Posted on 10/06/2001 2:42:47 PM PDT by MississippiMan
Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.Revelation 6:9-11
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10They called out in a loud voice, How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?
11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.Revelation 7:13-14
13Then one of the elders asked me, These in white robes who are they, and where did they come from?
14I answered, Sir, you know. And he said, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
In addition, the Tribulation Dispensation does NOT apply to the Church (Gentiles) because it is called the time of JACOB's Trouble Jer. 30:7 NOT the time of the Church's Trouble or the time of the believers' Trouble.
I Thess 4 describes the events that precede the Rapture ending with 15-18 which say: 15 . . . we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to mee the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (15 to 17 are the Rapture)
I Thess 5 tells us when: 1 But of the times and the seasons brethern, you have no need that I tell you--proceeding on through 8 about the events of the time and then in 9 telling us when the Rapture happens: "For God has not appointed us to Wrath."
The Rapture happens before "Wrath" starts.
Revelation 6:17 says "For the great day of his wrath is come . . . . " Wrath starts after the events of Revelation Chapter 6 and before Chapter 7 which is logicial since in 7:9 we see the Raptured Church in heaven ("out of the great tribulation"--7:14); and in 7:3-8; the Jewish remanent on Earth who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah who had the Rapture not occured before they do so, would be Raptured.
So where are we now: Revelation 6:6: Wheat three times the price of Barley; and the oil and wine hurt not. Wheat has been three times the price of Barley one time and one time only during the church age and that was in May 1996 when the 200% penalty tax on imported cooking oil and wine, adopted to leverage the Europeans to agree to GATT; suspended when they agreed to the terms of the treaty; was finally eliminated when the treaty had been signed, thus hurting not the oil and wine.
6:2 was Saddam; 6:4 was Desert Storm.
After 6:6: As I have told you many times, the quarter of the earth is the area occupied by the Moslem Jihad--74 degrees East Longitude to 16 degrees West Longitude; 90 degrees and exactly a quarter of the earth. The war is the Jihad War now starting; famine is widespread; death from AIDs is widespread; death from the beasts of the earth comes from ebola and Mad Cow which are transmitted by the flesh of the beasts of the earth.
All exactly and precisely as set out in his Holy Word. Praise God for the precision, accuracy and guidence he has given us in his Word to know where we are in time and can be watchful.
Verses 1-3 tell us that the "coming of Christ, and our being gathered to him" will not happen until after the "man of sin is revealed". Your speculation on verse 6 results in the rapture before the man of sin is revealed. So the speculation that the "removal of the restrainer" signifies the rapture must be wrong.
Interestingly, if you do a simple lining up of the sequences of verses 1-3
apostasy, man of sin, rapture
and verses 6-8
restraint, removal, man of sin
lining up the only common term - "man of sin", you get another possibility -
restraint, apostasy/removal, man of sin, rapture
- the "restrainer" may be the church, which is "taken out of the way" not by rapture, but by apostasy, a concept made all the more credible by the descriptions of the "last days" church:
1 Timothy 4:1
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.2 Timothy 3:1-5
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.2 Timothy 4:3-4
3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Whoa there, big fella. You are strongly implying that the greek word for "falling away" is "rapturo". Wishful thinking, that. The word is "apostasia" - rightly translated "falling away", or apostasy.
Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church.
In 1 Thes. 4:13-18 we are given a clear description of the rapture, "the dead in Christ will rise, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord."
The timing of the rapture is not known. From the word of God and from sound reasoning, something Jesus used quite frequently, I believe in the "Blessed Hope"... the pretribulation rapture.
Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture
When we search the scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour. Mat. 25:13 say Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Rev. 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1260 days. The 1260 days start when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4).
This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year tribulation (Dan 9:27). It should be noted that some people only see a 3 1/2 year tribulation. They are in a way correct, because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half.
Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a 7 year time period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1260 days (Mat 24:16).
There is no way you can apply "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here; the rapture of the Church comes before the tribulation and the return of Jesus to the earth takes place roughly seven years later.
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36 the Word states that when Christ returns He will be returning from a wedding. In Rev. 19:7-8 we read about the marriage itself. Before the marriage takes place, there is the marriage supper. According to Jewish custom the marriage contract is drawn up first, often including a dowry. This parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us.
When the time comes for the wedding to take place, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced, she comes out to meet him, and then the groom takes the bride to his father's house. This is an exact correlation of the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the groom, comes down from heaven, calls up the Church, and after meeting in the air, both He and the bride return to the His Father's house - heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place up in heaven, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation are playing themselves out. After the marriage supper takes place, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev 19:14)
MississippiMan:
It might help you MM...if you read Matt thru John as Jesus dealing/talking with the Jewish folks.
Then read from Acts thru Jude as Jesus dealing/talking to the church
And Revelation as God dealing with everything soon to be fulfilled to a unbelieving world.
1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.NIV
This website will prove to be very helpful!!!! My favorite for looking up verses.
1Thes.4
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
IMHO, this is the most difinitive verse for a pretribber.
Others might see this as more difinitive but I don't. Even though, I'll list it:
Rev.12
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
I'd be VERY careful in sensationalizing prophecy. There is also a penalty attached to those who add and subtract from the book of Revelation. I suspect there are other penalities, unspoken for other offenses.
Quick, please. I need a stock tip for Monday.
Buy oil or sell wine?
1Thes.4
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
He took the punishement I deserved on the cross. I will not be punished in the tribulation. I will be judged with other saved Christians at the White Throne.
I'm not a fatelist, just a realist and point to the Bible for what will happen to those that are saved - raptured or caught up is what will happen as listed in that verse. There are also other verses that alude to it also.
Mat 24: 38-42
Imagine me proving to you that the rapture was a scriptural reality, and then saying, "There, I've proven the mid-trib rapture". It's really not the same thing, is it?
Let's all work on separating the "what" (which we largely agree on) and the "when" (which was the point of this thread).
MT: Ruth Christine gives birth While Handcuffed; nurses weep
America the la la land. Pre-Tribbers should have been outta here by now!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.