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Justice Department won't let (FBI) agent testify (in Nichol's state trial)
Indianapolis Star ^ | November 3, 2001 | JAMES PATTERSON

Posted on 11/03/2001 12:15:30 PM PST by OKCSubmariner

Edited on 05/07/2004 6:26:27 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

While Terry Nichols, already convicted on federal charges in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, returned to court Monday to face the state's case against him, the government was squirming to squelch evidence that Nichols and Timothy McVeigh did not act by themselves.


(Excerpt) Read more at indystar.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; News/Current Events
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Last week the DOJ refused to let former FBI agents Dan Vogel and Richard Ojeda testify in the Nichols state trial. Vogel and Ojeda had appeared on a CBS 60 II minutes program devoted to the OKC bombing earlier this year and had indicated the FBI had deliberately withheld key evidence in the Nichols and McVeigh trials.

Vogel had said the FBI would eventually destroy itself for violations of basic COnstituional rights he had seen while at the FBI. Ojeda had said that 302 interview reports he had written up on German National Andreas Strassmeyer involvement with McVeigh were never allowed to reach the defense.

The FBI & DOJ are guilty of criminal obstruction of justice and witness tampering in the OKC case especially becasue of FBI foreknowledge and complicity in the bombing(failed sting operation?) as well as the deliberate lack of prosecution of several known John DOes both Middle Eastern(Iraqi/Pakistani) and American (provacateurs,informants from Arizona & Kansas directly involved with McVeigh in OKC at the scene).

Ashcroft and Mueller are no better than Reno and Freeh when it comes to the corruption, the perjury and the obstruction of justice by FBI and DOJ officials. They will not gain GOd's favor in the domestic war on terrorism until they repent and start being honest and truly protective of Amercian citizens and also Christians who are citizens.

1 posted on 11/03/2001 12:15:30 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: dennisw; ratcat; Nita Nupress; chantal7; SharpEye; rwz; Bub; LSJohn; Judge Parker; archy...
BUMP

This story was buried (not adeqautely covered) in the FBI controlled newspaper for Oklahoma, the Daily (Disappointment) Oklahoman.

2 posted on 11/03/2001 12:20:20 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: OKCSubmariner
Thanks for posting this.

I've been wondering what was happening.

3 posted on 11/03/2001 12:22:43 PM PST by carenot
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To: Marianne; Twodees; IRtorqued; Manny Festo; honway; rubbertramp
BUMP
4 posted on 11/03/2001 12:22:52 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: OKCSubmariner
How can John Ashcroft expect us to believe anything he says when he deals out stuff like this? Thanks for keeping us informed.
5 posted on 11/03/2001 12:24:06 PM PST by Tymesup
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: OKCSubmariner
"The ruling was that he (Linder) would not permit him (Agent Vogel) to testify because the Department of Justice had taken the position that it would not authorize his testimony," Bergman said Thursday.
I have two problems here: 1) how is Terry Nichol's supposed to defend himself when the FBI says that its agents can't testify? 2) can Vogel testify on his own behalf? Is he somehow sworn to never say anything? Can't he testify as a private individual?
7 posted on 11/03/2001 12:34:45 PM PST by lelio
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To: OKCSubmariner
Ashcroft and Mueller are no better than Reno and Freeh when it comes to the corruption, the perjury and the obstruction of justice by FBI and DOJ officials. They will not gain GOd's favor in the domestic war on terrorism until they repent and start being honest and truly protective of Amercian citizens and also Christians who are citizens.

Submariner, thank you for your tireless efforts to keep us all informed about these developments. Unfortunately, it seems that a change in administration has done nothing to alter the position of the FBI on covering up these affidavits.

Do you, as the most well-informed Freeper on this subject, have any sensible theories that would explain WHY the Bush justice administration would want to continue this charade?

This and the recent attempts to seal the records of previous presidents is really starting to make me wonder JUST WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE! Anyone else getting a bit curious?

8 posted on 11/03/2001 12:37:36 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: EarlyBird
Do you, as the most well-informed Freeper on this subject, have any sensible theories that would explain WHY the Bush justice administration would want to continue this charade?
Well in this case I think it is somewhat obvious: McVeigh had some middle eastern connections. There is no way this person, who had a nitro-gylerine accident before, would ever transport it again, especially in a Ryder truck.
Either the government knows who his contacts are or they don't. Either way they don't want the American people to know that there was a terrorist event against them and the government couldn't do a thing about it.
And if they came clean now it would cast doubt on anything the agency does. So they are kinda stuck. Once you start lying you have to continue.
9 posted on 11/03/2001 12:44:16 PM PST by lelio
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: OKCSubmariner
I get the feeling the gubment doesn't want their collective faces rubbed into their ineptness. see also fury as bush keeps key to the archives
12 posted on 11/03/2001 12:52:15 PM PST by IRtorqued
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: lelio; EarlyBird
Ashcroft and Mueller are trying to save their own butts and they honestly believe they are serving America's interests by protecting the institutions of the FBI and DOJ with coverups at all costs. They do not think America could survive if she learned the truth about the corruption in the FBI and DOJ. Ashcroft and Mueller have said they are cleaning up the FBI and DOJ but I doubt they are trying very hard since they are spending most of their time covering up the previous coverups so they can buy time (they say?)to clean up the FBI and DOJ in the future.

They are arrogant in their reliance on their belief that there are not enough Americans with enough clout to stop them and the FBI and DOJ coverups. That is, they think and believe they can get away with breaking the law, not enforcing the law properly and not adequately protecting Americans.

Given this mentality on their part, it makes me concernned these men will not have the proper wisdom, the best judgement, adequate leadership and integrity skills to successfully protect Americans from terrorists already in the US and coming to the US.

But all the while they are slowly but surely creating a police state (greatly reduced freedoms) in America with laws which may never be rescinded once the war on terrorism subsides.

14 posted on 11/03/2001 1:15:56 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: OKCSubmariner
"The Supreme Court said (in United States vs. Touhy) that a state court judge could not hold an employee of the Department of Justice in contempt for failing to comply with a subpoena if they had been ordered not to provide the information by their superior," Bergman said. "Tom Majors, who is an assistant U.S. attorney, testified at Monday's hearing that he had received a letter from the Department of Justice refusing to authorize such testimony."

This is just so wrong! The President, the DOJ, FBI..none of these agencies or any of our branches of government or their people are above the law and this ruling..The US vs. Touhy and the Nichols case show us that the government thinks that it and it's people are above the law.

WE, the people, need to take those arrogant, egomanics down a notch or two. This really makes me mad!

If they won't let the witnesses and the agents who know the truth testify in court, then they should let Nichols go. If they can't give him a fair trial with all the facts laid out on the table then they have no business putting him in jail because he hasn't had a fair trial therefore his prior trial is null and void and if they won't give him a fair trial then they should not be allowed to try him again.

This is as bad as the federal government infringing on people's right of double jeopardy. Once a person is tried in any American court of law, even if the government doesn't like the jury's ruling then they shouldn't be allowed to get a second chance by letting the feds have a go at it or visa versa. Especially, with the feds' history of lying, framing, falsifying evidence and forensic tests.

We need to get a grip on our government, like yesterday. It's totally out of control!

15 posted on 11/03/2001 1:19:03 PM PST by chantal7
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: Zordas
Isn't there a law that states that any one in law enforcement, the DOJ, and/or judges, prosecuters, etc. that says that if any of the above mentioned lie in a court case involving a person that could get a death sentence and they are found to be lying, that they themselves face a trial and the death sentence for possibly putting an innocent person on death row?
17 posted on 11/03/2001 1:23:32 PM PST by chantal7
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To: chantal7
"The Supreme Court said (in United States vs. Touhy) that a state court judge could not hold an employee of the Department of Justice in contempt for failing to comply with a subpoena if they had been ordered not to provide the information by their superior,"
Is that a double, wait triple negative? Okay I will try and dissect:
You subpoena Joe from the FBI to testify. Normally they would be forced to do so or be held in contempt.
Joe's boss says that Joe can't testify. That nullifies the next step which would be to find Joe in contempt.
This is crap, unless there is a matter of national security at stake. I would just like to see the FBI claim that and have people say "Why? Wasn't it just a right-wing nut that blew up the federal building?"
18 posted on 11/03/2001 1:23:47 PM PST by lelio
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To: EarlyBird
We foolishly put out government into the hands of a criminal who proceeded to fill the upper and mid-management positions of the Department of Justice, the FBI, the CIA, the NTSB, Customs, DEA and other investigatory agencies with other criminals. For the first time in history an incoming president required the resignations of all Federal Attorneys and replaced them all with his cronies.

Eight more years of advancing those with a willingness to go along with Clinton's program and side-lining and marginalizing honest agents has resulted in a totally corrupted government.

George W. Bush has NOT cleaned house as should have been done.

19 posted on 11/03/2001 1:37:42 PM PST by Swordmaker
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To: OKCSubmariner
The FBI and the Justice Dept. are the new Keystone Kops.
20 posted on 11/03/2001 1:45:22 PM PST by Texbob
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To: OKCSubmariner
Ojeda had said that 302 interview reports he had written up on German National Andreas Strassmeyer involvement with McVeigh were never allowed to reach the defense.

This is a very serious violation of the law. I think it was the CIA-linked female prosecutor of McVeigh who made the "Elvis" remark concerning McVeigh and Elohim City. I wonder what Special Agent (He REALLY deserves the title) Ojeda thought about that flip slogan mouthed by the chief federal prosecutor.

21 posted on 11/03/2001 1:46:46 PM PST by roughrider
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To: BlueDogDemo
Thank you and God Bless you for your courage, your service to the nation and to Oklahoma. Thank you for helping MRs Davis and all of on the FreeRepublic who care like you about preserving the Constitution, our freedoms. Our forefathers would be proud of your service and sacrifices.

God in Heaven says well done, thou good and faithful servant. You and the others like you on FR will be like Caleb and Aaron who for being FAITHFUL were protected by God during the 40 years in the wilderness while the rest died.

22 posted on 11/03/2001 1:49:03 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: OKCSubmariner
Ashcroft and Mueller are trying to save their own butts and they honestly believe they are serving America's interests by protecting the institutions of the FBI and DOJ with coverups at all costs. They do not think America could survive if she learned the truth about the corruption in the FBI and DOJ. Ashcroft and Mueller have said they are cleaning up the FBI and DOJ but I doubt they are trying very hard since they are spending most of their time covering up the previous coverups so they can buy time (they say?)to clean up the FBI and DOJ in the future.

Pardon me, Submariner, since I have followed most every one of your posts on this subject, but I don't believe this for a second. IF -- and it's a big IF -- the Bush administration is covering up the cover-ups, there has to be a logical reason why. Just because the American people couldn't survive the relevation that the Clinton FBI was corrupt?

That's a farce.

Political considerations alone would rule this out, much less the moral and ethical considerations which I believe the Bush administration heeds.

Remember, Janet Reno is mounting a gubernatorial challenge to President Bush's brother in Florida. Don't you think that if Reno's DOJ covered up aspects of OKC that the Bushes wouldn't capitalize on it for political purposes? What theory do you have that trumps the political motivations that George and Jeb must have to beat Reno in FLA?

Do you really believe that the Bush administration believes that Americans could not handle hearing about scandal in the previous administration?

To tell you the truth, I'm beginning to think that this John Doe #2 or 3 or 4 or whatever, theory is BS. I just can't conceive of a reason, especially after 9-11, that the Bush administration would continue to cover this up.

Please enlighten me.

23 posted on 11/03/2001 1:57:49 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: OKCSubmariner
Usally when someone or some government deparmnet tries to cover something up, it is because they SCREWED UP BIGTIME. I beleive that one of the main things they are trying to conceal, is the fact that they had prior warning, that the act was going to take place. I think that they might have not been too sure of their source, but the people on the inside of the FBI were nervous enough that that decided not to go to be in the building that day.

Then the nightmare came true and all those innocent civilans that were not privy to the same inside information died. Now they don't want to face the American public with the fact that they gambled with the lives of the public and lost, while they saved their own people. Can you imagine the outrage if this is true? Like I said, when people try to keep something hid, 90% of the time it is a case of CYA.

24 posted on 11/03/2001 1:58:07 PM PST by mississippi red-neck
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To: OKCSubmariner
Can the Justice Department control a state trial? This is messed up and wrong if so.
25 posted on 11/03/2001 2:00:51 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: rwfromkansas
For reply #25:

Yes the Feds can control a state trial (like they controlled the OKC COunty Grand Jury in the OKC bombing case-they manipulated the testimony of FBI agent John Hersely by only allowing him to give controlled answers and in many cases to refuse giving answers!).This extremely unfair and immoral.

It must be overturned or we in America will contine to get steam rolled by police state Fed officials who want world government and who do not want to be held accountable for their screw ups and corruption. Freedom in America will die if this continues. American's citizens are being persecuted by unscrupulous Fed officials

See replies #15 and #18

26 posted on 11/03/2001 2:09:40 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: OKCSubmariner
This is pure, unadulterated, bullsh!t. What Michigan militia group do you belong to, anyway?

Like I said in previous posts (which you have not yet responded to, by the way), I followed every one of your posts about the MidEastern John Doe. You sounded logical and your theories sounded reasonable.

Now, you are sounding like a fanatic. Until you can give me a convincing argument as to why the Bushes would allow Reno to get away with this, when they are running a political campaign against her in FLA, I will disregard your posts.

28 posted on 11/03/2001 2:22:29 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: EarlyBird; BlueDogDemo; golitely; LSJohn; Uncle Bill; Judge Parker; Wallaby
Do you doubt this satement?:

"Ashcroft and Mueller have said they are cleaning up the FBI and DOJ but I doubt they are trying very hard since they are spending most of their time covering up the previous coverups so they can buy time (they say?)to clean up the FBI and DOJ in the future."

Five months ago Ashcroft was hand delivered in person hard evidence in the OKC bombing case of other domestic John DOes (Arizona and Kansas)I positively identitfied with key witnesses and color photos and other evidence. The evidence was explained to Aschcroft and he deliberately chose to do nothing . Read BlueDogDemo's reply for a good description of the ME link. He is a former OKC police officer and a Fed military official. He has more standing than me, believe him for sure. See reply #16 from BlueDog.

Have you not read the recent articles on FR that quote Assistant Defense Secretary Wolfowitz as saying that McVeigh was an Iraqi agent who had Iraqi intell phone nos in his possession? This was confirmed in a world Net daily article , "Dead Men Tell No Lies posted on the FR." I doubt you have yet had time to read all that I have written on the topic of the OKC bombing within the past 15 months I have authored over 30 articles on the OKC bombing case (many in 200 and 2001) Everything I wrote has proven to be correct including Ashcroft's coverups.

Please contact the others in the above reply this and they will provide you all the info and articles you can possibly read to verify what I have written. They are great archivists and know the case extremely well. I hope they can help you. I am very busy right now trying to keep up with all this myself and do not have the time to dig up everything to enlighten you even further.

Also, I was actually being kind to Mueller and ASchcroft in my remarks by saying they are tring to protect institutions-I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. Actually IMO They are both stupid and corrupt for not carrying out the laws of the land regardless of WHY. I do not have to prove or guess why. All I have to prove is what did in fact happen in the OKC case. I will leave the why up to others. The Why question can be a trap that can be used by them to get themsevles out of trouble and avoid the facts of what happened. You do not have to prove motive(why) to prove a crime.

29 posted on 11/03/2001 2:28:22 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: alien2
I believe a key piece here is that it takes ready and available funds to transform a blown up building into a monument within such a short period of time. In my opinion, that is where the truth in all this is likely to be. Who put the wheels in motion with respect to the transformation of that crime scene into a monument? Follow that particular money trail and see where it leads.

Mayor Guilliani? I think he is wanting to turn the World Trade Towers remains into a monument. Is he trying to cover something up too?

30 posted on 11/03/2001 2:29:57 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: OKCSubmariner
The attitude of the government is "Better to let one man die--he's going to die anyway--looking like one of only two involved than to have evidence surface that will a. call into question our handling of the affair and b. put us into a position of actually having to track down somebody who could lead us to a really, really big fish that we'd rather not deal with--ANthrax! ANthrax!", with that cough way of saying "Assh-le! Assh-le!"
31 posted on 11/03/2001 2:33:58 PM PST by aruanan
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To: OKCSubmariner
You do not have to prove motive(why) to prove a crime.

You are really starting to go off the reservation now.

32 posted on 11/03/2001 2:34:40 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: OKCSubmariner
You do not have to prove motive(why) to prove a crime.

Generally, if you cannot provide a motive, juries have a difficult time convicting.

That's why I'm still waiting for a motive that George and Jeb would give Janet a pass on this one.

33 posted on 11/03/2001 2:38:40 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: OKCSubmariner
...and we're supposed to buy the government's stories on TWA 800, Waco, and the Twin Towers?

Why did the tower that was hit off center, with the fuel fed fire ball outside the tower, colapse first? The implosion looked like the planned dropping of obsolete structures by explosive experts.

34 posted on 11/03/2001 2:39:51 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: EarlyBird; LSJohn; Judge Parker; golitely; Uncle Bill
I am from Oklahoma City and I belong to no militias nor have I ever attended any of their meetings anywhere at anytime. I am a conservative Republican and vote regularly.

I am a former nuclear submarine officer and served directly under Adm Rickover. I have investigated the OKC bombing case almost every day for over six and a half years. I have met with and discussed at length the details of the OKC case with the legal counsels of the Senate Intell and Judiciary committes as well as the former Pentagon terrorism advisor Jesse CLear (advisor at the time of the OKC bombing). I know OKC police officers, FBI agents and military officers knoweldgeable about the case including FBI agent Dan Vogel (my wife taught his son in school and she worked with Vogel wife for years)

A clue for you is that Bush replaced few if any significant Fed bureaucrats and officials that were Clintonistas. Tell me why that is? Do You at least agree that Clinton and the Clintonistas coveredup many scandals including Waco and OKC and Chinagate, and Filegate, and Whitewater and Monica gate and , and , .....?If you agree with this then maybe you can understand why things are not being cleaned up under Bush by the Clintonitas that are still there that created the messes and coverups anyway.

I have a question for you. Tell me why Bush has still left so many bad high level Clinton coverup bureucrats in the Bush administration?

LSJohn and Judge Parker, would you like to enlighten EarlyBird.

35 posted on 11/03/2001 2:41:59 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: EarlyBird
You wrote : "Generally, if you cannot provide a motive, juries have a difficult time convicting."

What you wrote is generally NOT TRUE nor should it be if you have an intelligent, well functioning jury. If your evidence is not strong enough to convict without having a motive then you do not deserve to get a conviction. There are many times when guilty parties cannot even tell you themselves their motive or "why" they did a crime.

36 posted on 11/03/2001 2:46:28 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: EarlyBird
Just because you can't pinpoint thier motives, doesn't do away with all of the evidence leading to the conclusion that the justice department is doing the same thing here that they did in the Randy Weaver case. Lying, withholding evidence. Why are they doing it? I don't know. I'd just be speculating. But I don't need to get proof of what the motives are to acknowledge that SOMETHING definitely smells in the way the feds have been handling this.
37 posted on 11/03/2001 2:50:03 PM PST by Wissa
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To: EarlyBird
Do you, as the most well-informed Freeper on this subject, have any sensible theories that would explain WHY the Bush justice administration would want to continue this charade?

This and the recent attempts to seal the records of previous presidents is really starting to make me wonder JUST WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE! Anyone else getting a bit curious?

Looks like you're on the way to waking up to what those of us in the anti-Bushie crowd have felt since GW let the Clinton's slide, abandoned the Klamouth Basin farmers, and kept all Cinton's EOs, expansion of NAFTA, and continued support of the UN financial claims.

Face it. The Murrah building bombing and the Twin Towers disaster have this in common: The goal of public aceptance of the erosion of their civil rights.

38 posted on 11/03/2001 2:50:29 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: EarlyBird
For reply #33;

I never even brought up Jeb Bush. Why are you bringing him in? A diversion?

I wrote that Ashcroft and Mueller were not doing their jobs. You suddenly shifted the discussion from that to somehow trying to claim incorrectly that I wrote (in your words)"George and Jeb" are giving Reno a pass. Do you think George and Jeb are giving Reno a pass? I do not know myself. Why would you say that or try to incorrectly say that I did when I did not?

39 posted on 11/03/2001 2:53:16 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: OKCSubmariner
Ashcroft and Mueller are trying to save their own butts and they honestly believe they are serving America's interests by protecting the institutions of the FBI and DOJ with coverups at all costs.

It is my dearest hope that your child-like faith in our leaders is justified.

40 posted on 11/03/2001 2:56:37 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: OKCSubmariner
A clue for you is that Bush replaced few if any significant Fed bureaucrats and officials that were Clintonistas. Tell me why that is? Do You at least agree that Clinton and the Clintonistas coveredup many scandals including Waco and OKC and Chinagate, and Filegate, and Whitewater and Monica gate and , and , .....?If you agree with this then maybe you can understand why things are not being cleaned up under Bush by the Clintonitas that are still there that created the messes and coverups anyway. no reason why Bush would continue Clinton's legacy.

Of course Bush has to deal with some people of the Clinton era. Do you really believe that any incoming president can immediately clear all remnants of the previous administration, especially when the previous administration ran 8 years?

What do you want Bush to do? Conduct a Stalin purge of the entire executive branch in the middle of a war, and let it be without leadership at this critical time?

Please.

41 posted on 11/03/2001 2:59:53 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: rightofrush
From reply #29 for reply #40:

"I was actually being kind to Mueller and ASchcroft in my remarks by saying they are tring to protect institutions-I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. Actually IMO they are both stupid and corrupt for not carrying out the laws of the land regardless of WHY"

42 posted on 11/03/2001 3:00:04 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: EarlyBird
Why are you foolish enough to believe that the current administration has any power over the bureaucratic colossus that is the Federal government?. Do you really believe that the Bush administration would expose any type of criminal wrongdoing on the part of the previous adminstration??. When have you ever seen the government going after their own?. It never happens. The first rule of government is self preservation.

---max

44 posted on 11/03/2001 3:02:26 PM PST by max61
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To: EarlyBird
Now, you are sounding like a fanatic. Until you can give me a convincing argument as to why the Bushes would allow Reno to get away with this, when they are running a political campaign against her in FLA, I will disregard your posts.

Wheels within wheels. The success of those who would do the constitution ill is measured by those who still buy into Bushie BS.

45 posted on 11/03/2001 3:03:18 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: chantal7
If that were true Mark Fuhrman would be dead.
46 posted on 11/03/2001 3:04:41 PM PST by sabe@q.com
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To: alien2
But if the track record is any indicator, I'd bet that this thread will just whither and die.

Well, you've got one thing right at least.

47 posted on 11/03/2001 3:05:02 PM PST by EarlyBird
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To: OKCSubmariner
Have you ever heard of the word "appeal"?

Terry Nichol's has the right to appeal the decision if he doesn't like it.

48 posted on 11/03/2001 3:06:29 PM PST by sabe@q.com
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: EarlyBird; LSJohn; Judge Parker; golitely
For reply #41.

Bush is taking way too long to replace the Clintonistas in the Fed bureaucracy. He has replaced very few. BUsh has had more than enough time to find plenty of well qualified conservative Republicans to replace the Clinton Bozos. Please, Please do not expect me to believe otherwise, I won't buy the excuses.

I expected and voted for much more, much better, much sooner to be done with dignity and legally and in good taste so the "poor Clintonitas" won't feel they were unfairly purged. Removal and replacement does not require "left wing political corectness" however.

50 posted on 11/03/2001 3:09:43 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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