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Info on Smallpox vaccine for freepers
Centers for Disease Control ^ | Bones

Posted on 10/21/2001 10:33:10 PM PDT by bonesmccoy

Just wanted to leave you all some info on Vaccinia vaccination. Basically, last I heard the small pox immunization was not being produced in the USA. There was a report today that DOD has ordered supplies from UK. Frankly, I don't know how the UK could be producing the vaccine. The only known stockpiles of the virus (after World Health Organization/UN announced eradication of the virus from Earth) were in the US and USSR. If a UK company is making vaccine, what is in the vaccine?

The old vaccine was produced using techniques that would not be licensed or approved today. So, the stockpile doesn't meet current specs. Also, my info was that the stockpile is about 20 years old.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not about to use 20-year-old vaccine in my practice without knowing that the vaccine was needed. I certainly would not use it in our children, unless I was convinced that a threat exists.

I do have the scar from the smallpox vaccine on my arm. My doctor gave it to me in the late 1970's. So, I feel a certain measure of comfort from that knowledge. However, it is important to note that the immunologic effect of the vaccine wanes (decreases) over the years.

Talking-heads on CNN et al have been stating that those who received the vaccine may not be immune. Well, I would like to point out to those @%^*!s that the original small pox vaccine was a LIVE VIRUS. That's why your skin ended up with welts, sores, and then scarred for life. The Japanese used the Oka Chicken Pox Vaccine for 20 years before the US gov't finally got it released to our nation. Have the Japanese seen any waning immunity from Oka Varicella Zoster Vaccine (the chickenpox vaccine)? NO! Yet, there are still idiot talking-heads who are PAID to show up on some news program and to spout incorrect info that the OkaVZV vaccine has concerns about waning immunity. ACCORDING TO WHOM?

The FDA can find an answer to the question of waning smallpox immunity real fast. THOMPSON NEEDS TO TELL CDC TO COMMISSION A FOLLOW-UP STUDY ON THE OLD SMALLPOX IMMUNIZATION. Have CDC draw serum samples on our generation of kids (who got the vaccine when we were young and are now consenting adults). Confirm when the patient received the vaccine and check the sample for any antibodies to smallpox. If you find IgG antibodies (assuming we know how to locate such antibodies, which I can not vouch for), then you will know if boosters are needed in previously immunized individuals.

Vaccinia Vaccine

Vaccinia (smallpox) vaccine, a licensed product, is a preparation of infectious vaccinia virus whose origin and manipulation is FDA approved. The vaccinia is grown in the skin of a vaccinated bovine calf (2). In 1982, the only active licensed producer of vaccinia vaccine in the United States, Wyeth Laboratories, discontinued production for general use, and, in 1983, distribution to the civilian population was discontinued. Smallpox vaccination has not been required for international travelers since January 1982, and International Certificates of Vaccination no longer include smallpox vaccination.

CDC provides vaccinia vaccine for laboratory workers directly involved with smallpox or closely related orthopox viruses (e.g., monkeypox and vaccinia). Due to clinical trials involving recombinant vaccinia virus vaccines, health-care workers (e.g., physicians and nurses) may now be exposed to vaccinia and recombinant vaccinia viruses and should be considered for vaccinia vaccination (6).

There is no evidence that smallpox vaccination has any therapeutic value in the treatment or prevention of recurrent herpes simplex infection, warts, oral thrush, or any other diseases (6). Requests for smallpox vaccine for these unapproved uses cannot be granted.


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Comments or questions appreciated. God bless the USA!
1 posted on 10/21/2001 10:33:10 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
I do have the scar from the smallpox vaccine on my arm. My doctor gave it to me in the late 1970's. So, I feel a certain measure of comfort from that knowledge. However, it is important to note that the immunologic effect of the vaccine wanes (decreases) over the years. Talking-heads on CNN et al have been stating that those who received the vaccine may not be immune. Well, I would like to point out to those @%^*!s that the original small pox vaccine was a LIVE VIRUS. That's why your skin ended up with welts, sores, and then scarred for life.

This gets to what I've been wondering about. Say you were born in the late 50s, and your parents dutifully had you vaccinated according to school system and federal guidelines. Would you have been vaccinated, even though you can't remember, and have no way to ask the parents? And, the vaccination that left a 1/2 to 3/4 inch blotch scar... was that for smallpox, or polio?


Socialists in Congress? Click on the zeppelin, Grasshopper.

2 posted on 10/21/2001 10:41:04 PM PDT by EdZep
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To: EdZep
That scar is the remnant of the smallpox vaccine, not the Salk Polio vaccine. I think the talking morons on CNN (who fear monger us with worries about being totally vulnerable to Vaccinia virus) are doing our nation a real disservice. Clymer isn't the only Class A now. We got a room full of them around Aaron Brown at CNN. What a bunch of idiots!
3 posted on 10/21/2001 10:43:31 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
Are you a doctor?
4 posted on 10/21/2001 10:44:19 PM PDT by AmericanGurl
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To: bonesmccoy
Edward Jenner discovered the process of vaccination by observing that milk maids never got smallpox. His investigarions led him to discover that a prior case of cowpox was the source of the immunity. Cowpox was the original smallpox vaccine.

I wondered if it is still around, so I made a request to some rancher friends that they ask their local vet. If I find out, I will surely inform.

5 posted on 10/21/2001 10:45:09 PM PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: EdZep
Salk polio vac was a shot, no scar, Sabin polio vac was oral. Small pox vac left 1/2 to 3/4 inch round scars, usually administered to left deltoid muscle.
6 posted on 10/21/2001 10:46:50 PM PDT by enigma
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To: bonesmccoy
I understand that the vaccinia vaccine is still around, still given, the CDC only has 15 million right now. I would much rather see my kids with one scar than thousands (if they're lucky and don't die) from smallpox so it's worth that risk to me. If smallpox does break out, I'll start looking for at least one dose of the vaccine if I have to go to Mexico to find it, or else I'll find someone who will share their blister and I'll vaccinate my kids and myself on my own from it. It's a live virus so there is that ability we have to do that.
7 posted on 10/21/2001 10:49:16 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: bonesmccoy
Wow, you were vaccinated in the LATE 70s??? I was part of the first generation NOT to be vaccinated and I was born in 1969. My doc recommended I not be vaccinated because the threat was so minimal from the disease that (at the time) vaccination was a bigger risk than contracting the disease.

Thanks for posting useful and intelligent info on this. Vaccinations work; you cannot rely on herd immunity, especially in a very mobile, world-travelling society.

8 posted on 10/21/2001 10:49:32 PM PDT by austinTparty
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To: the_doc
FYI
9 posted on 10/21/2001 10:49:37 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: bonesmccoy
Oh, and welcome to FR!
10 posted on 10/21/2001 10:49:56 PM PDT by austinTparty
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To: bonesmccoy
Smallpox Vaccines Take the Spotlight After Years of Neglect; Companies Saw No Profit

Published: Oct 22, 2001

NEW YORK (AP) - In the highly profitable pharmaceutical business, vaccines have long been the low-rent cousin - never matching the profits or prominence of medicines.

That has changed significantly since Sept. 11. Now vaccines have got the attention, but it's unclear if dollars will follow.

New fears of bio-terrorism have led the government to announce it wants to purchase 300 million doses of smallpox vaccine, enough to inoculate every American against the deadly disease.

Many drug makers have shied away from making vaccines in the past; vaccines can be as costly as drugs to develop, but don't offer the same returns.

When the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was seeking a firm to manufacture smallpox vaccine last year, it was spurned by major drug companies, and the $343 million contract for 40 million doses fell to a previously obscure British firm, Acambis.

Now more drug companies are offering their services, and the government said it would spend $509 million on additional doses. But that's hardly a windfall in an industry where sales are expected to reach $178 billion this year, according estimates by the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America.

The United States has 15 million doses of smallpox vaccine, and has ordered an additional 14 million from Acambis, on top of the original 40 million. The company now expects to have its first doses ready by 2002, two years earlier than originally planned.

But experts say much more is needed. In the wake of recent anthrax cases, concerns have grown about security at the Russian lab that has one of the two remaining smallpox virus samples.

"We couldn't contain an outbreak" said GiGi Kwik, a fellow at the John Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Studies.

A smallpox epidemic would be much worse than an anthrax outbreak, because smallpox is contagious and more deadly than anthrax. Roughly 30 percent of those who contract smallpox die. A large portion of the U.S. population has never been vaccinated and no one knows if those inoculated have retained their immunity.

Smallpox vaccination stopped in the United States in 1972, and the disease was eradicated by 1980. That meant many major pharmaceutical companies stopped producing the vaccine because it wasn't considered a major public health threat, and no market was foreseen.

Other factors also kept drug companies from making vaccines for smallpox or other bio-terrorist threats such as Ebola.

Lehman Brothers analyst Tony Butler estimates the gross margin on a drug is about 90 percent compared to 70 percent to 80 percent for a vaccine. Drugs also generate more sales - medicines are often taken two and three times daily for years. Vaccines are typically given one to five times over a lifetime.

Butler said it's difficult for vaccine developers to choose promising candidates. Companies must determine if the demand for a vaccine is great enough, or if the affected population could afford the treatment. The same is true for drugs, but medicines are given to sick people while vaccines are given to healthy people.

"You know who should get a cancer drug, but who should really get the vaccine?" asked Butler.

In addition, vaccines can have side effects that pose risk of litigation. Experts say if healthy people get sick after taking a vaccine they are much more likely to win juror sympathy than a sick person developing complications from a drug.

Lawsuits by parents who assert their children were hurt by vaccines were so widespread that in 1988 the government set up the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program to handle the complaints.

"When an individual is sick and seeks treatment there is a certain amount of risk associated with the treatment. The risk assessment is totally different with a healthy person," said Dr. Adel Mahmoud, president of Merck & Co.'s vaccine division.

Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., is working on a massive bioterrorism package worth $5 billion to $10 billion. That includes money to hasten vaccine production and ease antitrust restrictions for drug companies.

"There is just so much to do," said Kwik. "There was not a real interest in this because there was no market. My impression is that the drug companies don't do anything unless there is a profit."

But others have a more optimistic view. Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sunday that the government could have enough vaccine for everyone in the nation within six to 12 months.

11 posted on 10/21/2001 10:51:58 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: bonesmccoy
I don't know about you guys, but I'm not about to use 20-year-old vaccine in my practice without knowing that the vaccine was needed. I certainly would not use it in our children, unless I was convinced that a threat exists.

No one asked you. Whatever vaccine is given won't be "20 years old" and there is a threat.

I do have the scar from the smallpox vaccine on my arm. My doctor gave it to me in the late 1970's

The routine vaccination was ended in aro9und 1972. What are you doing getting it in the late 70's. I think small pox immunization should begin again. Maybe it will not be used. But if it is, staring immunization after that will be too late for the first to get it.

12 posted on 10/21/2001 10:52:36 PM PDT by tallhappy
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To: bonesmccoy
Thanks for the new thread and this info.
13 posted on 10/21/2001 10:53:05 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Carry_Okie
The CDC does have the vaccinia vaccine, they still allow people working in animal research to get smallpox vaccinations because it also protects against monkeypox and others they might encounter. The danger in it is that immune compromised people can't always handle vaccinia infections, but they won't handle smallpox either and the best thing would be to allow everyone who wants it to have it, then those who can't or won't are also safer.
14 posted on 10/21/2001 10:53:06 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: bonesmccoy
I do have the scar from the smallpox vaccine on my arm. My doctor gave it to me in the late 1970's. So, I feel a certain measure of comfort from that knowledge. However, it is important to note that the immunologic effect of the vaccine wanes (decreases) over the years.

Mine was well before the 70's (that is when my kids got theirs..)But because it was a live virus I suspect all of us that had the vaccine have "some level" of immunity..maybe enought that we will just look like monsters but live through it..let the kids get it first..work from birth up..seems the fairest way!

Personally with a 30% death rate Smallpox worries me much less than Eboli...

15 posted on 10/21/2001 10:54:07 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: proud2bRC
The sign says "no profanity". So, I'll refrain. Thanks for the link and article. The more we work together on these things, the better off we'll be. At least the CDC did something about this problem last year. The way the FDA was working the Anthrax vaccine line during the end of the Clinton Admin, you'd think they were on a coffee break.
16 posted on 10/21/2001 10:54:58 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: Carry_Okie
The Demon in the Freezer [Small Pox]

An interesting read, albeit rather long. Explains where and how much small pox vaccine there is in the U.S.

17 posted on 10/21/2001 10:55:19 PM PDT by rainingred
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To: tallhappy
I want my kids to get it ASAP, I saw that the CDC put smallpox back on the list of reportable diseases back in June of this year. The reason the scar was put on the arm when they did the vaccinations before is because the government decided it wanted to easily see who had been vaccinated, the shot can be in other places.
18 posted on 10/21/2001 10:55:34 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: EdZep
The scar is a fond memory of your smallpox vaccine..a scratch then a drop of live virus..Polio was an injection for you me would think..oral was 60"s
19 posted on 10/21/2001 10:56:09 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: bonesmccoy
I don't have a real good handle on this issue, however, two things come to mind. First of all, the company that was supposed to be making the smallpox vaccinations has not made any since it was established to do so. I think it might have been contracted to do so and has not kept up with its end of the bargain.

I just heard the other day that the government was talking to Merck about doing so. I am stating this as a bit of recalled memory that I in no way wish to be taken as authoritive.

20 posted on 10/21/2001 10:56:10 PM PDT by MistyCA
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To: austinTparty
That's weird. I was born in late '67. My brother was born in March '66, and he has the scar, but I don't - because they must have discontinued it at that time.
21 posted on 10/21/2001 10:56:15 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: austinTparty
When was the first year the smallpox vaccine was not required?

Just looked in the mirror, and don't have any scars, could someone have been vaccinated and not gotten a scar?

22 posted on 10/21/2001 10:56:22 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: bonesmccoy
Ok .. not that I have any idea of what I am talking about .. BUT two things here jumped out at me ..

1)..There was a report today that DOD has ordered supplies from UK. Frankly, I don't know how the UK could be producing the vaccine. The only known stockpiles of the virus (after World Health Organization/UN announced eradication of the virus from Earth) were in the US and USSR. If a UK company is making vaccine, what is in the vaccine?

AND

2)Vaccinia (smallpox) vaccine, a licensed product, is a preparation of infectious vaccinia virus whose origin and manipulation is FDA approved. The vaccinia is grown in the skin of a vaccinated bovine calf (2).

UK ??? ... Calves ???
didn't they just have problems over there with these animals??? and will that now be a problem making the vaccine???

23 posted on 10/21/2001 10:57:50 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: bonesmccoy
You don't need smallpox to make the vaccine; vaccines made of cowpox will work. (That's how the preventative vaccine was discovered- milkmaids had an immunity to smallpox since they had been exposed to cowpox. )
24 posted on 10/21/2001 10:58:31 PM PDT by piasa
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To: FITZ
How would "finding a blister to share" immunize a person?

I have tons of questions about this subject, sorry. I have a toddler who underwent a kidney transplant/reimplement, does that make her immuno deficient or whatever its called?

25 posted on 10/21/2001 10:59:12 PM PDT by AmericanGurl
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To: bonesmccoy
" don't know how the UK could be producing the vaccine. The only known stockpiles of the virus ... were in the US and USSR..."

My understanding is that the vacine was not based on smallpox but on a cousin to it, cowpox. Vacca is latin for cow.

26 posted on 10/21/2001 10:59:12 PM PDT by TheLooseThread
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To: AmericanGurl
Are you a doctor?

He plays one on TV. ; )

27 posted on 10/21/2001 11:01:06 PM PDT by piasa
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To: Mo1
They don't need the smallpox virus to make the smallpox vaccine, it's a different but related pox virus so a vaccinia infection (which is what the vaccine gives you) provides cross immunity with smallpox and monkeypox and some others.

I'm not scared because the nice thing about vaccinia being a real infection is it too can be easily spread and we wouldn't really have to panic over them running out.

28 posted on 10/21/2001 11:01:42 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: mystomachisturning
First of all, the company that was supposed to be making the smallpox vaccinations has not made any since it was established to do so.

Sounds like quite a coincidence, since the company that makes anthrax vaccine was reportedly bought a few years back, and has not produced any more vaccines, in spite of military contracts to do so. (Info from another recent FR thread.)


Socialists in Congress? Click on the zeppelin, Grasshopper.

29 posted on 10/21/2001 11:02:09 PM PDT by EdZep
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To: piasa
no he stayed at a holiday inn last night.
30 posted on 10/21/2001 11:06:09 PM PDT by KQQL
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To: AmericanGurl
You can infect other people either on purpose or inadvertantly from a smallpox vaccine blister. Your baby is probably on some kind of cyclosporin or something to suppress the immune system and purposely infecting your baby would not be safe. I would do it to my own kids just like I took them to be exposed to chicken pox. Your baby should be immunized carefully and slowly with very careful doses of vaccine. The vaccinia infection normally causes at most a few blisters which can leave scars, but in someone with lowered immunity, it can be a worse infection, not life threatening but you wouldn't want to risk bad scarring.
31 posted on 10/21/2001 11:06:19 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Carry_Okie
http://aepo-xdv-www.epo.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/p0000205/p0000205.asp

for legacy info on the old Vaccinia vaccine.
32 posted on 10/21/2001 11:11:24 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: piasa
"Are you a doctor?…..He plays one on TV."

You mean he's not for real? I was wondering why he had that weird smile on his face when he asked me to turn my head and cough. I wish you told me that earlier.

33 posted on 10/21/2001 11:13:06 PM PDT by Scuttlebutt
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To: FITZ
Hi Fitz, I hear you loud and clear. My current understanding is that the President has to order the CDC to alter the current federal policy (restricting distribution of these vaccines). This all goes to show how centralized Klinton-era healthcare has clearly imperiled our entire nation. If the free-market had a chance to work and Clinton didn't attempt to LIMIT our ability to deliver these medicines, then I should be able to order the vaccine and administer it to your children. But, Hillary is still a Senator. Do I sound upset? Darn right I am!
34 posted on 10/21/2001 11:14:10 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: FITZ
Oh I'm not in a panic .. just trying to educate myself that's all ... so much stuff out there and I'm just trying to weed thru it all

And yes the MEDIA is doing a GREAT job at scaring people .. which IMO will only do more harm then good ..

Educate people yes .. but I wish they would stop scaring the sh!t out of people ..

35 posted on 10/21/2001 11:14:57 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: austinTparty
Agreed. My doctor was smart. Today, he's in ailing health, but he correctly chose to give me the shot (i was born in the late 1960's like you). So, I should still have some immunity (if exposed, I expect to get ill but recover).
36 posted on 10/21/2001 11:15:44 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: RnMomof7; bonesmccoy; enigma
Thanks for the info.


Socialists in Congress? Click on the zeppelin, Grasshopper.

37 posted on 10/21/2001 11:15:52 PM PDT by EdZep
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To: EdZep
I very well may have confused that info so please disregard my prior post until I research it further. Sorry....I may have misstated.....other words for having had a brain farct! :)
38 posted on 10/21/2001 11:16:02 PM PDT by MistyCA
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To: FITZ
Incorrect. You are neither a physician or a nurse. Please refrain from spreading disinformation regarding the vaccine. Thanks.
39 posted on 10/21/2001 11:18:01 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
Thank you for your mail. I understand if you can't answer me back for professional reasons. :O)

I think I need to place a few calls.

40 posted on 10/21/2001 11:18:52 PM PDT by AmericanGurl
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To: bonesmccoy
Yes I'm also frustrated with the tight control over vaccines, and yet almost forced vaccines which aren't really needed. They're saying they might have enough by summer which could be far too late if smallpox spreads like colds, flus, or chickenpoxes do. But since there are some vaccines around, and also some in countries like Mexico, I trust in the the black market because all we need is a live vaccinia virus, taking one off an otherwise healthy person is no worse than blood transfusions or catching a cold from someone.
41 posted on 10/21/2001 11:20:19 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Mo1
more profanity from my mouth deleted. good observation! You guys are phenomenal! The only thing that is believed to kill CJD slow virus is formaldehyde. Most major hospitals soak equipment in formaldehyde and then autoclave. Autoclaving doesn't appear to kill the factor responsible for CJD. I've wondered if the mad cox problems are actually agroterrorism.
42 posted on 10/21/2001 11:21:00 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
(i was born in the late 1960's like you). So, I should still have some immunity (if exposed, I expect to get ill but recover).

Back to questions: So, how much immunity would someone 10 years older have? Does this get back to perported "strength" of live virus in early vaccines?


Socialists in Congress? Click on the zeppelin, Grasshopper.

43 posted on 10/21/2001 11:21:20 PM PDT by EdZep
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To: bonesmccoy
What disinformation? I refer to the CDC site directly. Besides my own immunology books and courses I took.
44 posted on 10/21/2001 11:21:50 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: FITZ
up to you... i won't use a vaccine unless it's MADE IN THE USA! God bless!
45 posted on 10/21/2001 11:23:10 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
Doc, I honestly think I had more medical training than you when I was playing "doctor and nurse" with the girl next door as a youngster.
46 posted on 10/21/2001 11:24:53 PM PDT by Scuttlebutt
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To: bonesmccoy
FOFL ... I have NO IDEA what you just said .. but hey .. it sounded good ..
47 posted on 10/21/2001 11:26:10 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: Mo1
UK ??? ... Calves ??? didn't they just have problems over there with these animals??? and will that now be a problem making the vaccine???

Good thought..save a generation from smallpox with a 30% death rate so their brains can become swiss cheese at middle age.

48 posted on 10/21/2001 11:26:45 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: bonesmccoy
Thanks for the info. I have a question.

Are you concerned (or anyone at the CDC) about the possibility that British smallpox vaccines involving bovine cultures could be tainted with CJD? Sounds almost scarier than smallpox.

49 posted on 10/21/2001 11:26:53 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: bonesmccoy
The vaccines given to Mexico are made in the USA: The USA does have them, they are only available from the CDC---which provides them to Mexico. I would go there for the vaccine if I couldn't get it here, no one creates the vaccinia, it is a naturally occuring virus which causes a real infection, not all that hard to reproduce on the right host, they just create the dosage and whatever they add to it.
50 posted on 10/21/2001 11:27:57 PM PDT by FITZ
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