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China's foreign policy finally comes of age
scmp ^ | October 19 | ZHANG TIANGUANG

Posted on 10/18/2001 10:02:07 PM PDT by super175

Most Chinese people - along with most of the international community - think the central Government's decision to side with the United States and its partners in the fight against international terrorism is Beijing's wisest decision in a decade.

President Jiang Zemin, who was among the first foreign leaders to telephone President George W. Bush after the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, has handled the crisis well. He has condemned the September 11 assaults, expressed his shock and condolences to the American people, and reiterated his full support for the fight against terrorism.

In the past, Beijing has disappointed its people with poor foreign-policy decisions - for example, the central Government has been soft on Japan and stayed mute when Pakistan's military staged a coup two years ago.

The worst episode was in 1990, when Beijing abstained in the United Nations Security Council's vote endorsing the use of force to oust Iraqi troops from Kuwait. China has been victimised by Japanese and other foreign aggression, so most Chinese are baffled as to why their government is sympathetic towards Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

China's unconditional support of the US-led war against terrorism is refreshing for the world and the people of China. A week after the attacks, Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan went to Washington on a trip that had been scheduled earlier to prepare for this weekend's summit between Mr Jiang and Mr Bush at the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation meeting in Shanghai. During Mr Tang's visit, the two countries agreed to share intelligence that might aid the Bush administration's war on terrorism. Soon after, Beijing sent a delegation of counter-terrorism experts to Washington to explore avenues of co-operation.

But for most Chinese, humiliations at the hands of America - for instance, the US-led Nato bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade in May 1999, and the mid-air collision of a US spy plane and a Chinese fighter jet resulting in the loss of the fighter pilot in April this year - are still fresh in the mind.

Chinese people simply do not believe US claims that the embassy bombing was an accident because they think US intelligence systems are too sophisticated to allow such an error. As for the spy-plane incident, most Chinese are less concerned with the actual cause of the accident than with the fact that the US was spying on their country. Most insulting, in their view, is Washington's dismissal of its surveillance activities as "routine" and its resumption of such flights shortly after the accident.

Given this angry backdrop, many Chinese, although shocked, took some solace in the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon because they revealed America to be as vulnerable as China. These people believe that to some extent the US Government's unilateral policies are to blame. That does not mean they think Islamic extremists are blameless or that ordinary American people deserve to be hurt, just that the US has reaped what it has sown.

There are plenty of reasons for Beijing to co-operate with the US-led international coalition against terrorism. This will burnish China's international image, improve its relations with Washington and legitimise its fight against terrorism in Xinjiang province, where pro-independence Islamic extremists periodically stage violent attacks.

Initially, Beijing might have attempted to link its co-operation with US support for its fight against separatists in western China and Taiwan, but it later decided this was unwise during such a crisis. But Beijing might still be concerned that US retaliation against Afghan-supported terrorist organisations could result in a long-term US presence in Central Asia and an expansion of Japan's military role.

Sino-American relations are at a crossroads. The US should stop demonising China, which cannot be a "strategic competitor" for the foreseeable future, even though Beijing prefers a multi-polar world. And China should initiate political reforms and abandon its policy of making the fight against US hegemony its security priority. In fact, the Chinese people and the American people are friends - it is just their governments that do not get along. One lesson to be drawn from the September 11 attacks is that it is much safer to make friends than enemies.

When Beijing and Washington drop their Cold War mentalities, they will find they are more constructive partners than strategic competitors. They will find a new world in which all people can live peacefully and co-operatively.

All the nations of the world - especially such powers as China, Russia and the US - are re-evaluating their foreign policies after the terrorist attacks. Most noticeably, Washington is co-operating more with the UN and its member countries and is involved more in the Middle East peace negotiations (the US has even come out in support of a Palestinian state).

The US-led military strikes on Osama bin Laden, who is alleged to have masterminded the September 11 attacks, and the Taleban regime harbouring him in Afghanistan have so far been proper and limited, although some hawks in the Pentagon want to expand the war.

These are signs that a new world is coming and Beijing and Washington should seize this opportunity.

Zhang Tianguang (zhangtianguang@yahoo.com) is a senior engineer who studied American Studies, as a civilian, at the PLA's Foreign Language University in Luoyang, Henan province.


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China should initiate political reforms and abandon its policy of making the fight against US hegemony its security priority

BIG bump. The root causes of this policy is what I want to talk about.

China has been victimised by Japanese and other foreign aggression,

and America was not? What about those people in Pearl Harbor? Or the people in the Baatan Death March?

Did America not fight Japan?

Their resentment of America stems from several associated things. 1. Our ‘support’ for the KMT during WWII. 2. At that time, their Communist ideologies dictated that US ‘capitalism’ was evil and should be destroyed. They were an extension of the old USSR.

Recently I read some Mainlander’s interpretation of the 1911 Revolution. His point was that that revolution had no particular aim, and was a ‘revolution about nothing more than popular discontent.’ He even blatantly stated that “the revolution of 1911 offered NO alternatives” to China’s problems.

He then went on to say that the Revolution of 1949 was merely an extension of the 1911 Revolution, basically ‘in order to finish the job’. To him, the 1911 revolution was “incomplete”.

In reality though Dr. Sun envisioned a great alternative for China based on American Democracy. Dr. Sun went to school in Hawaii with Americans from a very young age. He lived there for many years starting from his early teens. He also went to the Ivy League for further education. To say he was not influenced by America is foolish.

He wanted to create a Republic in China. A Republic is a group of individual states voluntarily bound together to create a nation, hence his stance on “one-China”. His vision was based on the American federal system.

The Revolution of 1949 was not a continuation of the Revolution of 1911. It was a Revolution against the ideals of the then in charge KMT. They were capitalists. They were friends with America. The VERY thing Dr Sun set up to bring about his vision of a modern China, the CCP (led by the ruthless USSR) led a revolution against.

Not all revolutions are created equal. America itself was founded in Revolution.

There are two competing views of Dr. Sun. On the CCP side, their revolution was ‘an extension of Dr. Sun’s revolution’.

On the other hand (and in reality) Dr. Sun’s revolution took time to implement. It was a revolution with democratic ideals at its roots. The term ‘republic’ and ‘democracy’ were meant to be taken literally, with America as their backdrop or inspiration.

Now the CCP is claiming that Communist China no longer exists

Why is that and what does that mean for the future? Is China finally coming around to what Dr. Sun REALLY had in mind?

The fact is the CCP in its one party rule is nothing different than the feudal system all over again—just with a different name attached to it.

IMO to solve the Taiwan China problem

#1. China has to create a China that was envisioned by Dr. Sun. One party rule should be phased out and local controls in a “republic” should be phased in. However those individual units wish to obtain their leaders is up to them. That in and of itself preserves Taiwan’s identity and democracy.

#2. Taiwan has to realize reality. When I say that I do not mean (and never will) that Beijing or the CCP will be their rulers. I do mean though that they have to realize that there is (or should be) fundamental changes going on in China. Despite the fact that the KMT is not the ones bringing this change, that it IS happening.

So there you have it. Taiwan’s democracy and identity is preserved, and ‘one-China’ is also preserved. The only casualty of the process will be one party rule on the mainland. Democracy is the strongest form of government for economic management and for the good of the people. Democracy can eliminate a great deal of the corruption existing in China’s power structure.

Likewise a “republic” can and will solve and great number of China’s internal problems.

The ball is in the court of those on the mainland. Reform and getting back to the original plan is the only way to solve the problems.

In fact, the Chinese people and the American people are friends - it is just their governments that do not get along.

PS...China's resentment of Japan stems from a racial perspective, not one of a political system, or from personal responsibility of those people who did those things.

1 posted on 10/18/2001 10:02:07 PM PDT by super175
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To: super175
US support for the KMT (both then and now) calls into open and blunt question CCP rule.
2 posted on 10/18/2001 10:04:21 PM PDT by super175
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To: color_tear; Hopalong; Lake
bump
3 posted on 10/18/2001 10:10:15 PM PDT by super175
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To: super175
Nothing like the Chinese watching Russia and the US work together more than they ever could have imagined on the War on Terrorism to get their act in line. Even they can read the writing on the Great Wall
4 posted on 10/18/2001 10:15:04 PM PDT by stilts
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To: Black Jade
The term "democracy" on the mainland has gone through so many rounds in the CCP propaganda machine that it is not even funny.

It is the most propagandized word in CCP language...

PS...The original aims of Dr. Sun, and the Revolution of 1911 are still the very key to solving many of China's problems...90 years later...

5 posted on 10/18/2001 10:15:09 PM PDT by super175
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To: color_tear; Lake
The fact of the matter is, the 1949 revolution was not an extension of the 1911 Revolution. It was a Revolution against the KMT.

The CCP was extremely brutal in how they came to power and how they have maintained power.

The CCP were the very authors of the sabotage behind the NanJing Massacre, to just name one. Tang Sheng Chih, who died with national honors from the CCP, was responsible for setting up the KMT and sabotaging them. The CCP and its spies, like Tang, were responsible for the deaths at NanJing. Why support such and action? If you are the CCP, and the KMT is in charge, and you want them to be unpopular, and you want their power, and you are trying to stir up the nation to anger in your behalf...why not? They did not care about any Chinese people. They only wanted power.

The CCP was on a mission to sabotage and bring down the KMT at any cost.

These things are some of the core issues at stake...

6 posted on 10/18/2001 10:27:24 PM PDT by super175
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To: super175
Don't know if I'm as optimistic about a Chinese republic. When 90% of the population is Han, there need to be some pretty strong checks and balances to insure that place like Tibet and Xinjiang don't just end up like they are now. It's depressing that even well educated, liberal Chinese still tow thw party line about the 'indivisibilty of the motehrland,' yada yada yada. Even if the average Chinese person gets more say, Tibet is still screwed, I think. As unlikely as it is, independance, not Sun's vision, is what Tibet needs.
7 posted on 10/18/2001 10:27:35 PM PDT by FreepTibet
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To: FreepTibet
A lot of people make that statement about "90% being Han".

How much have you travelled around China?

There are more than 1,000 languages in China.

IMO "Han" is about like saying "white". Germans are white and so are the British, but they are not 100% the same.

In China there are traditionally many tribal/village cultures all unique from each other. Then you have the Tibet thing, and the XinJiang thing...

Chinese feudalism (and CCP one party control) is no different than colonization.

PS, I posted an article on here (somewhere) where the Dalai Lama himself said "true Chinese culture exists on Taiwan" and that he would accept local autonomy for Tibetans under a 'republic' style system.

I cannot say if he truly wants independence, as in total 100% independence or just the freedom to control their own destiny and practice their religion as they see fit.

8 posted on 10/18/2001 10:38:00 PM PDT by super175
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To: FreepTibet
That whole "one-China" thing (the CCP version) basically equates to "one party rule, and you better not challenge that".

To even entertain the idea of all Chinese people being the same is sheer ignorance.

The CCP knows people do not believe like they do, that is why they try to brainwash so many people, and silence dissenting voices.

9 posted on 10/18/2001 10:40:57 PM PDT by super175
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To: FreepTibet
"Han" is about like saying "American Indian".

There are how many different tribes? Cherokee, Blackfoot, Ute...there are hundreds and all are different.

In China some even had their own writing. There is a program that comes on TV every now and then about 'nu-shu' writing. It is a totally different form of Chinese writing.

It was barely preserved because the cultural revolution burned everything they could find written in that language.

Also don't forget, those 'jian-ti' characters were created by the Communists.

The CCP went on a tirade to destroy all minority cultures. To them there was going to be 'one-China' and that meant everything. During the Cultural Revolution they destroyed so much of the various Chinese heritages.

For many years "Chinese/China" were used as synonyms for "Communism". If you did not believe in Communism then you were not "Chinese".

10 posted on 10/18/2001 10:49:02 PM PDT by super175
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To: tallhappy; Lake
One more thing... the CCP has to move those missiles away from Taiwan... totally. This whole idea of intimidation is not working, nor winning Beijing any friends.

At the very best, all it is doing is satisfying demands of the ignorant on the inside of the Mainland...

11 posted on 10/18/2001 10:57:15 PM PDT by super175
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To: Lake
I think if China comes out and OPENLY says to the world a few things and outlines a plan for reform, it will change a whole lot of the bad perception of China.

1. We will, no questions asked remove our military threat from Taiwan.

2. At the same time, declare publicly a 10 or 20 year plan to create a Republic and institute democratic reforms, to which they hope Taiwan will participate. (both in the reforms, as well as the Republic)

Those things should become the Party line.

Taiwan would not mind (I don't think) being in an "alliance" with the Mainland. It is the idea that they will be 'ruled by the CCP' that has everyone upset.

An alliance, as far as Taiwan is concerned, would mean that they get to send a regular representative to the Mainland for an official position. Everything else stays the same. Taiwan still has elections, a President, self determination, their own identity, everything.

12 posted on 10/18/2001 11:07:47 PM PDT by super175
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To: super175
Taiwan has to realize reality. When I say that I do not mean (and never will) that Beijing or the CCP will be their rulers. I do mean though that they have to realize that there is (or should be) fundamental changes going on in China. Despite the fact that the KMT is not the ones bringing this change, that it IS happening.

The reality is Taiwan is not part of China. Everyone knows it.

Taiwan knows about the fundamental changes in China better than anyone. And they exploit them better as well.

Many if not most people of Taiwan are not against being part of China because it is drummed in to their head from an early age. With the death of Chinag Ching-kuo and collapse of old school KMT that brainwashing is ending.

The only solution is de jure recognition of Taiwan.

Later they can unify or not.

Really when you say, "I do not mean (and never will) that Beijing or the CCP will be their rulers," it is difficult to know exactly what you are saying.

It's nice to think of a free China with Taiwan a part of it, but the Taiwan part is really superfluous.

Taiwan never really has been part of China and whether it is part of a free China or not is not very important.

A free China is a bigger issue.

Taiwan was not part of China when the Qing dynasty defeated the Ming (in fact Chinese people didn't even have any presence as a society there and never had).

When the Qing fell in 1911 and Dr Sun became the first President and the Republic was formed, Taiwan was not part of China.

The whole issue is nonsense and artificially imposed on Taiwan by despotic regimes, the Qing and Japanese first and the CCP and KMT later.

Mao and Chiang are dead more than a qarter century. Why does the US act as Mao's surrogate?

Why is our policy determined by long dead despots? It makes no sense.

13 posted on 10/18/2001 11:20:00 PM PDT by tallhappy
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To: tallhappy
The reality is Taiwan is not part of China.

I guess it all depends on how you define the word "China" or "Chinese".

If I said "Taiwan is part of Asia" or "Taiwan is in Asia" would everyone freak out?

The stigma about "China" comes from 1. Feudalism. 2. Communism (including the CCP and the stuff they did)

If we come up with a completely new, brand new defintion of "China", then what?

I would never advocate Taiwan being under a feudal dictatorship. Historically "China" has been defined by dynasties. Whoever happens to be in charge, happens to be the definition of "China"...

14 posted on 10/18/2001 11:35:11 PM PDT by super175
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To: super175
I guess it all depends on how you define the word "China" or "Chinese".

How do you define it?

As far as the world is concerned, China means People's Republic of China.

Taiwan is not part of that.

China is a political term, not geographic.

15 posted on 10/18/2001 11:43:31 PM PDT by tallhappy
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To: tallhappy
Taiwan has never been part of the PRC. Never has and probably never will.

You ask me how I define "China"? I define it in much larger and broader terms than just the PRC.

"China" has been around for 5,000 years. The PRC has been around for 50 years. You can do the math...

As far as it not being a geographic term, who knows...

Right now, the political definition of "China" is still up in the air. What about the ROC? Or the PRC? Couldn't there conceivably be a new way to define that word?

If you ask me to be specific in what I believe (other than what I said above), I cannot do it without a lot of thought.

16 posted on 10/18/2001 11:56:43 PM PDT by super175
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To: tallhappy
The original "China" or "Qin Dynasty" era China was only about 1/4 the size of today's "China".

"China" is an English term, not a Chinese one.

The "middle kingdom" refered to the kingdom of the monarch, however big or small that kingdom might have been...

17 posted on 10/19/2001 12:00:58 AM PDT by super175
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To: tallhappy
To the Chinese, any place (or people) that have ever been conquered to be under the rule of Chinese monarchs, or part of their kingdom(s), were part of "zhong guo" or 'part of the emperor's kingdom', whichever "zhong guo" they were talking about.

Translate that the English and what do you get?

Geographically "China" has changed sizes more times than I can count. There have historically been many "China's".

18 posted on 10/19/2001 12:06:39 AM PDT by super175
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To: tallhappy
The Chinese used to believe that "heaven was round, and that the world was square".

What is the character for "zhong" of "zhong guo"?

19 posted on 10/19/2001 12:30:45 AM PDT by super175
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To: super175
President Jiang Zemin, who was among the first foreign leaders to telephone President George W. Bush after the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, has handled the crisis well. He has condemned the September 11 assaults, expressed his shock and condolences to the American people, and reiterated his full support for the fight against terrorism.

Can that be that Mr. Putin was the FIRST foreign leader to express outrage and condemnation for the 9/11 attack? Can that be, that, in light of the outstanding cooperation, between US and Russian military strategist and the willingness of former soviet states to allow unconditioned access to their land and military facilities, to strike Afganistan?
Me thinks the china mens are just realising that their so called strategic alliance with ol'Russia if falling by the way side, because the good ol'USofA has way more to offer to mother Russia than China. Mr.Putin is an old fox, and he knows very well who is who and the chinese have no chance of beating USofA in any aspect economically or politically when it comes to Russia's benefit.

Well, it's saving face one more time for the chinese leaders, by ever so grudgendly acknowledging our actions in the Afganistan theather are right to root out the terrorism. They did not endorse it, nor did they condemmed it, it was just your garden variety of chinese wishi/washi as usual. It looks like having strong principals and standing for something you believe in is a strange custom to the chinese. No wonder one of their biggest display in any of their important events is...a SNAKE!
Do I have to say more!!!!!

20 posted on 10/19/2001 12:37:19 AM PDT by danmar
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To: Otto von Bismark
...correction, a looong waving Dragon! My mistake....
21 posted on 10/19/2001 12:43:04 AM PDT by danmar
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To: Otto von Bismark
...well I guess the head is important!
22 posted on 10/19/2001 12:45:51 AM PDT by danmar
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To: super175
In your recent posts ruminating on China, nothing pertinent to Taiwan was discussed.

You need to study Taiwan's history a bit more.

It was a province of China for all of 10 years.

Chinese people only moved there 300 years ago or so.

It was given to Japan.

If the same criteria applied to other nations, we and Austrlia and Canada would be part of the UK.

Your ideas are fine, but the problem is, no one in China believes them and no one in Taiwan believes them or cares about them.

There is no one (except maybe some Chinese dissidents in exile) thinking or hoping for a unification of Taiwan with China based on freedom and democracy and Dr Sun's principles.

Korea and Vietnam were more a part of China than Taiwan ever was, yet no one is talking about them reunifying.

This ia all about the KMT escaping to taiwan, not about Taiwan.

If they'd escaped and taken over Korea the chiComs today would be screaming Korea is part of Taiwan.

23 posted on 10/19/2001 1:06:38 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: super175
>>Their resentment of America stems from several associated things. 1. Our ‘support’ for the KMT during WWII. 2. At that time, their Communist ideologies dictated that US ‘capitalism’ was evil and should be destroyed. They were an extension of the old USSR.

Let me add some more:

3. The Korean War in which China and the US fought each other.

4. The Taiwan issue.

5. The US recognition of ROC as the legitimate government representing China for 30 years by excluding PRC from the world community, including the UN.

........

>>He then went on to say that the Revolution of 1949 was merely an extension of the 1911 Revolution, basically ‘in order to finish the job’. To him, the 1911 revolution was “incomplete”.

Mao also said the goals of the 1949 revolution were anti-imperialism, anti-feudalism, and national independence and freedom.

>>The original aims of Dr. Sun, and the Revolution of 1911 are still the very key to solving many of China's problems...90 years later...

Over a week ago Jiang claimed the CCP is the only loyal follower of Sun's vision. Looks like Jiang is going to transform the CCP into a nationalist party.

>>The CCP was extremely brutal in how they came to power and how they have maintained power.

The CCP executed many landlords during the land reform. However, the land reform is one of Sun's major policies which the KMT failed to carry out. This was the major reason why the KMT lost power in the mainland.

>>The CCP and its spies, like Tang, were responsible for the deaths at NanJing.

You may have to give some facts to show the CCP's involvement.

>>There are more than 1,000 languages in China.

Not "languages", but "dialects".

>>Also don't forget, those 'jian-ti' characters were created by the Communists.

The simplified Chinese characters started in the New Culture movement aftre 1911 revolution. Many liberal intellectuals advocated the use of simplified Chinese characters as a way to westernize China. The KMT did accepted the suggestion because the feudalistic conservatives were so strong at the time. Radical liberals even wanted to completely abandon Chinese characters by using PinYin with Latin letters.

>>During the Cultural Revolution they destroyed so much of the various Chinese heritages.

It is interesting that the radical liberals in China also wanted to destroy ALL Chinese heritages through FULL westernization.

>>1. We will, no questions asked remove our military threat from Taiwan.

China said it will remove the military along the coast facing Taiwan if Taiwan recognizes One China. But China will never exclude the use of force in solving the Taiwan problem.

>>2. At the same time, declare publicly a 10 or 20 year plan to create a Republic and institute democratic reforms, to which they hope Taiwan will participate. (both in the reforms, as well as the Republic)

I don't think the CPP will publicly declare a timetable for the political reform because it's too risky. The CPP will reform itself in order to stay in power, not to lose power. So there will be political reform in China, but not too fast to still keep the CCP a ruling party. It's the nature of human beings. No one wants to lose power.

>>Taiwan would not mind (I don't think) being in an "alliance" with the Mainland. It is the idea that they will be 'ruled by the CCP' that has everyone upset.

Not exactly. People have wants, right? Being the king of a small state is much better than being a minister of a big nation. Do you want to be a middle manager of big Co. or the boss of a small business? Many people prefer the latter. It's also the nature of human beings.

>>An alliance, as far as Taiwan is concerned, would mean that they get to send a regular representative to the Mainland for an official position. Everything else stays the same. Taiwan still has elections, a President, self determination, their own identity, everything.

The major issues here are the defence and diplomacy. This is what ONE country really cares about. Say, if China had a war against or were invaeded by other countries , would the mainland an Taiwan fight the common enemies?

>>To the Chinese, any place (or people) that have ever been conquered to be under the rule of Chinese monarchs, or part of their kingdom(s), were part of "zhong guo" or 'part of the emperor's kingdom', whichever "zhong guo" they were talking about.

Right. Many Chinese are now talking about Outer Mongolia and Central Asia. Historically those areas used to be part of China. Because China thinks Ginges Khan was one of the CHINESE emperors the historic Chinese territory streched to the central Europe.

24 posted on 10/19/2001 3:37:38 AM PDT by Lake
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To: FreepTibet
Even if the average Chinese person gets more say, Tibet is still screwed, I think. As unlikely as it is, independance, not Sun's vision, is what Tibet needs.

First of all, I don't believe Chinese are 90% Hans. Whenever race is brought up people with mixed races are screwed and in China that is a tremendous number.

Do you see Hawaii and Alaska got screwed? If not then Tibet and XinJiang will not be screwed. Let's replace CCP with a real republic goverment and discuss Tibet's independence later.

25 posted on 10/19/2001 7:49:11 AM PDT by color_tear
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To: super175
I cannot say if he truly wants independence, as in total 100% independence or just the freedom to control their own destiny and practice their religion as they see fit.

Tibets are Buddhists and they don't really want the political independence because they already have their spiritual independence. They want freedom to control their own destiny which is their religion.

I've been asking the question over and over again and got no answer back from any person supports CCP: Why is there no freedom of religion in China? Freedom of religion has been in China for more than 2000 years.

26 posted on 10/19/2001 7:55:32 AM PDT by color_tear
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To: tallhappy
The reality is Taiwan is not part of China. Everyone knows it.

I don't know this "reality".

Many if not most people of Taiwan are not against being part of China because it is drummed in to their head from an early age.

Only those Taiwanese KMT members are brainwashed and DPP members are normal? Under the same education system and background? Be real!

The only solution is de jure recognition of Taiwan.

Please tell this to people in MaTsu and KinMan and also KeJiaZen. Do you respect them or screw them?

Taiwan never really has been part of China and whether it is part of a free China or not is not very important.

Yeah right! Go visit cemetaries in Taiwan and read those headstones then tell me about it.

Taiwan was not part of China when the Qing dynasty defeated the Ming (in fact Chinese people didn't even have any presence as a society there and never had).

Go visit cemetaries in Taiwan.

27 posted on 10/19/2001 8:12:54 AM PDT by color_tear
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To: tallhappy
You need to study Taiwan's history a bit more.

You too!

It was a province of China for all of 10 years.

Are you sure? Go study the history.

Chinese people only moved there 300 years ago or so.

White people moved to America ?? years ago. So you are saying Taiwan belongs to those native Taiwaneses but there are so many different tribes with totally different languages and cultures. Who owns Taiwan? Obvious not people speak MinNan dialect.

You are really brainwashed by some twisted information.

28 posted on 10/19/2001 8:27:41 AM PDT by color_tear
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To: Lake
Your 3,4,5 stem from my #1 and #2. I could also add in that the CCP views the US as 'aggressors'. The CCP party line says, "the US teamed up with Japan to overthrow the CCP".

The people of Taiwan IMO can work with "China" and co-exists, or any other number of scenarios, but the CCP is wholly unfit for anything. There is no way the CCP should be governing (at least in its current form). I am not saying that 100% of the people IN the CCP are unqualified for anything, but rather that Mainland needs a new system, new ideals, a new political system, and a new place in the world. Everyone keeps talking about 'building a world to suit China'. This won't happen. China has to change to fit into the world, not the other way around.

That is the requirement.

If I was making foreign policy, I will

1. Abandon all 3 communiques with the PRC.

2. Have Korea, Taiwan, Japan, India, and the US all band together into mutual defense.

3. I would try to open up India's economy for manufacturing so that they can compete with China's cheap labor.

4. Build NMD, including put it over Taiwan.

5. Taiwan would get 100% support from the US for international recognition and independence. If China tries to attack, America will intervene-- by law. If China tries to get too bold, nuclear force will be used against the PLA, and if that does not work, against Beijing city.

6. Taiwan can enter into a geographically inspired alliance with the Mainland and still be independent to some sorts.

7. I will one way or another downgrade relations with the CCP so that they are on 100% equal footing with Taiwan. I will either recognize Taiwan, or downgrade Beijing. Permanently. That is until this problem is solved in a manner of equality.

8. Ensure that America will not attack the Mainland unless the Mainland attacks.

9. On a day to day basis I will not seek to harm China, and will cooperate in those areas that we can, that will help China reform enough to fit into the world. The world is not wrong. China is wrong.

29 posted on 10/19/2001 8:55:45 AM PDT by super175
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To: Lake
Also every time the Mainland authorities do something like they did with this Taiwan APEC thing, I will take it out on the Mainland authorities.

I won't just talk about it either. I will bar Chinese products from the US or expel the CCP's 'ambassador', put year long sanctions on various Chinese companies, or something. I would be extremely rude and mean to them. The rule will be, 'being nice begets being nice. Being mean begets being mean'. Then I will enforce that doctrine, but let Beijing choose which they want. It will be an eye for an eye.

If they can be mean, so can the USA.

30 posted on 10/19/2001 9:02:31 AM PDT by super175
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To: color_tear
Color Tear.

You are trying my patience.

The Qing designated Taiwan as a province in 1885 or 1887. It was given to Japan in 1895. Learn some addition.

It was settled in the mid 1600's in response to the Ming defeat. It took the Qing a few decades to subdue it. It became a "prefecture" of Fujian province.

It was only a province in its own right from 1885 to 1895 -- ten years.

There's not much reason to argue with you because I am accurate in my facts.

Your problem is you do not understand what I am saying does not preclude Taiwan from being part of any future China, if they want.

It, though, does address history accurately, and does address real solutions to the problem of China and their troublemaking.

You are more trouble for Taiwan now than the ChiComs.

Taiwan is not part of what is known as and spoken of as China -- the People's Republic of China. Anyone saying otherwise has mental problems.

If you want to say Taiwan is part of China because it is part of the ROC, then fine.

As far as Kinmen and Matzu, the people there can make their own choice. So far they like ROC/Taiwan.

But they might opt for a Hong Kong type situation -- I'd think they were crazy, but it is their choice.

I really do not think you understand your own positions because they are so self contradictory.

31 posted on 10/19/2001 10:45:52 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: super175
#29, yes. You got it. 100%
32 posted on 10/19/2001 10:47:27 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: tallhappy
Taiwan is part of China and that is it.
Why do you insist on China is PRC?
PRC was never elected by the people of China.
33 posted on 10/19/2001 2:38:42 PM PDT by color_tear
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To: color_tear
Taiwan is part of China and that is it.

Maybe if you hold your breath and turn blue it will be true.

There is no country named China. There is PRC. There is ROC.

There is not China.

When people say China, they mean the PRC.

What do you think it means?

34 posted on 10/19/2001 5:11:30 PM PDT by tallhappy
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To: color_tear
Do you see Hawaii and Alaska got screwed? If not then Tibet and XinJiang will not be screwed. Let's replace CCP with a real republic goverment and discuss Tibet's independence later.

LOL. Why not ask the original inhabitants (Native Am's) of Alaska and Hawaii? They might give you a different spin on whether or not they got 'screwed.' The same applies to Tibet.

As for Tibetans not wanting political independence because they have 'religious independence' is ridiculous. Why, then, is Tibet pretty much one large PLA base? Why do they have to put down riots every five years or so? Why are 100,000+ Tibetans now in exile?

There can be no religious freedom without political freedom, especially in Tibet where the two are so intertwined (for good or bad...)

As fot Tibet being part of some republic, why should they? China's claim on Tibet is about as historically based as their claim on Outer Mongolia and Korea!

35 posted on 10/19/2001 7:35:01 PM PDT by FreepTibet
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: Black Jade
it also would not be historically accurate to say that the 1911 revolution led by Sun Yat-sen was for "democracy" or a "republic" as we know it in the West. Sun had a very elusive concept of "democracy."

That is sheer and utter BS. You are making some post facto big deal about being with the Russians.

In 1933 the US recognized the USSR...of course they were asked not to spread communist propaganda in the USA. 1933 was 7 years after Sun's death. Communism was still in its infancy back in the 1920s. Mussolini founded his party in 1919. The CCP in China was not even (fully) organized until 1922.

Sun joined with the Soviets because of AMERICA. America would not help anyone, so the choice was either the Soviets, or no more revolution. America's foreign policy at those times, was f-you. Its not our problem...They had the same stance in Europe and Asia both.

Read Sun's books. He was worried about gaining control of China first, then implementing his plan, over time, second. He wrote specifically about not going radically from one system to another...

37 posted on 10/20/2001 9:23:07 AM PDT by super175
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To: Black Jade
What was appealing about the Soviets? #1. They helped and provided supplies.

2. They led a Revolution out of similiar poor circumstances.

Sun and Chiang were studying ways to make their own Revolution successful.

To even suggest that Chiang or Sun were Communists, especially back before Communism had really even taken off (before 1926 in Sun's case) displays total ignorance.

It would be about like saying, "they used Russian, guns, and Russian tanks, therefore they were Communists."

There is no way that Sun, and ESPECIALLY Chiang were Communist.

Black Jade, you are off the mark.

38 posted on 10/20/2001 9:34:55 AM PDT by super175
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To: Black Jade
Supposedly when "Sun turned Communist" (along with Chiang) in the early 1920s (it had to be then because Sun died in 1926), the Communist Party in China was a tiny, and rejected rag tag group. They were by far the minority. That whole idea is a joke by far.

Conversely, Sun spent a great deal of time in America, being educated in America both throughout his teens and his university years.

His Revolution was based on the American Revolution more than anything.

It would be the height of ignorance though to expect anyone or any country, Sun or Chiang included to be 100% in lock step with the USA. No one does that, not then or now.

Those people have their own self interests and will seek to fulfill those interests where-ever they can.

Sun's ideas were not 100% lock stock and barrel in line with everything exactly "American" as many arrogant Americans hope to believe. However, he DID envision strong Democracy with Chinese characteristics. He applied American ideology to his situation, thus creating a unique, third option.

The idea of a 4th option (a Communist Sun Yat Sen) is garbage.

39 posted on 10/20/2001 11:04:09 AM PDT by super175
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To: Black Jade
as we know it in the West

This sounds extremely arrogant,the way you put it. You are inferring that anything other than 100% American style Democracy is somehow 'inferior'. If they don't have the exact word for word Constitution that American has then 'they are not quite a democracy'.

Under those definitions England, and Australia, and France, all would not be Democracies.

There are core basic principles behind "Democracy" that make things a "Democracy".

40 posted on 10/20/2001 11:10:26 AM PDT by super175
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To: super175
Most Chinese people

Most Chinese people are slaves, and who cares what a slave thinks?.

---max

41 posted on 10/20/2001 11:14:25 AM PDT by max61
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To: max61
Is that a question or a statement?
42 posted on 10/20/2001 11:16:37 AM PDT by super175
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To: Black Jade
Sun's ideas about Democracy were a mixture of European and American and a few other democratic based governments.

Although it was not 100% lock stock and barrel in line with the way ego-centric Americans want to believe, it was still democracy. Because it was 'foreign' and 'not exactly the way we Americans do it', therefore it must be wrong, according to some.

43 posted on 10/20/2001 11:20:19 AM PDT by super175
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Black Jade
I said, "There are core basic principles behind "Democracy" that make things a "Democracy".

You said, "If you are saying that there is no objective criteria for "democracy," I disagree."

How in the heck did you come up with that?

So what are the basic principles of democracy?

I know what I think, but I want to hear your ideas.

For the time being here is mine (as best I can express them in just a few words)...

Basic human rights. Countries who function on a basis of basic human rights, intelect, questioning (and obtaining) information, freedom to question and speak the results.

That has to be the foundation, and not just for the upper echelon people, but for the masses too.

Democracies cannot put nation over people, because the people are the nation.

When those principles are manifest in a society first, and then in that society's political system, the basic roots of democracy are laid.

After that, the next step is devising a fair way to pick the leaders.

One more principle that I would mention is rule of law that applies equally to everyone.

It is a complicated issue, but those should get us started...

Your turn.

45 posted on 10/20/2001 4:17:20 PM PDT by super175
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To: Black Jade
>>He also received some education from the Russians, and the structure of the KMT loosely followed the Leninist model of a party dictatorship.

Right. The KMT was founded as a "revolutionary" party with the help of Russian advisors. Sun asked all members to sign a "loyalty" letter to himself. Huang Xing, second to Sun in the anti-Qing revolution and leader of anti-Qing uprising, opposed Sun's style of dictorship and left the KMT. Huang Xing was influenced by American-style democracy and wanted a true republic. He died in the US. When soldiers were fighting Qing's army to overthrow the dynasty, Sun was in Hawaii.

>>That's why you can see parallel structures even in the CCP & KMT today.

Actually the CCP used to be the left-wing faction in the KMT and was split from it in 1927.

>>Sun's life may seem paradoxical, but none of these various elements can be ignored in order to remain true to the historical record.

Sun is now a symbolic figure respected by both CCP and KMT. People don't know what Sun really was. There have been different versions of Sun, depending on what you want.

46 posted on 10/20/2001 6:12:52 PM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>America would not help anyone, so the choice was either the Soviets, or no more revolution

The US and Britain supported Sun Chuanfang, a warlord who controlled the eastern part of China, including Shanghai. After Chiang Kai-Shek's troops entered Shanghai and promised to protect American and British interets in China, America started suppoting Chiang. The US was not neutral in the Chinese civil wars.

>>He wrote specifically about not going radically from one system to another...

Sun tried more than seven times to use force to overthrow the existing governments, the central govt. in Beijing and the local governments in Guangdong, after ROC was established. Sun wanted power. Sun was not G. Washington.

47 posted on 10/20/2001 6:23:59 PM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>To even suggest that Chiang or Sun were Communists, especially back before Communism had really even taken off (before 1926 in Sun's case) displays total ignorance.

Sun said to the communists in the KMT, "Three Peoples Theory IS communism". It is written in Sun's books.

>>There is no way that Sun, and ESPECIALLY Chiang were Communist.

Chiang used to the leftist in the KMT. Huang Pu Military Academy was established by Russians with Lenin-style Even today there are still political commissars in ROC's troops. Same structure as the PLA.

>>Conversely, Sun spent a great deal of time in America, being educated in America both throughout his teens and his university years.

Sun was not educated in the US. Sun was a political refugee in the US.

>>His Revolution was based on the American Revolution more than anything.

Not true. His slogan for the revolution was "Expel the Mongels and Restore Hans". Sounds like a racist.

>>He applied American ideology to his situation, thus creating a unique, third option.

He craeted different options for different people in order to get support and win the power.

>>Sun's ideas about Democracy were a mixture of European and American and a few other democratic based governments.

Sun's ideas about Democracy were a mixture of Chinese feudalism, American democracy and Russian communism. If Nazism had been out there, it would have been in his mixture.

48 posted on 10/20/2001 6:45:09 PM PDT by Lake
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To: Black Jade
>>On the other hand, if you want to examine the historical record and see what the realities are, then you will have an accurate picture of Sun and Chiang. I can't make that decision for you. But I am not going to just sit here silently while you post something on a public forum, which is at odds with historical fact.

Great remark. Great.

49 posted on 10/20/2001 6:48:03 PM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>Basic human rights.

Sun never talked about "human rights". He was kind of racist, or greater-Han-ist.

50 posted on 10/20/2001 6:53:00 PM PDT by Lake
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