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The "This isn't a war about religion" line.
aruanan | October 8, 2001 | aruanan

Posted on 10/08/2001 5:14:52 AM PDT by aruanan

The assumption that 'religion' can't be at the heart of things in the present conflict is itself an unexamined article of faith. It comes from the tradition of naturalism which had defined religion as something dealing with the unreal, the merely believed, beyond the grave, pie in the sky by and by, and had defined politics as the manner of dealing with real things in this present physical universe.

Two main attitudes flow from this worldview:

1. The harder leftist view: Since there's no reality behind any religious view (defined as a belief in the "supernatural" or a god or spirits), then anyone claiming to be doing anything for religious reasons is

a) ignorant, in which case he should be enlightened,

b) a fool and impervious to enlightenment, in which case he should either be eliminated or marginalized so as not to impede the real work in making this a fit world for humanity,

c) merely using religious imagery to promote some non-religious goal, in which case he should be stopped unless he happens to be weakening overall religious belief by what he's doing and so indirectly fulfilling the goal of a).

2. The softer, friendlier-sounding, Western political liberal view (the demythologized hard-left view--kindergarten communism) : Since we know that there is no reality behind any religious view, but since we know that such views can give comfort to those who believe in them and that misunderstanding about these views can cause conflict, then

a) people should be allowed to freely believe in (emphasis on 'believe' as opposed to 'act on the basis of') whatever they choose to believe in because diversity can enrich our society (for instance, Johnny here likes plaid shirts and Petyr likes those charming European blouses and Kishandra likes the vibrant colors of African dashikis and Wan-soo, bless his hardworking little heart, likes the button down collars of the corporate world, but they're all just shirts and none is better than the others--the only thing different is who likes what and how much he/she likes it),

b) people should not question the religious views of anyone else (because ultimately they have no actual supernatural referent ANYWAY) and that's a PRIVATE, personal thing (see b above about marginalization), and to do so is not being respectful of their beliefs,

c) squabbling about things that are ultimately meaningless is just not a polite thing to do in our enlightened society because then we're not being respectful and getting along,

d) people who persist in acting as though their religion is true should be tolerated unless they do something annoying to other people in which case they should not only be tolerated but DEEPLY UNDERSTOOD and when they are deeply understood they will finally realize that what they believe in is just as true as (or no more true than) what everyone else believes in and will settle down and be happy with Johnny and Petyr and Kashindra (or is it Kishandra? Oh well, names are diverse, too!) and little Wan-soo in our big happy classroom of humanity so we can all lie down together on the nap rugs of international peace and harmony, and,

e) if people should do something REALLY bad, like kill someone else, for what they call their religion, then we know that they are really doing it for political and not truly religious purposes because any true religion wouldn't do such a thing, in which case we should be very careful about doing anything at all because it would just provoke them and cause other ignorant people to join their cause for the wrong (ie, religious) reasons. Besides, since no one would have done anything really bad for religious reasons, then it must have been for some other reason, so we should try to understand their grievances and see what it was that WE did to make them feel this way (since there's no other reality but this present world and since we are the only other people in it and they have a disagreement with us, then we must have caused them to do this terrible thing) and try to help them so that we can join Johnny and Petyr and Kishandra and little Wan-soo on the nap rugs of international peace and harmony and do the most important thing in life--just get along.

No matter what.



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To: RobbyS
This attitude will take as long to impose on Muslims as it will to make peasants order their lives by the clock, especially since they will always find reasons for doubting our resolve.

Yes, but in the case of the clock, the better they got, the more everyone wanted to use them.
41 posted on 10/09/2001 9:55:50 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan
"...the default condition of the human experience"
-----beautiful and apt phrase.
Yes, they seem stuck in a historical warp, and "left out" of even the ancient but modernizing cultures they mostly sprang from. If they don't directly become a major problem for us "militarily",they are in the meanwhile becoming a huge problem for the countries they're already living in, like Pakistan. Whether we will have to deal with them, or their own countries do, it will require the "strong stomach" I mentioned even to watch the chaos unfold.
42 posted on 10/09/2001 10:10:10 PM PDT by willyboyishere
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To: Manny Festo
At some point, we're going to have to stop dancing around the all-inclusive global view, as the original poster said, that everyone's beliefs are OK as long as they don't interfere with anyone else's.

I respect other religions, I really do. I just don't think they can co-exist and intermingle in the long term. Someone always has to be on top. The U.S. needs to make Christianity its official religion and marginalize the rest. Now as for what *type* of Christianity, that's up for debate, hm?

43 posted on 10/09/2001 10:14:57 PM PDT by edayna
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To: willyboyishere
Yes, they seem stuck in a historical warp, and "left out" of even the ancient but modernizing cultures they mostly sprang from. If they don't directly become a major problem for us "militarily",they are in the meanwhile becoming a huge problem for the countries they're already living in, like Pakistan. Whether we will have to deal with them, or their own countries do, it will require the "strong stomach" I mentioned even to watch the chaos unfold.

I was reading somewhere that the middle ages was characterized by a level of brutality, ruthlessness, and violence, even among the people we in the present day consider good back then, that is completely shocking to modern sensibilities. I know that Michael Crichton (sp?) uses this in his time-traveling (not quite) book, the name of which escapes me at the moment. You can put it another way, "Teach a caveman how to use a cell phone and you'll have a cell phone-using caveman." Technology will only extend the reach of his hand, not modify the use to which he puts it; it will only expand the available territory in his worldview, not broaden his horizons. If this person, or group of persons, were living in some isolated part of the world today, people would not have much need to fear them because their level of technology wouldn't allow them much influence beyond their immediate physical presence and the speed with which they could walk or run from one place to the next. However, if they acquire the ability to use modern technology (which has always been one or another type of force multiplier), then their ethos becomes dangerous to the extent that they can use that technology to impose it on other people. It's always easier to learn to use some technology in order to facilitate one's ambitions (think of a 16-year-old's view of car ownership) than it is to modify one's worldview in order to use that technology in a way that won't kill oneself or hurt others.
44 posted on 10/10/2001 5:20:54 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan
I've never read a better, more concise description of the Left's de facto understanding of religion.

Very well done!

The next task is to determine the best way to change their views.

45 posted on 10/10/2001 5:30:11 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Quix
We are, and have been called to be, the tools in God's toolbox.

I think God has chosen to use His hammer for this project.

46 posted on 10/10/2001 5:39:02 AM PDT by Peter W. Kessler
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To: Aquinasfan
Thanks!

The next task is to determine the best way to change their views.

Have a higher birth rate, educate more of our kids through home schooling, and displace one population with another? There'll be a lot of them left in academia, but eventually even old growth forests die out.
47 posted on 10/10/2001 6:30:53 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: atafak
Yes, but according to your own analysis, "taking out" Mullahs wouldn't solve the problem. If Islam is the source of the problem, we will (according to the logic of this view) also have to "take out" every follower of this religion. If we don't (again, according to the logic of your view) new Mullahs will always be waiting in the wings.

Here's a simpler and more realistic idea. Let's retaliate against the Bin Laden gang and then totatlly withdraw from the hopelessly screwed up Islamic world

48 posted on 10/10/2001 6:59:09 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: Peter W. Kessler
Yes, I believe so.

Am reminded of THE ROCK on Whom all will either fall on and be broken

or fall under

and be CRUSHED.

49 posted on 10/10/2001 7:45:44 AM PDT by Quix
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To: aruanan
Have a higher birth rate, educate more of our kids through home schooling, and displace one population with another? There'll be a lot of them left in academia, but eventually even old growth forests die out.

Good answer. But I'm looking for instant gratification ;-)

50 posted on 10/10/2001 7:53:16 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: wjeanw
This is a religious war for Bin Laden and his 40 thiefs, but since we are not trying to wipe out Islam, nor are we trying to convert those with whom we are warring, to any other religion, it is not a religios war for us. It is a cultural war and a very straight forward war on evil.
51 posted on 10/10/2001 7:58:55 AM PDT by wingnuts'nbolts
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To: aruanan
Bump
52 posted on 10/10/2001 8:05:09 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: DreamWeaver
I cannot believe all Muslims are fanatics.

"Fanatic" is a loaded and misleading word. Is an American soldier sacrificing his life in defence of his country a fanatic? Or is a person devoting his whole life to help the poor a fanatic?

If you believe that Islam represent the ultimate truth and the God/Allah wants you to fight for the submission of infidels with a sword and you act on it are you a fanatic?

Or if you believe that you should give away everything what you have to the poor and follow Christ are you fanatic?

Or if you believe that getting rich is the ultimate goal and you work 80 hours weeks to achieve this are you a fanatic?

Or if you are zealous physician who works even harder the businessman for little money, are you a fanatic?

I thing that problem is not with the degree of zeal and commitment but with the CONTENT of your beliefs. If you believe in something good and beautiful and you live according to it your life will be good and beautiful. But if your belief in something not so good that of course it is better if you are not a "fanatic".

The most commited Christians try to emulate their Teacher to become meek, compassionate and loving, even to their enemies, to turn their second cheek and return good for evil. They can become monks, nuns or even hermits.

On the other hand the most pious Muslims will try to emulate Muhammad who was waging wars, capturing people, robbing and slaughtering his enemies.

But majority of the people will be lukewarm and "moderate" so the "average" Muslim and Christian will not differ that much.

53 posted on 10/10/2001 8:22:03 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: aruanan
Yep, The WTC and Pentagon are the holiest of shrines to Christianity and Judaism. What a great way to strike at the heart of the infidels.

---max

54 posted on 10/10/2001 8:37:24 AM PDT by max61
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Comment #55 Removed by Moderator

To: A. Pole
But majority of the people will be lukewarm and "moderate" so the "average" Muslim and Christian will not differ that much.

But the social climate in which the people love is much "warmer" and "immoderate" than the one to which the average Christian conforms. Do we even ring church bells to sound the hours anymore(they were originally calls to prayer), do most places even observe closing hours on Sunday. Even in "secular" places like Istanbul, Muslims are constantly reminded of their religious duties. Furthermore, I think the consensus is that fundamentalism is stronger today than it was fifty years ago, because Islam--unlike the Judaism-- has never gone through an "Enlightenment." Thus Arab nationalism, ewhich was supposed to supplant Islam as a unifying force Arabs, has had to give way to a resurgent Islam. You can see this in the PLO: its radicalism has become more and more religious in tone.

56 posted on 10/10/2001 8:45:58 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Cernunnos
And which form of Christianity? Our system works largely because of its diverse forms, and it was this diversity that James Madison depended on to protect the rights of conscience.
57 posted on 10/10/2001 8:50:12 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Cernunnos
"Astounding. How's that whole Constitution-as-toiletpaper bit working out for you? "

I'd bet the paper cuts in combination with the bacteria led to various cephalic infections long, long ago.

58 posted on 10/10/2001 8:58:48 AM PDT by Mr. Bungle
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To: Aquinasfan
Maybe I'm not Heavenly minded enough. . .

But I thought perhaps that higher birth rate part had some inherent "instant gratification" involved in it.

grin

59 posted on 10/10/2001 9:24:59 AM PDT by Quix
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To: willyboyishere
" . . . this is going to be a bloodbath of historical proportions . . ."

. . . but only if it's done correctly.

Bin Laden represents a sect of Islam which cannot be allowed to survive, because if it survives it will eventually attain the technological ability to destroy all life on this planet. It already has the will to do so.

We should destroy the mullahs, the schools, the families, and every living trace of "Ladenism". We should not accept their "defectors" because they are liars and will simply wait to stab us in the back when they recover their offensive capability. This should be a war of utter and complete annihilation.

But it will not be. There will be no cleansing of militant Islam because we are bound to find some "good" Islamic militants who are willing to turn on Bin Laden. And so, when Osama is laid to rest and the Taliban is rendered harmless, we will turn over that corner of the world to "friendly" Islamic "ex"-militants. And we will ride off into the sunset convinced that Virtue has conquered, and firm in our belief in the essential goodness of mankind.

And then in a decade or so, we get to do the whole thing all over again.

60 posted on 10/10/2001 9:28:59 AM PDT by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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