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SAP chooses Sun Micro software over Microsoft-FT (Java wins one over .NET)
Yahoo Finance ^ | Related Quotes | Staff Writer

Posted on 10/30/2001 4:52:06 AM PST by Dominic Harr

Monday October 29, 8:44 pm Eastern Time

SAP chooses Sun Micro software over Microsoft-FT

LONDON, Oct 30 (Reuters) - SAP , Europe's biggest software group, has decided not to use Microsoft's(NasdaqNM:MSFT - news) .Net software and is instead backing a competing offering from Sun Microsystems (NasdaqNM:SUNW - news), the Financial Times reported on Tuesday.

SAP chief executive Hasso Plattner will announce next week the German group is to adopt Sun's J2EE architecture, a development platform for enterprise software based on the Java programming language, to run SAP software, people close to the talks told the newspaper.

SAP's move, if confirmed, is likely to be a blow to Microsoft, as the German group has one of the largest customer bases of any business software developer.


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F.Y.I.

The 'Java' wars are about the most important thing going on in the technology field, and almost no one even knows it's happening.

Heck, most people haven't a clue what 'cross-platform' programs would *mean*.

1 posted on 10/30/2001 4:52:06 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: *tech_index
Bump, for an 'ultra-geeks only' thread . . .
2 posted on 10/30/2001 5:04:05 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
The biggest stealth move Microsoft made recently was the acquisition of mid-market accounting software maker Great Plains. Microsoft is planning to do to ERP systems what they are well on their way to doing to databases: to eat up the market from below. This is why SAP, which used to be buddies with Microsoft, is now on the outside.

In fact, probably the highest value part of .Net will be to creat a hybrid off-the-shelf/ASP model for business software. Right now, only larger businesses can afford real ERP. Microsoft will make it cheap enough for 50 person companies to get the same capabilities. Greap Plains will be to ERP what desktop publishing was to Agfa page comp systems.

3 posted on 10/30/2001 5:12:04 AM PST by eno_
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To: Dominic Harr
I admit I haven't been paying attention. I didn't realize that Java was still a controversy. In fact, with the lack of cross-platform applications powered by Java, I guess I'd assumed Java was relegated to a specialized niche (which in fact SAP would represent).

I always thought that Java was the answer to the Microsoft hegemony, and that Linux would take off as an alternative desktop OS once Java apps proliferated. But that hasn't come to pass. Anyone have any comments?

4 posted on 10/30/2001 5:13:02 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Dominic Harr
SAP isn't exactly a gold standard in software so this means about zilch except to those silly enough to budget a minimum of $25 million for a bloated MRP and accounting system.
5 posted on 10/30/2001 5:17:06 AM PST by Glenn
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To: Dominic Harr
"The 'Java' wars are about the most important thing going on in the technology field, and almost no one even knows it's happening."

I totally agree. (Imagine that!) I like .NET and I can see advantages of J2EE also, so this is going to be a real industry battle that most likely will have sides and never a clear winner. Competition is good.

6 posted on 10/30/2001 5:17:33 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: eno_
This is why SAP, which used to be buddies with Microsoft, is now on the outside.

On the 'outside'?

SAP chose what is the *standard* now. By far most implementations of distributed software are going Java. Ya'll just don't see the news, because almost no one watches this stuff.

That's why I'm posting it.

Microsoft is on the 'outside' on this one . . .

8 posted on 10/30/2001 5:22:01 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Illbay
In fact, with the lack of cross-platform applications powered by Java, I guess I'd assumed Java was relegated to a specialized niche (which in fact SAP would represent).

Actually, the applications are everywhere. They're dominant. You just don't hear anything about *any* of it, it isn't on most people's radar ( and most news idiots don't understand a topic of this complexity, of course), which is why I'm posting this.

Even Microsoft uses Java for their distributed web offerings. Go to The Microsoft Gaming Zone and play hearts, spades, chess, etc.

All Java applets.

Of course, above the table, Microsoft and the 'Microsoft only' crowd can't say a good thing about Java. Under the table, they use it. Typical

Java has become the standard for in-house corporate development. An article recently showed results of a survey that showed that the number of new Java development projects has passed new C++ development, and that Java programmers are more in demand than C++ and VB developers.

But Java's biggest 'win' has been server side development and 'rich-client' development (a 'rich, fully functional front end like those Java games -- online, never drop a connection, never crashes). The 'rich-client' dev is what I do for CSC. It really requires broadband access for the full effect, so it's not likely to penetrate to the consumer for some time yet.

Of course, the 'Windows Only' crowd will only run Java down without ever having used it . . .

9 posted on 10/30/2001 5:29:50 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
By far most implementations of distributed software are going Java.

Can you please either elaborate or provide references, so we may judge the accuracy of such a profound statement?

10 posted on 10/30/2001 5:31:13 AM PST by rit
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To: innocentbystander
SAP can play their press release anyway they want; but the truth is that they got kicked out of Redmond, and had nowhere else to go.

Is that the 'spin' straight from Redmond?

This is about development languages. SAP didn't get 'kicked out' of developing with .NET. They made a *choice*.

What a spin! This is why it's a 'war'. Ya'll MS people are willing to say *anything* to try and discredit Java, all the while MS uses it for it's own web offerings. MS is using it's full marketing clout to try and stop Java. You are a part of that.

SAP made a choice of what language to develop it's next version in. They went with J2EE.

11 posted on 10/30/2001 5:33:44 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
SAP sucks... the company I interned for in high school used it.
12 posted on 10/30/2001 5:36:18 AM PST by jude24
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To: rit
Can you please either elaborate or provide references, so we may judge the accuracy of such a profound statement?

I can offer you personal experience -- I'm a Java developer for CSC.

Or, you can read the thread,Study: Java to overtake C/C++ in 2002 from here in the forum.

But I really am not to concerned about 'convincing' anyone of Java's success. I'd rather you look at some Java programs and decide for yourself if it's superior.

Do a web search for Java Games, for example, and play some of the thousands of offerings.

I'm afraid I can't let you see the in-house tools we write, since they interface to our Oracle Financials and Lotus Notes. My employer wouldn't like me just showing that off, I'm think.

13 posted on 10/30/2001 5:42:23 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Glenn
SAP isn't exactly a gold standard in software so this means about zilch except to those silly enough to budget a minimum of $25 million for a bloated MRP and accounting system.

Dittos to that. We have customers who've tried to implement SAP and it still is not working properly. They also give their customers some incredibly asinine advise about implementation - advice which raises costs and increases the chance of error.

We saw a company smaller than ours who was lauding SAP and describing their great implementation. They spent more on consultants than we did on our entire system, which does everything SAP could have done for us, but better.

SAP sucks.

14 posted on 10/30/2001 5:46:28 AM PST by jimt
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To: Dominic Harr
Ah, a link to 'games' to prove the prowess of Java. Not surprising as Java is for front enders.

Having said that, I agree that this is a fairly big blow to MS.

15 posted on 10/30/2001 5:48:08 AM PST by KayEyeDoubleDee
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To: jimt
SAP sucks.

We (CSC) currently use Oracle Financials, and are starting to migrate to SAP.

And the *next* version, if it's written in Java, will likely be a *whole new thing*.

Remember, the version you *don't* like is written in C/C++.

16 posted on 10/30/2001 5:50:07 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: KayEyeDoubleDee
Not surprising as Java is for front enders.

Actually, Java's strength is in Server Side programming -- servlets and JavaBeans have become the *standard* for server-side programming.

That is specifically the reason Microsoft is coming out with .NET.

I include these links to hundreds of 'client-side' Java programs specifically because the most common argument *against* Java is that it's a 'Server Side' only language, too slow for client side applications (applets).

17 posted on 10/30/2001 5:53:01 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: rit
"By far most implementations of distributed software are going Java."

"Can you please either elaborate or provide references, so we may judge the accuracy of such a profound statement?"

There is no doubt of the validity of this claim. IBM with it's WebSphere 4.0 application server has made J2EE THE distributed computing model for the enterprise. I'm talking big deployments here -- Bank of America, for example, has multiple mainframes running multiple instances of Java 2 in it's UNIX system services environment for applications such as MoveMoney and DirectBanking. These applications are written using the J2EE architecture and actually touch money, so they are serious. I don't know how much more distributed you can get than a nationwide network of ATM machines and mainframes.

We even deploy smaller scale applications using WebLogic application server and WebSphere on Windows 2000 Servers. These are also distributed, with multiple clusters of servers behind load-balancing IP masquerading routers handling client requests.

Microsoft's .NET strategy is not yet out of beta, and therefore has no chance of claiming any of the J2EE market share for any production applications, unless the IT managers / CIO's that authorize said transition want to look for another job.

19 posted on 10/30/2001 6:26:48 AM PST by gcraig
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To: eno_
What is "ERP" software?

Thanks in advance!

20 posted on 10/30/2001 6:31:58 AM PST by newfreep
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To: Dominic Harr
Our company is moving to PeopleSoft early next year (AP/AR/GL/Payroll/FA)., Running on a ES9000 using Compact servers. Has anybody been down THAT Path ? I have been told that the software is VERY hard to implement. (I think I am going to quit) Any input would help.
21 posted on 10/30/2001 7:11:35 AM PST by qwert
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To: The Documentary Lady
Freedom from the cluthches of Microsoft?

Yep. Unfortunately, John and Jane Public don't even seem to realize that this would be a *good* thing . . .

It takes a minimum amount of technical understanding to know what this is about.

22 posted on 10/30/2001 7:11:56 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: qwert
Our company is moving to PeopleSoft early next year (AP/AR/GL/Payroll/FA)., Running on a ES9000 using Compact servers.

I have heard the same, that 'Peoplesoft' is rather difficult to get started with. But it's suppose to be very robust, I think.

Beyond that, I have no idea.

I kinda like 'Niku6' a lot, for what it's worth . . .

23 posted on 10/30/2001 7:14:27 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: jimt
You vill shortly receive a midnight vist from the SAP Schutzenstaffel, Yankee Dog!

Zere is nuzzink wrong mit auer softwaren. Ze problem is untermenschen who attempt to use it wizaut undershtandink the filosofie and who fall behind in der payments.

GOTT STRAFE Microsoft.

Seriously, SAP's marketing scheme is devilishly clever. Since it takes five years to install, configure, and get SAP working at all, they figure their clients will all go belly up and they get to keep the money.

24 posted on 10/30/2001 7:17:38 AM PST by Francohio
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: Dominic Harr
I have been keeping an eye on JAVA and am considering a career-shift in that direction. I've been on the sales/marketing side of software, but would like to move over to the development side - especially JAVA.
But where should I start?

What is the practical path for jumping on this bandwagon?
I've done the college thing -BS/Purdue U.- and will do it again if I must - just don't know if it's necessary. (My degree is not computer science related.)
Prerequisite programming knowledge?
Some kind of certification/training program to pursue?

I would appreciate your comments!
~~I know you are probably not a career counselor, but I can't resist the opportunity to ask!~~

26 posted on 10/30/2001 7:43:58 AM PST by lucyblue
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To: newfreep
ERP = Enterprise Resource Planning. I.e. real-time accounting, order-processing, supply-chain, etc. The end of "closing the books." You have all data up to date all the time. Easier said than done, hence the high cost of implementation.

Easy prediction: Microsoft's first efforts will be called "a toy." Three years later, everyone else will be bust, and the "toy" will be running all but the largest enterprises at much lower cost than today's ERP sytems.

27 posted on 10/30/2001 8:00:39 AM PST by eno_
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To: Dominic Harr
Dear God, Dominic, Java-based tools for Lotus Notes? Who uses that stuff? Only people who can't see "maintenence headache" written all over it.
28 posted on 10/30/2001 8:02:41 AM PST by eno_
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To: Dominic Harr
I understand your point. But I do telco software for which Java is too slow. Most people can get by with fast processors and lots of RAM on their desktop.
29 posted on 10/30/2001 8:17:51 AM PST by KayEyeDoubleDee
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To: The Documentary Lady
I'm not an IT professional but I do understand what "crash" means and what amounts to extortion from Gates

I am not going to get into a debate on the "extortion" question, but I work 50 hours a week on a W2K platform, and I literally can not remember the last time it crashed.

30 posted on 10/30/2001 8:41:48 AM PST by KayEyeDoubleDee
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To: eno_
Microsoft made recently was the acquisition of mid-market accounting software maker Great Plains.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Give that man a prize for making up for the complete lack of journalism in this story!

Headline should read.... "SAP, now even HARDER to install!" :)
31 posted on 10/30/2001 8:44:42 AM PST by Daus
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To: Dominic Harr
Die, .NET, die...
32 posted on 10/30/2001 8:46:57 AM PST by madrussian
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To: The Documentary Lady
. I'm not an IT professional but I do understand what "crash" means and what amounts to extortion from Gates. I'm not the only mom who's mad.

I'm so glad to see that.

I don't know if you've followed many of these threads, but there seems to be a never-ending stream of 'MS can't do anything wrong' folks claiming that a 'cross-platform' language wouldn't matter a whit.

It's rather frustrating . . .

33 posted on 10/30/2001 9:38:23 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: lucyblue
What is the practical path for jumping on this bandwagon?

I'm not sure if this is the kind of advice you'll like, but I'd say just go to The Sun Java Site and download the latest 'JDK' (1.3 is the latest 'finished' release, but the 1.4 beta is *very* nice).

The JDK has a compiler with it, and full instructions. You can write your very first program.

Or, you could buy a book. There are lots of good ones.

I left college before my Senior year, never finished my 'Economics' degree, because of a Job offer. And the lack of a degree has never even been a question. It's all about 'job skills'. What you can do for them.

34 posted on 10/30/2001 9:44:07 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: eno_
Dear God, Dominic, Java-based tools for Lotus Notes? Who uses that stuff? Only people who can't see "maintenence headache" written all over it.'

Tell me about it!

It's far better than the 'LotusScript' reporting 'tools' we're replacing, almost revolutionary in comparison to what they're using now. But the company executive's reliance on Lotus is maddening. All our own tools run off of Oracle, with one small DB on SQLServer.

I'm ready to migrate off of Lotus as soon as someone gives me the 'go' signal!

36 posted on 10/30/2001 9:50:23 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
In other news the new Sun model 880's are out. The may have up to eight 750MHz UltraSPARC-III processors and 32 GB RAM.


37 posted on 10/30/2001 9:55:05 AM PST by Liberal Classic
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To: KayEyeDoubleDee
But I do telco software for which Java is too slow.

Agreed, I would not yet reccommend Java for an application that reads/writes from a hard drive a few thousand times a minute, or does *serious* number cruching, or does a lot of 'hardware' controls. Altho you might spend less in the long run by just writing a Java program and buying more hardware power, compared to writing, performance tuning and debugging C++ code. If developer time counts as a 'cost' . . . Java code writes and debugs in about half the time as C++, so the end-result is the C++ program costs far more.

But for client/server, rich-client distributed software . . . Java is the *only* sensible choice.

38 posted on 10/30/2001 10:06:43 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: The Documentary Lady
Does cross-platform mean being able to communicate with Mac, PC and Linux people without a lot of muss and fuss?

'Cross-platform' or 'platform-independent' programming means software that *out of the box* will run on Linux, Mac, PC, Unix, or any other OS that someone writes a 'virtual machine' for.

Like the internet works now. If you go to any of those Java game sites, including the Microsoft Gaming zone, you can play the Java applets there on *any* of these platforms.

The stuff I write is used by Mac, PC and Linux users regularly.

39 posted on 10/30/2001 10:10:30 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Liberal Classic
The may have up to eight 750MHz UltraSPARC-III processors and 32 GB RAM.

Sweet machines, I'm sure, but I personally think Sun's machines are overpriced for what you get.

I'm actually not a big 'Sun' fan, altho I do like the language that they, IBM and HP came up with.

40 posted on 10/30/2001 10:12:16 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
This is one of their new lower-end servers, in the same vein as the 250 and 450. They are significanly less expensive than the 4000, 5000, and 6000 series servers, which go from 16 to 32 CPUs. However, you are right in that we are not talking about chump change for the minimum configuration. In the 880, the entry level machine is two CPUs and 4GB RAM. The good news is that RAM is cheap these days.

HP and IBM all have respectable unix offerings in similar class machines. For any of these manufacturers we're talking about $15,000 to $20,000 to start with. That may seem like an astronomical amount of money, but remember that we are talking about 8-way machines that can drive a quarter to a half of a terabyte of storage, if you cough up money for disks.

I work in the midrange world. I once bragged about a half a terabyte to some mainframer and he laughed at me. :)

Speaking generally, here. I've said before, I am not a computer bigot. I have Windows at home, and I have Windows at work. It's a great desktop OS that enjoys widespread popularity. But there is a larger world out there, and once you've seen it you'll realize that Microsoft is not the end all and be all of computers.

41 posted on 10/30/2001 10:33:08 AM PST by Liberal Classic
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To: Dominic Harr
Ach Tung !!! Hitlery wins again !!!
42 posted on 10/30/2001 10:39:32 AM PST by GeekDejure
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To: Dominic Harr
Well ya see, that's the thing. Pick a platform, and pick the easiest and cheapest tools for that platform. Right now the only two choices for easy and cheap are Microsoft and free software like Linux. Mainframes are hideously expensive, and Solaris/Oracle/SAP is only slightly less hideously expensive. All this cusomized glue, just for a mail server (ya, ya, I know "groupware" - it's for the birds) is crazy. What makes Microsoft a winner is they sell stuff 80% of customers can use just by turning the knobs on the controls themselves. Free software has its own attractions Microsoft can't touch, but for a different kind of customer.
43 posted on 10/30/2001 10:41:09 AM PST by eno_
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To: Illbay
I always thought that Java was the answer to the Microsoft hegemony, and that Linux would take off as an alternative desktop OS once Java apps proliferated. But that hasn't come to pass. Anyone have any comments?

On desktops, Windows is still undisputed King and probably will continue to be for a while. On servers, J2EE is head and shoulders above the Windows platform. So M$FT will continue to dominate desktops (the Wintel platform) but Sun's J2EE is the de facto server platform for large-scale business apps. Linux to date has been more successful cannabalizing Unix (and sometimes Windows) on the server for non-mission critical apps, especially as a platform for dedicated web (HTTP) servers (i.e., Apache).

44 posted on 10/30/2001 10:42:06 AM PST by constable tom
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: Dominic Harr
The truly amusing thing is that, with Sun cutting nearly 9% of its workforce, it will be lucky to continue driving efforts which bring in little or no revenue ... such as Java.
46 posted on 10/30/2001 3:29:37 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Dominic Harr
Even Microsoft uses Java for their distributed web offerings. Go to The Microsoft Gaming Zone and play hearts, spades, chess, etc. All Java applets.

But aren't those applets evil since they were produced with Microsoft J++?
47 posted on 10/30/2001 3:31:44 PM PST by Bush2000
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: The Documentary Lady
And the MS people don't think this means something?

Just ask Bush2000 his opinion. I'm sure he'll explain himself better than I can.

Didn't have a problem. Java games just won the "Detroit Mom" award. I sincerely hope your java work continues becauses java sure is looking good.

Thank you for actually checking them out. That's the point -- online games that don't crash, work on any machine and never lose a connection.

All I ask is that people evaluate for themselves.

You'll start to see more and more of this for consumer use, as time goes on. The really *good* stuff requires some sort of 'broadband' high-speed access, so the powerful commercial applications will have to wait until enough people have high speed access. But that will come . . .

49 posted on 10/31/2001 11:25:16 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Bush2000
The truly amusing thing is that, with Sun cutting nearly 9% of its workforce, it will be lucky to continue driving efforts which bring in little or no revenue ... such as Java.

Actually, it's Sun, IBM and HP driving Java. Sun is just one of the 'big 3'. And besides, Java has taken root, and doesn't really even need the 'big backers' anymore.

But aren't those applets evil since they were produced with Microsoft J++?

First, those applets were outsourced, written by other companies -- not by Microsoft. So we don't know *what* IDE they used.

Second, Visual J++ is just an IDE. Nothing wrong with it. I used it for years. It still writes Java. Why should the IDE matter? I find that VisualCafe is a better IDE, because it has better support for servlets and other Java2 stuff -- which VisualJ++ has completely ignored.

50 posted on 10/31/2001 11:44:03 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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