Why are WTC deaths estimate so low?

Given the statements by CNN and other (probably more reliable sources) that between 40,000 and 50,000 souls worked in the Towers and something like 140,000 visitors were there on any given day.........why is the estimate of deceased victims around 5000?

Is there any reason to avoid assuming that a lot more people died on September 11?

Why would the media and the government understate the posssible list of victims?

Why would the media and the government understate the posssible list of victims?

Some of the factors might be: it was still early, there may have been many more people there a few hours later. Also, many people hit the stair wells and got out before the buildings collapsed.

For all the complaints about how badly the WTC fared after the impacts, the truth is that it stayed up for about an hour which was enough time for a large number of people to escape.

The reason the death estimates are so low is because the number of firefighter, police, EMT, Port Authority deaths are so high.

A lot of people escaped death that day. We all owe those brave men and women a debt of gratitude that should last for centuries. Every American, except Hillary and her followers, calls those who died and those who survived heros for that very reason.

I wondered that at first.

What happened is most people had time to run away and not be killed.

I think that it was before 9 AM when the first attack occurred helped as well.

Not everyone is at work by then and the bulk visitor hours hadn't occurred.

When the first plane hit, everyone evacuated. The second lane didn't hit for a while, and then after that it was a while for the towers to collapse.

and if the towers did not fall, the death toll would have been limited to those immediately in the path of the plane and flames.

Everyone five floors below the impact points had plenty of time to evacuate.

Thanks to the evacuation plans drawn up after the last bombing, there were excellent procedures in place, that were executed under horrific conditions.

Also, the buildings held up amazingly well, given what they endured, giving people the minutes they needed to get clear.

Jim, Why are you trying to sound like Michael Rivero?

Many started evacuating both buildings at the first plane impact. So most below the impact floors were able to escape.

I suspect a good number of service people were undocumented and their families are afraid to come forward. Considering the size and scope of the buildings that fell there would have to be hundreds and hundreds of service folk lost. The wait staff at the Windows on the World where a breakfast meeting was about to begin probably had dozens of people working there. Pray for all those lost that day, both here in NY and the Pentagon. And for those heroes on Flight #93

It was also 9am, instead of 1pm..

One reason was due to the fact that the observation deck did not open until 10:00 AM. As a result, very few, if any, tourists were in the building at the time of the attacks.

The initial plane hit would have only taken out, perhaps a few hundred. From that point all offices below hightailed it out, and the other tower started leaving as well. After the second plane, all lower offices in both towers were getting out as fast as possible. Remember they had about an hour, if I recall correctly to get out.

I think that it was before 9 AM when the first attack occurred helped as well. Not everyone is at work by then and the bulk visitor hours hadn't occurred.

As a New Yorker, I can tell you that, by and large, New York businesses open later in the morning, and stay later in the evening, than comparable businesses in other cities. I'm a lawyer; when I deal with lawyers in other cities, I find that they're typically at work by 8 or 8:30 AM. Every New York law firm I know of opens at 9:30. If the attacks were an hour later, the death toll would have been higher.

All of the above are very good reasons, but one fact not normally discussed,
is the number of non-U.S.citizens afraid to come forward for fear of deportation.
It maybe not be a large number could, have some impact. Or it could be an urban legend.

I LIKE BUSH

Let's Roll

There are over 5,000 dead, that we were told of, leaving 15,000 orphans. The undocumented most certainly haven't been counted.

KIM they had an hour to evacuate the buildings. If they hadn't sent the South Tower people back to their desks, a lot more would have been saved. If there was any building in the world that knows evacuation procedures, it was the WTC. The only "goners" should have been those in the high floors of the North Tower.

I've never seen a list of estimated dead, only the number reported missing. There's a difference.

NYC officials admit they have no way of knowing exactly how many people died in the WTC. It could be a lot more than the 5,000 or so reported missing.

I don't know where you get your "140,000 visitors". I've never seen that number anywhere.

Even if true, that would be people moving in and out of the buildings during the course of the day, not a fixed number.

Today the numbers were adjusted downward again because many people were counted twice for various reasons.

If the planes had struck a couple of hours later when all stragglers were in their offices, the numbers would have probably been higher, but why does everything have to be a breathy conspiracy?

It's a conspiracy by Alcoa to increase tinfoil sales, I tells ya.

An estimated 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center, and another 140,000 visited the complex daily.

The first plane hit the north tower at 8:45 AM. The second plane hit the south tower at 9:05 AM. This was the beginning of the work day and many workers had not reported to work. Also many people on the lower floors probably got out.

The observation deck on top of the south tower did not open until 9:30, so no tourists were on the observation deck.

If the planes had hit at around 11:00 AM, the loss of life, IMHO, would have been much greater, due to everybody showing up to work, the lunch hour just beginning, and the tourists on the observation deck.

The first tower hit lasted more than and hour
When the second tower was hit it was clear to everyone they needed to get out
Although the second tower was hit lower, it was off center and some people above the hit were able to escape.
The mall in the basement was not scheduled to open until 10:00 am
Many people in NY do not show up for work until after 9:00. My son was on his way (working a couple blocks away)
Many CEOs and high muckity mucks moved their offices out of the WTC after the first bombing. There were never 50,00 people working there at one time.
Tourists -- who would have added another 10,000 -- were not there at 9:00
We are no longer dealing in estimates. The dead are known and named.

The people below the points of impact on each tower had at least an hour to make it to safety. The people in the impacted floors died immediately, the people in the floors above had the choice of jumping to their deaths or being burned alive.

In other words, most of the people in the buildings would have been able to escape. This, coupled with the fact that it was early and not everyone had arrived yet explains why there were only 5,000 deaths instead of 50,000.

and if the towers did not fall, the death toll would have been limited to those immediately in the path of the plane and flames.

Have you seen any evidence that they were anywhere near getting the fire under control? If not, some lives might have been saved among those who were making their way down but a majority of the people above the fires still would have died.

I would, of course, have preferred that the towers didn't collapse. I'm simply saying that they didn't collapse immediately, either. If they had, the death toll would have been substantially higher. I personally suspect that the pilot of the second plane to hit was surprised to see the first tower on first but standing. My guess is that they thought they could bring them down much more quickly.

A couple of factors I can think of. First, most people in the Towers had sufficient time to evacuate (including my father, who was visiting the 44th floor of the North Tower and caught a glimpse of the plane approaching). Second, although many people in NYC arrive to work very early (often to avoid commuting during rush hour), on the whole the City starts late. I know several people who were on their way to work when the first plane struck and turned around and went home.

I was predicting 15,000 to 20,000 dead because my father reported that the evacuation on his floor got off to a late start. It appeared to be a small plane (because it was approaching so fast) and no warning lights or evacuation signals went off. People waited around for about fifteen minutes until they smelled smoke and decided to make the descent. My father left my mother a message after the first plane struck to say he was okay. Then we didn't hear from him again for almost four hours. When I saw the footage of the towers collapsing I was almost positive he was dead because I didn't think there was enough time for him to escape. Fortunately I was wrong.

Finally, credit has to go to police, fire and security personnel and other heroes who assisted in the evacuation. My dad passed at least 20 of them on his way down. They were on their way up. May they rest in peace.

I've wondered about that also and truly believed there would be a lot more and still think there is that strong possibility. I'll be thrilled to be wrong on this one!

"Why are WTC deaths estimate so low?"

Bump up the figure by at least 4.5% because we know that many were most likely illegal aliens based on the theory of probability (13 miilion in a population of 286 million).

God

I'm guessing 20 to 30 seconds per floor, on average, to descend a single flight of stairs, or 1/3 to 1/2 of a minute, assuming traffic continued to flow.

Someone at floor 100, therefore, might've gotten out and clear in about 35-50 minutes.

God

About a week or so after the terror, I read where the NY authorities were perplexed because of so few people reporting missing loved ones. Later, they started wwith the "undocumented workers", foreigners, etc. I don't believe we'll ever have an accurate number.

Why on earth did you post that eye-numbing tenant list?

Thanks to all.

One can usually find a reasoned, well informed and courteous response on FR to questions and comments.

And then there are the cactmhs....who the heck is Michael Rivero?

Does THIS help?

I still do not know what the figures mean - world wide employees perhaps?

Building: 1 World Trade Center - North Tower

Tenant SF Leased Industry Floor Alan Anthony N/A

Business Services Royal Thai Embassy Office N/A

Government NY Coffee Station N/A Tes USA, Inc. 400

Financial Institutions Strawberry 7,106

Retailers/Wholesalers CNCR Ann Taylor Loft 7,200

CNCR Delta Airlines 400

Transportation LBBY Olympia Airport Express N/A

LBBY Avis N/A

LBBY Port Authority of New York & New Jersey 22,411

Government 3,14,19,24,28,31

Geiger & Geiger 1,588

Law Firms 4,25,78 Gayer, Shyu & Wiesel 800

Accountants 5 Thai Farmers Bank 4,512

Financial Institutions 7 Amerson Group Co., Inc. N/A

Personal Services 8 Bank of America 132,586

Financial Institutions 9-11,81 Porcella Vicini & Co. 2,200

Transportation 11 Primarch Decision Economics 4,954

Business Services 11 Instinet, Inc. 65,844

Financial Institutions 13,14 Dun & Bradstreet, Inc. 22,750

Personal Services 14 Landmark Education Corporation 44,407

Personal Services 15 Zim-American Israeli Shipping Co. 10,000

Transportation 17 Empire Health Choice 461,000

Insurance 17,19,20,23,24,27-31 Tower Computer Service 585

Retailers/Wholesalers 21,29 United Seamen's Service AMMLA 2,400

Personal Services 21 United Hercules Inc. 10,000

Transportation 21 Avesta Computer Services, Ltd. 1,464

Computers/Data Processing 21 Continental Logistics, Inc. 734

Personal Services 21 Dongwon Securities Co. Ltd. 1,171

Financial Institutions 21 Dr. Tadasu Tokumaru, M.D. 520

Medical 21 Friends Villas Fischer Trust N/A

Financial Institutions 21 Friends Ivory & Sime, Inc. 13,262

Financial Institutions 21 Infotech 1,400

21 Law Offices of Roman V. Popik 586

Law Firms 21 Lief International USA 3,100

Manufacturing 21 Unicom Capital Advisors LLP 5,483

Financial Institutions 22,84 Chicago Options Exchange Corp. 3,608

Financial Institutions 22 Cheng Xiang Trading USA Inc. 1,900

Computers/Data Processing 22 G.C. Services 2,561

Financial Institutions 22 Gold Sky Inc. 421

Manufacturing 22 Kaiser Overseas Inc. 265

Manufacturing 22 Karoon Capital Management 991

Financial Institutions 22 MLU Investment 1,175

22 P. Wolfe Consultants 2,165

Business Services 22 The SCPIE Companies 2,582

22 Tai Fook Securities 1,500

Financial Institutions 22 R.H. Wrightson & Associates, Inc. N/A

Financial Institutions 25 Garban-Intercapital 60,548

Financial Institutions 25,26 China Patent & Trademark USA 400

Law Firms 29 World Travel 25,000

Transportation 29 Banco LatinoAmericano de 3,000

Financial Institutions 32 Chang HWA Commercial Bank 12,182

Financial Institutions 32 Rohde & Liesenfeld, Inc. 5,000

Transportation 32 Berel & Mullen 2,786

Law Firms 33 China Daily Distribution Corp. 800

Personal Services 33 Data Transmission Network Corp. 342

33 Golden King (USA) Limited 190

Transportation 33 Hu Tong International (USA) Co., Ltd. 583

Retailers/Wholesalers 33 Koudis International Inc. 600

Transportation 33 MANAA Trading Group, Inc. 1,013

Financial Institutions 33 MIS Service Co. 2,000

33 Rachel & Associates, Inc. 814

Manufacturing 33 Serko & Simon 8,605

Law Firms 33 Anne Pope, Law Offices of N/A

Law Firms 35 Kemper Insurance Companies 92,232

Insurance 35,36 Commodity Futures Trading Commission 35,000

Financial Institutions 37 Government of Thailand 5,109

37 Lehman Brothers 45,100

38-40 Regional Alliance Small 1,692

Business Services 38 Turner Construction Company 1,000

Agri/Mining/Utilities 38 The Cultural Institutions Retirement Systems 5,416

Financial Institutions 39 Overseas Union Bank, Ltd. 3,750

Financial Institutions 39 Xcel Federal Credit Union 4,200

Financial Institutions 39 Mechanical Floor N/A 41-43 N.Y. Society of Security 3,000

Government 44 American Lota International 626

Transportation 45 China Construction America, Inc. 2,000

Business Services 45 The Company Store 800

Retailers/Wholesalers 45 Dunavant Commodity Corp 1,437

Financial Institutions 45 Employee Merit 763

Business Services 45 Fertitta Enterprises 600

45 M.A. Katz, CPA 400

Accountants 45 SRA 1,000

45 Pure Energy Corp. 5,935

Retailers/Wholesalers 45,53 Sassoons Inc. 1,000

45 Security Traders Association, Inc. 1,520

Personal Services 45 Streamline Capital, LLC 2,024

45 ASTDC, Inc. 3,760

Personal Services 46 Auto Imperial Co. 374

Retailers/Wholesalers 46 Blue Sky Technologies, Inc. 350

Computers/Data Processing 46 Can-Achieve 392

Business Services 46 Consolidated Steelex Corp. 2,277

Manufacturing 46 Dahao USA Corp N/A

Retailers/Wholesalers 46 J & X Tans International 338

Transportation 46 Kanebo Information Systems Corp. 800

Computers/Data Processing 46 Meganet Management Consultants, Inc. 600

Computers/Data Processing 46 Prospect International, Inc. 966

46 Sinopec USA, Inc. 4,584

Retailers/Wholesalers 46 Suggested Open Systems, Inc. 600

Computers/Data Processing 46 Suntendy America, Inc. 1,000

Retailers/Wholesalers 46 T&T Enterprises International, Inc. 1,006

Financial Institutions 46 Yong Ren America, Inc. 394 46 G. Z. Stephens, Inc. 1,200

Business Services 47 NFA/GGG, Inc. 2,053 47 American TCC Int'l Group, Inc. 5,736

Financial Institutions 47,90 Pacific American Co. 4,753

Retailers/Wholesalers 47 Quint Amasis, L.L.C. 1,000

Personal Services 47 W.J. Export-Import, Inc. 800

Retailers/Wholesalers 47 Dai-Ichi Kangyo Trust Co. 100,000

Financial Institutions 48-50 AT&T Corporation 11,612

Communications 51 C & P Press N/A

Personal Services 51 TradeWeb N/A

Online trading 51 The Williams Capital Group 578

52 Bramax Manufacturing (USA) Corp. 800

Retailers/Wholesalers 52 Gayer Shyu & Wiesel N/A

Financial Institutions 52 Hill Betts & Nash, LLP 21,609

Law Firms 52 Temenos USA, Inc. 6,000

Retailers/Wholesalers 52,84 Howly (US) Corporation 1,150

52 Leeds & Morrelli 1,617

Law Firms 52 Okasan International (American) Inc. 2,250

Financial Institutions 52 RGL Gallagher PC 984

Accountants 52 Richard A. Zimmerman, Esq. 1,150

Law Firms 52 A I G Aviation Brokerage, Inc. 2,500

Insurance 53 Bank of Taiwan 7,500

Financial Institutions 53 China Resource Products USA Ltd. N/A

53 Keenan Powers & Andrews 4,500

Law Firms 53 LoCurto & Funk, Inc. N/A

Financial Institutions 53 Natural Nydegger Transport Corp. 3,500

Transportation 53 Pacrim Trading & Shipping, Inc. 1,200

Transportation 53 Brown & Wood, L.L.P. 223,100

Law Firms 54,56-59 Pace University 45,943

Personal Services 55 World Trade Institute N/A

55 Asahi Bank, Ltd. 40,000

Financial Institutions 60 Airport Access Program N/A

Financial Institutions 63 Hal Roth Agency, Inc. 2,250

Insurance 77 Jun He Law Office, LLC 894

Law Firms 77 Martin Progressive LLC 13,789

Computers/Data Processing 77 New-ey International Corp. 894

Personal Services 77 Partner Reinsurance Corp. N/A

Insurance 77 World Trade Centers Association 5,400

Personal Services 77 Avenir, Inc. 2,162

Computers/Data Processing 78 Baltic Oil Corporation 981

78 Cedar Capital Management Associates 909

78 Cheng Cheng Enterprises Holding Inc. 4,073

Retailers/Wholesalers 78 Hyundai Securities Co., Ltd. 1,600

Financial Institutions 78 International Trade Center, Inc. 3,298

Business Services 78 Korea Local Authorities 1,000

Government 78 Meridian Ventures Holding, Inc. 3,315

78 Phink Path 1,214

Business Services 78 Traders Access Center 1,027

Financial Institutions 78 Daynard & Van Thunen Co. 4,750

Insurance 79 First Liberty Investment Group 1,000

Financial Institutions 79 International Office Centers 26,367

Personal Services 79 Nikko Securities 9,340

Financial Institutions 79 Okato Shoji Company, Ltd. 2,729

Computers/Data Processing 79 Securant Technologies 2,729

Computers/Data Processing 79 Agricor Commodities Corp. 3,200

Financial Institutions 80 The Beast.Comm 21,000

Computers/Data Processing 80 Intrust Investment Realty, Inc. 3,320

80 Noga Commodities Overseas, Inc. 6,518

Financial Institutions 80 RLI Insurance Company 3,900

Insurance 80 Shizuoka Bank Ltd. 2,200

Financial Institutions 80 New Continental Enterprises 2,055

Transportation 81 Network Plus 8,500

Communications 81 NY Metro Transportation Council 7,000

Government 82 General Telecommunications 8,994

83 Global Crossings Holdings Ltd. N/A

Computers/Data Processing 83 Lava Trading, LLC 7,589

83 Taipei Bank 12,111

Financial Institutions 83 eMeritus Communications 7,203

Communications 83 Bright China Capital, Ltd. 2,016

Financial Institutions 84 David Peterson 1,863

Law Firms 84 LG Securities America, Inc. 1,800

Financial Institutions 84 San-In Godo Bank Ltd. 2,000

Financial Institutions 84 Daehan International 1,200

Financial Institutions 84,89 SMW Trading Corp. 3,000

Financial Institutions 85 Thermo Electron 2,289

85 Julien J. Studley, Inc. 6,372

Real Estate 86 May Davis Group 12,824

Financial Institutions 87 Barcley Dwyer 12,211

89 Broad USA, Inc. N/A

Retailers/Wholesalers 89 CIIC Group (USA), Ltd. 2,500

Financial Institutions 89 Drinker Biddle & Reath 10,000

Law Firms 89 Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. 7,119

Insurance 89 Mutual International Forwarding 1,200

Transportation 89 Strategic Communications, Inc. 2,400

Communications 89 Wai Gao Qiao USA, Inc. 1,528

Business Services 89 Wall Street Planning Association 2,154

89 The Chugoku Bank, Ltd. 1,500

Financial Institutions 90 American Bureau of Shipping 8,400

Engineers 91 Fred Alger Management 36,078 Investments 93 Marsh USA 361,000

Insurance 93-100 Kidder Peabody & Co. N/A

101 Cantor Fitzgerald Securities 22,000

Investments 101-105 The Nishi-Nippon Bank, Ltd. 10,325

Banks/Financial Institutions 102 Channel 4 (NBC) 400 Cable/Television 104

Windows on the World 40,000

106 Greatest Bar on Earth 13,333

107 World Trade Club 13,333

107 Channel 5 (WNYW) 200

Cable/Television 110 Channel 31 (WBIS) 1,400

Cable/Television 110 Channel 47 (WNJU) 800

Cable/Television 110 Channel 2 (WCBS) 400

Cable/Television 110 Channel 11 (WPIX) 400

Cable/Television 110

An AOL Time Warner Company.

Terms under which this service is provided to you. Read our privacy guidelines.

It makes sense... I heard that Cantor Fitzgerald had around 1000 employees that worked in the building but roughly 700 were there when the plane hit. If they were a typical office then one can see that the buildings were nowhere near capacity.

Almost all of our 3,700 employees got out in time.

It helped that our Chairman told them to ignore the Port Authority (about staying at their desks) and get the heck out of there.

I think it should be 90,000 visitors daily, giving a grand total of 140,000: 50,000 workers plus 90,000 visitors.

I heard this on one of the networks.

Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by God. I certainly know who God is, but can't for the life of me figure out what you are trying to say.

Prayer... In some Christian circles there were prophecies as early as early 1999 about disaster striking the East Coast. The Word of the Lord was that it couldn't be totally avoided but it could be lessened. Fervent prayer and intercession began to be made.

Each one of the incidents was lessened. The Towers remained up long enough for most to escape. The White House and Congress were spared. The Pentagon was miraculously struck in the area of lowest occupancy. One plane crashed in a forest. At least one plane didn't take off.

People often misinterpret prophecy. God's desire is not that people would experience trouble, but that they would repent and turn towards Him. So often, though, people stay hard in their hearts and suffer, and curse the very one who desires to show mercy.

An often overlooked occurrence was the that the Port Authority did not allow trains to stop at WTC as soon as the first building was hit. This kept a lot of people out of the area.

......who the heck is Michael Rivero?

The great believer that anything and everything is a conspiracy.
He used to post a lot.
Haven't seen him in a while though.

(Maybe THEY got him!)

(Maybe THEY got him!)

ROFLMAO!
Good Point.
Could be....
LOL

How could Windows on the World have 40,000 employees? It was a restaurant and there was only one group in there for a breakfast meeting.

I still do not know what the figures mean - world wide employees perhaps?

Square footage of leased space?

, the truth is that it stayed up for about an hour which was enough time for a large number of people to escape.

Yep,probably 99% of those on the floors below the impact area got out. I heard some reports that in one tower the stairwell was intact even on the floors of impact so many could have quickly escaped before becoming overcome with the smoke.

Related Link => Number of New York dead may be 2,000 less than official tally