of the trumpet.

In I Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul again speaks of the "Rapture" of the church. In vs 16, He again mentions the trumpet.

Now go to Revelation 10:7..."But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his "trumpet", the mysteryof God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

Some versions read, "the mystery of God is finished". Nonetheless, something definitively is "accomplished" or "finished" at the sounding of the last judgement in the "Trumpet Judgements".

Just something to ponder.

16 posted on 10/06/2001 3:38:22 PM PDT by One4Indictment
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To: MississippiMan
Uh oh, here's what you get when you read more than one verse:

Mark 13:19-27
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

17 posted on 10/06/2001 3:38:39 PM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: MississippiMan
A single verse as "proof" is difficult. It is much more clear when you take the many verses with reference together. Here are a couple which may help:

The most clear that I have found:

Revalations Chapter 3:Verse 10

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And another:

1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verses 13-14

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

18 posted on 10/06/2001 3:41:37 PM PDT by TheBattman
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To: MississippiMan
Oh, and one more thing. In Revelation 10:7 where in speaks of the mystery of God being "accomplished" or "finished", doesn't mean that's the end of everything. The Bowl Judgements still remain.

Now Revelation doesn't state definitively when the Tribulation actually begins, but if you read through the Seal and Trumpet Judgements, there is definately some tribulation in those Judgements. Therefore, I tend to hold more toward a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

19 posted on 10/06/2001 3:44:18 PM PDT by One4Indictment
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To: MississippiMan
Ha ha ha. Good luck.

There is no such verse. If one starts with the premise beforehand, a number of verses can be twisted to fit the premise, but there is no "starting point" biblically. There is no evidence of an invisible rapture, either. There are no disappearing Christians anywhere in the Bible, in spite of all the novels that describe the event in presumptuous detail. Again, once the premise is accepted, it can be argued that the Bible doesn't say it's not invisible, but that's an argument based on lack of evidence. The Bible doesn't say we won't ride elephants to heaven, either, but that's hardly a reason to count on a ride on dumbo.

I've challenged the pre-tribs here countless times to come up with such a verse, and all I've gotten were insults, and comments like, "I'm not going to do your homework for you. Look it up yourself."

I'll be glad to provide several passages that indicate that the rapture will come AFTER the tribulation, but BEFORE the "Wrath of God".

20 posted on 10/06/2001 3:50:31 PM PDT by watchin
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To: MississippiMan
2 Thessalonians 2:6ff always clinched the pre-trib position for me. Someone is holding back Satan from revealing his man of sin-- and that someone has been holding him back for 2000 years. Thus, it almost certainly is the Holy Spirit.

So... which of the millenial positions can account for the removal of the Holy Spirit at the start of the Tribulation? Only one which has the church off the earth when the man of sin comes into power (or at least, significent enough power to be recognized as antichrist.) So, thats why I am unequivically pre-trib.

21 posted on 10/06/2001 3:51:21 PM PDT by jude24
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To: MississippiMan
There is not going to be a pre-trib rapture, WHICH MEANS YOU ARE GOING THROUGH THE TRIBULATION!
22 posted on 10/06/2001 3:54:51 PM PDT by babylonian
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To: MississippiMan
A single verse is difficult to make doctrine out of, there needs to be more. Here is one

Rev 3: 10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Here is another, but it can also mean a great departure from sound doctrine, and that describes today, for sure!

2Thes:2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The man of sin is the Anti-Christ, so this falling away, RAPTURO, must come first. When taken in context with other verses, it helps explain the doctrine of the rapture, those alive before the man of sin is revealed, being taken up.

Here is another 'hint':,p. 51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This twinkling of an eye, means an instantaneous change, not a person by person change, but all believers. To sleep means to die, and not all will die, but some will be changed, in an instant.

23 posted on 10/06/2001 3:57:14 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: mdittmar
You answered the "what" instead of the "when" question. We're looking for evidence that the rapture will be prior to the tribulation, not a description of the rapture. Try again, without assuming that any passage describing the rapture must therefore be PRE trib.
24 posted on 10/06/2001 3:57:27 PM PDT by watchin
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To: MississippiMan
"Jesus Wept."
25 posted on 10/06/2001 3:59:36 PM PDT by lds23
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To: MississippiMan
Quick question: I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture? I know there's a verse that does such but can't seem to find it at the moment.

Ha ha ha. There isn't a single solitary one. The entire doctrine is pieced together from a phrase here and there. There isn't a single place where such a doctrine is taught. Intellectually it's equivalent to the pages of a phone book being used to construct a papier mache object and then having the artist tell you that that object was inherently in the phone book. That's what it amounts to.
26 posted on 10/06/2001 4:04:45 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: mdittmar
1 Corinthians 15:51-55

Not pre-Trib.
27 posted on 10/06/2001 4:05:34 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: MississippiMan
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Tell me where there is anything in this verse that has anything to do with a rapture, pre-trib or otherwise, that isn't being read into the verse.
28 posted on 10/06/2001 4:07:51 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: MississippiMan
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
V 23
But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things
V 24
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
V 25
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
V 26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
V 27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

after that tribulation
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven

29 posted on 10/06/2001 4:07:52 PM PDT by Mark was here
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To: MississippiMan
#15

context:

Rev 3:7-10
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep(5083) thee from(1537) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

First of all, out of the seven churches, why does this apply to us? Why not this?:

Rev 3:14-19
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Second, look at the greek words translated "keep...from". Here they are (the same greek words) used in the same way in another place in the Bible:

John 17:14-18
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep(5083) them from(1537) the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

30 posted on 10/06/2001 4:09:37 PM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: MississippiMan
There is no such verse that supports a pre-trib rapture. First and foremost, I should note I'm a Christian. I've studied prophecy long enough to know that the new contemporary 'rapture dogma' about the end times is a fanciful speculation, taken as the gospel truth, because some many evangelical religious leaders believe in it.... It evolved from the teaching of the 19th century Irvingites who espoused a progressive social gospel. Darby adopted it and changed it bit, and it was popularized in the U.S.

Jesus' parable of the harvest in Matthew 13 actually refutes the notion of a pre-trib rapture... Not surprisingly, there are a number of denominations from Calvinists to Catholics opposed to such a doctrine, as 'pre-trib rapture.' There are a lot of people claiming to have fully interpreted the prophecies of Revelation... The Bible warned of 'false prophets and false teachers.' Take any speculation with a grain of salt. If you don't take what I say at face value than study the scriptures.

Left Behind Culturally
31 posted on 10/06/2001 4:11:16 PM PDT by paleolibertarian
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To: MississippiMan
Luke 21:28
32 posted on 10/06/2001 4:15:22 PM PDT by marbren
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To: paleolibertarian
I loved that movie ,"Left Behind".
33 posted on 10/06/2001 4:19:41 PM PDT by Mahonri Moriancumer
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To: Thinkin' Gal
"...two or three witnesses..."

With all due respect, these words, to be correctly understood must be understood within the given context. The context in this case (and most OT references to "two or three witnesses")is church discipline, regarding a brother who is in sin.

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." Mat 18:15,16

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Mat. 18:20

Although Jesus wouldn't be present in His flesh to discipline a sinning brother, two or three Spirit filled brethren would adequately be representing Him, as though Jesus was standing right there in the flesh, because His Spirit rested, in His power (Mat.28:18-20; Acts 1:8), upon their flesh. Regarding the rapture question, I might suggest a book by the same title by Woolvard..."THE RAPTURE QUESTION".

baa

34 posted on 10/06/2001 4:20:17 PM PDT by woollyone
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To: MississippiMan
Are you thinking of this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

35 posted on 10/06/2001 4:32:43 PM PDT by mombonn
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To: watchin
Man,you're tough.

How about this.

Matthew 24:45-47

36 posted on 10/06/2001 4:44:30 PM PDT by mdittmar
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To: mombonn MississipiMan
I Thess 5:2

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

37 posted on 10/06/2001 4:47:53 PM PDT by aposiopetic
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To: babylonian; all others
Gosh, I sure hate to disillusion all you guys. There isn't any such thing as a rapture. I know it is a popular myth and that is all it is. At the end of the age when Jesus comes again, "All" will be changed, because it is the end of the age and all of us will be changed into whatever form we take in the next Earth Age.

This rapture theory started in the early 1800's by a woman who was ill, delusional and having hallucinationsand was picked up by the pastors of the day to make a name for themselves and there began the rapture theory. It has NEVER been taught in the history of christianity until then. Check out your Bible and stop believing idiots!! Why would we want to escape the tribulation when it is the opportunity to stand before the Antichrist and witness for the Lord??????

38 posted on 10/06/2001 4:50:49 PM PDT by Clifdo
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To: paleolibertarian
Thank you, I enjoyed that.
39 posted on 10/06/2001 4:52:26 PM PDT by fourdny2
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To: TheBattman
I agree TheBattman:

Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church.

In 1 Thes. 4:13-18 we are given a clear description of the rapture, "the dead in Christ will rise, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord."

The timing of the rapture is not known. From the word of God and from sound reasoning, something Jesus used quite frequently, I believe in the "Blessed Hope"... the pretribulation rapture.

Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture

When we search the scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour. Mat. 25:13 say Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Rev. 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1260 days. The 1260 days start when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4).

This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year tribulation (Dan 9:27). It should be noted that some people only see a 3 1/2 year tribulation. They are in a way correct, because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half.

Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a 7 year time period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1260 days (Mat 24:16).

There is no way you can apply "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here; the rapture of the Church comes before the tribulation and the return of Jesus to the earth takes place roughly seven years later.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

In Luke 12:36 the Word states that when Christ returns He will be returning from a wedding. In Rev. 19:7-8 we read about the marriage itself. Before the marriage takes place, there is the marriage supper. According to Jewish custom the marriage contract is drawn up first, often including a dowry. This parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us.

When the time comes for the wedding to take place, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced, she comes out to meet him, and then the groom takes the bride to his father's house. This is an exact correlation of the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the groom, comes down from heaven, calls up the Church, and after meeting in the air, both He and the bride return to the His Father's house - heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place up in heaven, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation are playing themselves out. After the marriage supper takes place, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev 19:14)

MississippiMan:

It might help you if you read Matt thru John as Jesus dealing/talking with the Jewish folks.

Then read from Acts thru Jude as Jesus dealing/talking to the church

40 posted on 10/06/2001 4:53:06 PM PDT by Ready2go
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To: mdittmar
There is no such thing as pre-tribulation rapture. In Matt 24 Jesus tells the signs of the end, and I think you can believe him. I have thought of some of the current teachings, which are fairly recent, and I can only wonder if Satan would try to take away from the glory of Christ's second coming, which will be the greatest day that this world has ever seen, and it is the day, that time as we know it ends. False Christ's will come, but none will be able to imitate Jesus coming in the clouds with his angels. What a Day that will be, and Jesus is our hope.
41 posted on 10/06/2001 4:54:07 PM PDT by tessalu
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To: MississippiMan
Maybe these will help:

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Revelation 6:9-11
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10They called out in a loud voice, How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?
11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Revelation 7:13-14
13Then one of the elders asked me, These in white robes who are they, and where did they come from?
14I answered, Sir, you know. And he said, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


42 posted on 10/06/2001 5:08:34 PM PDT by watchin
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To: MississippiMan
In addition to the prior posts of verses implying a pre-Tribulation Rapture, consider that of the four Gospels, John was especially written to the Church and the Gentiles; therefore, he was a picture (or symbol) of the Church when the voice in Rev. 4:1 said to him "Come up here" BEFORE the description of the Tribulation started in the subsequent chapters of Revelation. Also, Enoch was another picture (or symbol) of the Rapture in Gen. 5:24.

In addition, the Tribulation Dispensation does NOT apply to the Church (Gentiles) because it is called the time of JACOB's Trouble Jer. 30:7 NOT the time of the Church's Trouble or the time of the believers' Trouble.

43 posted on 10/06/2001 5:12:59 PM PDT by E=MC<sup>2</sup>
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To: MississippiMan
I Thessalonians 4 and 5 describe the Rapture and the circumstances that surround it.

I Thess 4 describes the events that precede the Rapture ending with 15-18 which say: 15 . . . we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to mee the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (15 to 17 are the Rapture)

I Thess 5 tells us when: 1 But of the times and the seasons brethern, you have no need that I tell you--proceeding on through 8 about the events of the time and then in 9 telling us when the Rapture happens: "For God has not appointed us to Wrath."

The Rapture happens before "Wrath" starts.

Revelation 6:17 says "For the great day of his wrath is come . . . . " Wrath starts after the events of Revelation Chapter 6 and before Chapter 7 which is logicial since in 7:9 we see the Raptured Church in heaven ("out of the great tribulation"--7:14); and in 7:3-8; the Jewish remanent on Earth who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah who had the Rapture not occured before they do so, would be Raptured.

So where are we now: Revelation 6:6: Wheat three times the price of Barley; and the oil and wine hurt not. Wheat has been three times the price of Barley one time and one time only during the church age and that was in May 1996 when the 200% penalty tax on imported cooking oil and wine, adopted to leverage the Europeans to agree to GATT; suspended when they agreed to the terms of the treaty; was finally eliminated when the treaty had been signed, thus hurting not the oil and wine.

6:2 was Saddam; 6:4 was Desert Storm.

After 6:6: As I have told you many times, the quarter of the earth is the area occupied by the Moslem Jihad--74 degrees East Longitude to 16 degrees West Longitude; 90 degrees and exactly a quarter of the earth. The war is the Jihad War now starting; famine is widespread; death from AIDs is widespread; death from the beasts of the earth comes from ebola and Mad Cow which are transmitted by the flesh of the beasts of the earth.

All exactly and precisely as set out in his Holy Word. Praise God for the precision, accuracy and guidence he has given us in his Word to know where we are in time and can be watchful.

44 posted on 10/06/2001 5:21:57 PM PDT by David
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To: jude24
The only problem with your speculation about the Holy Spirit in 2 Thes. 6 is that it directly contradicts the first three verses of the same chapter.

Verses 1-3 tell us that the "coming of Christ, and our being gathered to him" will not happen until after the "man of sin is revealed". Your speculation on verse 6 results in the rapture before the man of sin is revealed. So the speculation that the "removal of the restrainer" signifies the rapture must be wrong.

Interestingly, if you do a simple lining up of the sequences of verses 1-3

                  apostasy,   man of sin,   rapture

and verses 6-8

restraint,   removal,   man of sin

lining up the only common term - "man of sin", you get another possibility -

restraint,   apostasy/removal,   man of sin,   rapture

- the "restrainer" may be the church, which is "taken out of the way" not by rapture, but by apostasy, a concept made all the more credible by the descriptions of the "last days" church:

1 Timothy 4:1
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

2 Timothy 3:1-5
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


45 posted on 10/06/2001 5:42:22 PM PDT by watchin
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To: RaceBannon
"The man of sin is the Anti-Christ, so this falling away RAPTURO ..."

Whoa there, big fella. You are strongly implying that the greek word for "falling away" is "rapturo". Wishful thinking, that. The word is "apostasia" - rightly translated "falling away", or apostasy.

46 posted on 10/06/2001 5:48:29 PM PDT by watchin
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To: TheBattman
I agree TheBattman:

Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church.

In 1 Thes. 4:13-18 we are given a clear description of the rapture, "the dead in Christ will rise, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord."

The timing of the rapture is not known. From the word of God and from sound reasoning, something Jesus used quite frequently, I believe in the "Blessed Hope"... the pretribulation rapture.

Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture

When we search the scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour. Mat. 25:13 say Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Rev. 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1260 days. The 1260 days start when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4).

This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year tribulation (Dan 9:27). It should be noted that some people only see a 3 1/2 year tribulation. They are in a way correct, because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half.

Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a 7 year time period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1260 days (Mat 24:16).

There is no way you can apply "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here; the rapture of the Church comes before the tribulation and the return of Jesus to the earth takes place roughly seven years later.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

In Luke 12:36 the Word states that when Christ returns He will be returning from a wedding. In Rev. 19:7-8 we read about the marriage itself. Before the marriage takes place, there is the marriage supper. According to Jewish custom the marriage contract is drawn up first, often including a dowry. This parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us.

When the time comes for the wedding to take place, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced, she comes out to meet him, and then the groom takes the bride to his father's house. This is an exact correlation of the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the groom, comes down from heaven, calls up the Church, and after meeting in the air, both He and the bride return to the His Father's house - heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place up in heaven, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation are playing themselves out. After the marriage supper takes place, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev 19:14)

MississippiMan:

It might help you MM...if you read Matt thru John as Jesus dealing/talking with the Jewish folks.

Then read from Acts thru Jude as Jesus dealing/talking to the church

And Revelation as God dealing with everything soon to be fulfilled to a unbelieving world.

47 posted on 10/06/2001 5:49:43 PM PDT by Ready2go
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To: MississippiMan
Perhaps you are thinking of the passage in IThess where Paul speaks of the trump sounding and the dead in Christ rising first, then we who are alive and remain being caught up to gether with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord?...

1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
NIV


48 posted on 10/06/2001 5:51:13 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: mdittmar
?? Does that passage have anything at all to do with the discussion at hand, other than to indicate that the Master will one day return? Either I missed your point, or you did it again, pointing out the "what" rather than the "when".
49 posted on 10/06/2001 5:54:05 PM PDT by watchin
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To: watchin
Your to good for me,God bless.
50 posted on 10/06/2001 5:56:20 PM PDT by mdittmar
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