Biblical question...

Enquiring Mind | 10/06/2001 | MississippiMan

[MississippiMan]

Quick question: I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture? I know there's a verse that does such but can't seem to find it at the moment.

Thanks...

MM

[Thinkin' Gal]

>>>Quick question: I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture? I know there's a verse that does such but can't seem to find it at the moment.<<<

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

[mdittmar]

I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture?

1 Corinthians 15:51-55

[don-o]

That's because there ain't no such a thing.

[MississippiMan]

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Sorry, gal. You lost me on that one. Put your point in plain English for me please.

MM

[don-o]

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Let me get this straight...

If I can get two or one more witness, then every word is established?

If I get one more witness that God has spoken to me, then it is "established?" What is up with that?

[MississippiMan]

1 Corinthians 15:51-55

Thanks, Mditt. That's a relevant passage but not the one I'm looking for. I've read a passage that talks about the tribulation and then says something along the lines of "you shall be spared," in reference to those saved.

MM

[Mark was here]

Rev 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[DouglasKC]

You won't find a pre-trib reapture in the bible.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

These verses are usually quoted as biblical proof of a pre-trib rapture. Believers ARE caught up and changed, but notice WHEN it happens. At the LAST trumpet. This refers to the book of Revealations.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever.

Just before this, the two witnesses were resurrected and went up with God. In the Left Behind books, this event occurs about halfway through the 7 year tribulation period.

[DouglasKC]

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

John is specifically talking to the church in Philadephia in this verse.

[MississippiMan]

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Thanks much, Mrs. Mark. That's the one I was looking for. :)

Thanks to all who responded.

MM

[mdittmar]

Hmmm,

Revelation 7:14-17?

[Mark was here]

I do not believe in the rapture, just trying to help....

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

Don't forget to use that verse in "context". While you're doing that you might think about who could be represented by the church of Philadelphia (and who might not be represented).

[MississippiMan]

Don't forget to use that verse in "context". While you're doing that you might think about who could be represented by the church of Philadelphia (and who might not be represented).

What is your explanation of context?

Thanks...

MM

[One4Indictment]

There are three different judgements in the book of Revelation: The Seal Judgements, the Trumpet Judgements, and the Bowl Judgements. Paul, in I Corinthians 15:51 speaks of the "mystery" which I believe is the "Rapture" of the Church. In vs. 52, Paul mentions the sound of the trumpet.

In I Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul again speaks of the "Rapture" of the church. In vs 16, He again mentions the trumpet.

Now go to Revelation 10:7..."But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his "trumpet", the mysteryof God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

Some versions read, "the mystery of God is finished". Nonetheless, something definitively is "accomplished" or "finished" at the sounding of the last judgement in the "Trumpet Judgements".

Just something to ponder.

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

Uh oh, here's what you get when you read more than one verse:

Mark 13:19-27
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

[TheBattman]

A single verse as "proof" is difficult. It is much more clear when you take the many verses with reference together. Here are a couple which may help:

The most clear that I have found:

Revalations Chapter 3:Verse 10

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And another:

1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verses 13-14

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[One4Indictment]

Oh, and one more thing. In Revelation 10:7 where in speaks of the mystery of God being "accomplished" or "finished", doesn't mean that's the end of everything. The Bowl Judgements still remain.

Now Revelation doesn't state definitively when the Tribulation actually begins, but if you read through the Seal and Trumpet Judgements, there is definately some tribulation in those Judgements. Therefore, I tend to hold more toward a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

[watchin]

Ha ha ha. Good luck.

There is no such verse. If one starts with the premise beforehand, a number of verses can be twisted to fit the premise, but there is no "starting point" biblically. There is no evidence of an invisible rapture, either. There are no disappearing Christians anywhere in the Bible, in spite of all the novels that describe the event in presumptuous detail. Again, once the premise is accepted, it can be argued that the Bible doesn't say it's not invisible, but that's an argument based on lack of evidence. The Bible doesn't say we won't ride elephants to heaven, either, but that's hardly a reason to count on a ride on dumbo.

I've challenged the pre-tribs here countless times to come up with such a verse, and all I've gotten were insults, and comments like, "I'm not going to do your homework for you. Look it up yourself."

I'll be glad to provide several passages that indicate that the rapture will come AFTER the tribulation, but BEFORE the "Wrath of God".