Blast to the Past- Did the Puritans Represent the American Way?

self | 10-29-01 | self

[futurepotus]

I do appreciate the analysis, however, let me point out two things.

First, the thesis. The essay question was 'Did the Puritans Represent the American Way?' Basically I had no choice in the matter of how my thesis statement should be. It was either positive or negative, and whichever road I chose I had to stay with the whole time. She wanted us to answer the question, so we had to have 'America' in it somewhere.

Second, good call on the religious paragraph. I got 5 out of 10 on that one. Needless to say, when we were allowed to rewrite a paragraph, that's the one I re-wrote.

[JZoback]

What the heck are you reading?

I'll studied that part of American history rather well.

The point you are trying to make reeks of post-modern thought.

If you want to read real information about the Puritans, may I suggest any thing written pre-civil war.

A lot closer historical and not biased by the philosophy of Neitze

[BabylonXXX]

By the way...

I didn't mean to sound like an a$$hole. You know you are having a boring day at work when you'd rather 'grade' some kids' essay!

I figured the assignment had forced the thesis upon you. What can you do...

There were times when I'd turn in an essay in response to a silly question such as that by writing why the question was fallacious. Of course, I'd get an F.

More generally, though, you could do worse than to go to the library and read some of the writings of the Puritans themselves. (instead of books about them.)

That school of thought truly did attract/produce some of the greatest minds in the Western world -- even if you disagree with their theology.

[factmart]

James Madison (1751-1836), our fourth President, was known as the "Chief Architect of the Constitution," and the original author and promoter of the Bill of Rights. In the Constitutional Convention he spoke 161 times. Madison said: "It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator . . . homage. . . ." and defined "religion" thus: "Religion ... the duty we owe our Creator." p. 410.

Interesting how Madison is quoted above as a religious person, and here he is quoted:

James Madison, American president and political theorist (1751-1836). "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” [April 1, 1774]

I'm not going to check out an Atheist website to find out what Thomas Jefferson is quoted to say. I don't really believe your quote above, but I do know one thing. If you go to Washington, D.C. and check out the Thomas Jefferson Memorial you will find a quote in there that basically says ... a country that doesn't worship Jesus Christ won't last ... check it out for yourself.

It's interesting that even Darwin became a Christian at the end of his life. In fact, I don't know any death bed atheists.

[WillRain]

Thank you for pointing this out. It is an example of my public school education that I had always understood the two to be one and the same. I had never, until now, had any reason to suspect differently.
While I am embarrased to be caught out on what, apparently, should be common knowledge (especially to one who considers himself a middling history buff anyway) I am glad to have the misconception corrected.

Thank you.

[rolling_stone]

The quote was from Madison, not Thomas Jefferson..by the way isn't it rumored that Jefferson had a child with his slave? Is that a good example? According Rayners' Life of Jefferson..(http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/biog/)With regard to the personal piety of the President, if external observances are of any account, it is well known that he was a constant and exemplary attendant upon public worship, liberal in contributions to the support of the simple religion of Jesus, but frowning and inflexible on all sectarian projects.

Check here for more info on Jefferson and his Jefferson Bible, I find him an interesting man.

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html

What about that other Thomas, Edison...Thomas Edison, American inventor (1847-1931). "Religion is all bunk." "I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."

I don't have a clue where you heard Darwin was a Christian, in his autobiography he claims to be an agnostic:

http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/library/cd_relig.htm#8

[Jerry_M]

What about that other Thomas, Edison...Thomas Edison, American inventor (1847-1931). "Religion is all bunk." "I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."

I guess he knows better now.

[RnMomof7]

I guess he knows better now.

YEP!

[RnMomof7]

The quote was from Madison, not Thomas Jefferson..by the way isn't it rumored that Jefferson had a child with his slave? Is that a good example?

That rumor was publicized (by a fob) to cover the tail of one of the most immoral heathens to ever sit in the office of the President of the United States..one that will surely burn in the fires of Hell unless he is moved to fall on his face before a Mighty God!

That being said, a recent article that I read said it has been pretty well disproven that the baby Sally had was Jefferson's..the genetic tests point to a cousin of his..

All men have fallen short of the Glory of God,that is why Thomas Jefferson,Bill Clinton,you and I need a Savior!

[factmart]

Darwin was a Christian, in his autobiography that was written before he was on his death bed, he was not a Christian, But on his death bed he converted to Christ!

A very smart atheist, eternity is forever. �

[rolling_stone]

Darwin claimed to be agnostic, not an atheist and I can find nothing documented that he "converted" to christianity on his deathbed...even if he did does that qualify him for heaven after leading a life believing different? Sounds like a strange religion to me, kinda like the muslims, convert or die...

[Frank Grimes]

FWIW- I am a direct descendant of Roger Williams, on my Mother's side.

[Kermit the Frog Does theWatusi]

Between the 1620s and the 1770s, there was, shall we say, considerable social development and changes away from the extremist theocratic dictatorship of early Massachusetts. The southern colonies had a very different early historic experience, just as there are considerable differences in attitude and temperament today. The romantic Puritan mythology of the 17th-century is quite different from the representative constitutionalism and separation of powers model which developed in the 1770s and 1780s. But we have strayed even from that.

[factmart]

Don't know the BIBLE, you can covert any time before you die. What a merciful GOD.

[RJayneJ]

Thanks for the heads up! };^D)

[George W. Bush]

He wrote it for his AP History class. This means he is a high schooler. This is the way that the story of the Puritans has filtered down through the educational system anything much different. Any writer has to consider his audience. Perhaps the teacher had made his/her opinion of to our youth. Sad. Give him a D.

If he knew the teacher had real enmity for Calvinism and Puritanism, he would have been asking for a D to write Puritans very clear.

I thought the writing style was good, organization was adequate. However, it was a uniformly negative and anachronistic view of Puritan influence. Generally speaking, the paper would deserve a C in most any public school because this is a very ordinary treatment of Puritans in public school history.

futurepotus, I'd like to know if this paper represented fully your opinion of the Puritans or if it was tailored to fit your teacher's views. Oh, and are you attending public, private or religious school?

[George W. Bush]

That school of thought truly did attract/produce some of the greatest minds in the Western world -- even if you disagree with their theology.

The Puritans and the Calvinists both share that certain inciendiary quality, a probing intellect that refines the weakness of worldly notions of religion and conventional ideas about civil government. America is still a Christian nation only to the extent that their influence has persevered.

[RnMomof7]

See #44 you and Jerry_M may be kin!

[George W. Bush]

Check here for more info on Jefferson and his Jefferson Bible, I find him an interesting man.

Your link to the website mentions the Jefferson Bible. I understand that the full Jeffersonian Bible was destroyed in the fire that engulfed his library. We have only remnants of Jefferson's early thinking on Christianity. Apparently, he had showed it to enough people that it damaged his reputation since he had rewritten the Bible and edited out the parts he thought fanciful. Actually, he was a lot like a one-man Jesus Seminar if you're familiar with the modern blasphemers so beloved by Peter Jennings. There is enough evidence remaining and that accrued after the fire to indicate that Jefferson believed that Jesus was not Christ, and not the Son of God and the instrument of man's salvation.

Given this, Jefferson would be very comparable to modern Anglicans or a dozen or more liberal mainstream Christian churches who do not actually believe in the deity of Jesus and consider Him merely to be a great teacher.

Jefferson is, in most lists of the religious affiliation of great Americans, listed as merely a Deist. I think that is pretty accurate given what we know about him.

Oh, yeah, and the most recent evidence about Jefferson fathering a child with his slave indicates that the whole thing is bogus. However, the leading historians who have now reached this conclusion have not been heard much from. Funny how a bogus piece of liberal propaganda is trumpetted by the libmedia everywhere to establish it as a "fact" but then when it is disproven, the libmedia suddenly finds itself interested in reporting other facts. Funny how that works. We had a thread here a while back that focused on how the top historians debunked this but that their opinion is now irrelevant and the descendants of the slave woman are still entitled to attend Jefferson events and lay claim to his ancestry. More NAACP nonsense.

[George W. Bush]

I don't have a clue where you heard Darwin was a Christian, in his autobiography he claims to be an agnostic:

How galled Darwin was when he found that the great scientific minds of his own day rejected his theory uniformly and that the only group who embraced it was the apostasizing Church of England. The top Anglican clergy were overjoyed that some "scientist" could relieve them of worrying that the account of God's creation in the Bible was true. It was also useful in helping the Anglicans to abandon missionary efforts in places like Australia where they could then dismiss the aborigines (who they couldn't seem to convert) as subhuman. Interestingly, fundamentalist Christians moved in at the same time and converted them by the thousands.

Darwin was always galled that his partner in promoting evolution was the Church of England since they used his theory to promote "guided evolution". This Hegelian synthesis by the Anglicans was completely opposed to both traditional creation by God and to true Darwinism which maintained that evolution was entirely random and not necessarily "progressive".

But the Church of England was so grateful to Darwin that they gave him a finer funeral than they ever gave to any other public figure including the great military heroes and political leaders of England.