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What gun(s) to purchase & other gun questions.

Posted on 11/05/2001 12:11:09 PM PST by Carol Roberts

My wife and I just obtained our Basic Firearm Safety Certificates. At the range we rented a Glock 9mm, S&W 38, and Sig Sauer 45. I found the recoil almost identical on each gun we tested (the wife didn't shoot the .45). About 25 years ago I shot a S&W 357 with magnum rounds and I remember the recoil was much more noticeable.

My wife is comfortable with the S&W 38 revolver and the Glock 9mm, but she only used the .38 in single action mode as she wasn't used to pulling the trigger all the way back, so the Glock 9mm will probably be best for her. She's not that strong so I'm a little concerned with her sliding the 9mm in a "situation". We'll be shooting our guns weekly for a while, but feel an urgency to make a purchase now. Comments/suggesions?

I'm interested in something bigger, perhaps Glock 10mm/357/.40/.45. According to glock the .40 caliber (Glock 23) "are so impressive that the FBI recently adopted them for issue".

From what we're told, it's not that difficult to get a concealed weapons permit where we live. So that raises the question of getting the smaller versions for concealment. Which raises accuracy, firepower, etc issues. Comments/suggesions?

BTW, when referring to Glock guns, is it best to refer to their model number or caliber?

For home protection I was also thinking of getting a 12 gauge shotgun (just gotta get close). The Winchester 1300 looks good. What's your opinion for using the 12 gauge for home protection?

My gut feel for my myself (not my wife's weapon) is the Glock 10mm and some .38 or .357 revolver for an ankle strapped backup, although I'm not too sure on brands for the revolver... Suggestions? Between the Glock 10mm, .356, .40 & .45, is the bigger the bore really the better? I guess that all depends, but what's your pick and why?

Of course there's my favorite from high school days/daze, the AR15, which I haven't really thought about since high school but always thought it would be a great weapon to help protect the neighborhood, such as in a "Red Dawn" situation.

Throwing knives are another issue... Suggestions?

Is there someplace to discuss firearm questions/issues on the net? Here?


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1 posted on 11/05/2001 12:11:09 PM PST by Carol Roberts
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To: Carol Roberts
Forget the throwing knives. That's almost like throwing a loaded gun at your enemy.

Throwing knives take lots of practice to learn and are seldom if ever used effectively in a tense situation. They are more likely to just piss someone off than to seriously injure them.

If you want something quiet but deadly, check out a pistol-type crossbow.

2 posted on 11/05/2001 12:17:48 PM PST by mfulstone
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To: Carol Roberts
I would go with the glocks in 9mm if your going to the small one easy to control better to hit you target then to miss it if your afraid of the recoil the S@W 38 is a good gun and well get the job done. With good ammo that is a high end jacketed hollow pt they all work about the same .
3 posted on 11/05/2001 12:22:10 PM PST by riverrunner
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To: mfulstone
If you want something quiet but deadly, check out a pistol-type crossbow.

Now that's something I hadn't even considered. Thanks.

4 posted on 11/05/2001 12:22:22 PM PST by Carol Roberts
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To: Carol Roberts
Why do you need a 10mm ? the Glock .40 is a beautiful gun and if you put a crimson trace laser site on it, you can't go wrong. I have several friends who swear by this gun... if the 10mm is so good why didn't the feds adopt it. Remember... Bigger is not always better
PS also think about a baretta
5 posted on 11/05/2001 12:24:10 PM PST by Swingj
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To: Swingj
I like my Glock model 19 a lot. A women can work the slide too if you teach them to hold it with both hands sort of cross ways across the chest. Just be sure it's pointed in the right direction. The .40 cal might be nice for more power and the Sig .357 adjustment kits make the model 19 as powerful as the .357 Magnum.
6 posted on 11/05/2001 12:28:50 PM PST by elhombrelibre
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To: Carol Roberts
I shoot the 40 cal. Glock on the 27 frame. Pretty small frame, so the grip/feel takes a little getting used to, but it is easy to conceal. All and all, very happy with it.
7 posted on 11/05/2001 12:29:58 PM PST by DKM
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To: Swingj
*pulls out his notebook and takes copious notes*
8 posted on 11/05/2001 12:30:24 PM PST by Green Knight
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To: Swingj
The main reason the Feds didn't adopt the 10mm is they claimed the recoil was too much. A 10mm is a very powerful round. It has comparable muzzle energy to a .41 magnum. I would take the .45 Sig or the .40 Glock. I am not a big fan of recent Beretta pistols.
9 posted on 11/05/2001 12:30:25 PM PST by wjcsux
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To: Carol Roberts
My comments.

I almost never tell anyone what they should purchase as a firearm becuase everyone is different. For a sidearm the best purchase is usually one that is relatively inexpensive to shoot. This gives the biggest advantage to the 9mm. It should be comfortable for both you and your wife. It must be reliable and easy to do the routine maintenence. For caliber any of the calibers mentioned will provide good emergency self defense protection. There are many compact easier to conceal variants in all the above callibers.

I would recommend finding a firearms dealer who is both honest and forthright asl arround at the range and where you got your course and purchase a good used first sidearm, the twelve gauge shotgun is one of the best home defense weapons ever devised and has been used in combat alongside many of the battle rifles. The Winchester is exellent and if you are comfortable with it that is what counts.

As to a rifle the AR15 variants are exellent and it is hard to really go wrong with that route. Here again a reliable gun dealer with used weapons is probably the most economical route.

In the final analysis you must choose what feels best to you.

Stay well - stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown

10 posted on 11/05/2001 12:30:54 PM PST by harpseal
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To: wjcsux
I own a .41 magnum, and it is too much recoil for a quick shooting situation. The recoil can be quite a long stretch.
11 posted on 11/05/2001 12:32:55 PM PST by elhombrelibre
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To: Carol Roberts
You cant go wrong with any of the .40 Glocks(23/27).

You mentioned the 12 gauge for home defense - always a good choice. Winchester or Moss. are always good and not too expensive.

You might want to consider a Marlin lever action carbine rifle. They are pretty short(18 to 20 in barel) and come in .38 and .357 models. These hold 8 to 10 rounds. You can conceal these even in a vehicle pretty easily.

12 posted on 11/05/2001 12:33:13 PM PST by FreeTally
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To: Carol Roberts
As far as a shotgun goes, a pump action shotgun is the best. The sound of the action is aenough to scare off most people. You don't have to overspend. A remmington 870 combo is inexpensive and with the short barrel, would be great for home defense. besides, OO Buck works wonders in the dark... just aim in the general direction and you are guaranteed to take out at least 4 feet of sheet rock along with your target.
13 posted on 11/05/2001 12:33:26 PM PST by Swingj
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To: Carol Roberts
I would suggest a .357 "Body Guard" there's no hammer to get caught on your cothing. I would suggest "Glazer Safety Rounds" as your ammo. No riccochet and won't go through drywall to hit the kids in the event of missing an intruder. It is a deadly round to humans.
14 posted on 11/05/2001 12:33:39 PM PST by conway
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To: Carol Roberts
Wow, the certificate in firearms use is a great way to go! I am trying to get my wife enrolled now. Anyway, if you are looking for something big in a pistol, check out the .50 cal Desert Eagle. As for the wife, why not try the .380 auto as it is a little lighter than the standard 9mm and it still packs a wallop!
15 posted on 11/05/2001 12:33:50 PM PST by samuel_adams_us
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To: Carol Roberts
I am a small woman with small hands and I prefer a colt 45 with a short barrel(officer's) and short trigger. I find I have less recoil with the shorter barrel length in 45 than with a 9mm. A trick I learned about racking the slide. I hold the slide steady with my left hand and push the gun forward with my right hand. I find is much easier and quicker than pulling the slide back. I am a right handed shooter so a left hander would need to reverse the above. Try it and I think you will find that is easier to rack the gun rather than the slide.

Good luck to your wife and I welcome another woman shooter. If possible before you decide let her try a short barrel Colt 45 or something built on that frame with the short trigger and I think that you will find that it will be a great fit for a small hand. I can even manager a double stack para-ordance 45. Hope this helps.

16 posted on 11/05/2001 12:34:19 PM PST by hd5574
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To: Green Knight
ditto that
17 posted on 11/05/2001 12:35:22 PM PST by the bottle let me down
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To: Carol Roberts
Mossberg 88 12 gauge shotgun is inexpensive and effective. Don't let the term "scattergun" fool you though. You need to practice with it also, to be effective at hitting targets. Of course, the roar and the flash by themselves can be effective at making a bad guy skeedaddle.

/john

18 posted on 11/05/2001 12:35:33 PM PST by JRandomFreeper
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To: Carol Roberts
Renting guns at a range can give a skewed idea of performance, because to ensure the longevity of the pieces, the range generally requires that you use THEIR ammo, which they reload at more modest powder levels and pressure than standard store bought stuff. Thus, I have to figure, the reason that recoil on the 9mm feels virtually identical to the .45ACP.

If you review data results for penetration/killing power on ordnance gel/goat tests, .45ACP and .357mag are right up there, but the .40's no slouch either. The Sig 220P is a great piece (I love Sigs.) Federal HydraShok is a nice cartridge in 45, I'm partial to Remington Golden Saber in .357 (have a nice Ruger SP101.)

The Sig, whether in 9mm or .45ACP is DA/SA; DA if you prefer to pull the hammer on the first shot, then SA thereafter, or cock first and be SA all the way.

You won't go wrong with the major calibers... don't be thrown off by the "locked and cocked" set who insist that 1911 .45 is the ONLY way to go. But whatever you guys choose, endeavor to fully master it (remember: better 1 hit with a .22 than 7 misses with a .45)

19 posted on 11/05/2001 12:37:27 PM PST by my trusty sig
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To: wjcsux
Correct... the recoil effects your second and third ect rounds. The .40 with hollow points does wonders
20 posted on 11/05/2001 12:37:28 PM PST by Swingj
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Carol Roberts
Shotguns:Before you buy, check out Mossberg. Specifically 590. Has passed Military Specifications, torture tests, etc. Holds 13 rounds including 4 in the speedfeed stock.

Pistols:Check out CZ-75B. Takes hi-cap mags. 9MM. Dependable weapon. GLOCKS are good but $$. I stay with 9MM. Ammo plentiful. Federal or Corbon gives an added boost. 10MM rather hard to find ammo.

.Rifle:Nothing wrong with ARs. I have a Colt MT6700. Best one I have ever owned. A real tack driver. Also consider an AK. An "all weather weapon." Buy NIB.Stick with better models, avoid those that have seen inside of "Cousin Earl's" gun shop. SLR-95 is best AK I have owned. Very accurate out of box-for an AK. Ammo cheap-1K rounds for $65. I rather like the thumbhole stock. Fits a hoghead like me better. Ballistically close to .30-.30. Magazines cheap. $5-10. Check the gun boards and manufacturers websites for further info. TONS of stuff out there! Good luck!

22 posted on 11/05/2001 12:39:53 PM PST by donozark
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To: Carol Roberts
It should always come down to what YOU/Wife are comfortable with. A weapon is useless if you are afraid to use it in a "situation". Myself, I've own/owned many handguns, but I've used and carried the Glock 19 (9mm) since 1991 and still love it. Some prefer larger calibers, I love a .45, but they can be a handful for some people. I believe that the 10mm tends to over penetrate in an urban setting. When all else fails look at what the professionals carry, the FBI has recently issued the SA .45 as their carry weapons.
23 posted on 11/05/2001 12:41:26 PM PST by ScreamingFist
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To: FreeTally
"You might want to consider a Marlin lever action carbine rifle. They are pretty short(18 to 20 in barel) and come in .38 and .357 models."

And the Winchester Trapper (18 inch barrel) comes in .44 Mag. :)

24 posted on 11/05/2001 12:43:36 PM PST by ScreamingFist
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To: my trusty sig
Sorry, "DA if you prefer to pull the trigger (with hammer down) for the first shot."
25 posted on 11/05/2001 12:47:17 PM PST by my trusty sig
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To: Menmy38; LibertyGirl77
Ping for later.
26 posted on 11/05/2001 12:49:39 PM PST by LibertyGirl77
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To: Carol Roberts
One word- Penetration! All of the guns that you mentioned are NOT good for home defense, because those firearms are too powerful. An ideal home defense weapon is a pump action .410 shotgun. There are 000 buckshot rounds available in .410 caliber. Each round contains three 000 buck pellets. Each pellet is the equivalent of a .25 caliber round. The 000 buckshot will stop an intruder, but won't shoot through the walls of your house- so you won't be hitting your kids in the next room.

Besides, the slide action of chambering a round (a.k.a. "racking" the slide) is enough to send most intruders running! THAT is ideal!!!

27 posted on 11/05/2001 12:50:34 PM PST by Destructor
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To: Carol Roberts
Pistol: Glock (best combo of durability, reliability, ease of use, and parts/repair)
Caliber: the largest caliber both of you are comfortable with (fewer ammo types rolling around the house the better)
Size: the smallest model you're comfortable with (easier to conceal than big models). Note that the larger calibers (.45) are wider than the other models.

Shotgun: Mossberg 590 with ghost-ring sights and parkerized or marinecote finish. High capacity (8+1 rounds), tough (one of very few military-approved models), built for defense, no room for confusion.

Throwing knives: ...you're going to give the bad guy your knife? uh...no.

28 posted on 11/05/2001 12:50:43 PM PST by ctdonath2
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To: Carol Roberts
Question: Why would anybody in their right mind throw away a perfectly good knife?
29 posted on 11/05/2001 12:51:39 PM PST by Destructor
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Zordas
Also... never under estimate the bark of a dog. Even the smallest dog barking is usually enough to ward off an intruder.

31 posted on 11/05/2001 12:52:55 PM PST by Swingj
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To: Carol Roberts
Don't forget TRAINING. Both of you go spend a week at Lethal Force Institute (best for beginners), Gunsite, or Thunder Ranch. Don't let cost stop you - not getting serious training will cost you more.
32 posted on 11/05/2001 12:53:31 PM PST by ctdonath2
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To: Carol Roberts
Another plus for a .410 pump shotgun is that it is not too powerful for a woman to shoot. A woman can shoot it from the hip. So that is another advantage to a .410!
33 posted on 11/05/2001 12:55:06 PM PST by Destructor
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To: Swingj
I notice that everyone is saying .40 or higher for caliber when a nice little .22 Ruger MKII Auto would more than do the trick. The bigger calibers will give you more knock down power but dead is dead whether it's a .22, .45ACP or 10 Gauge.
34 posted on 11/05/2001 12:56:14 PM PST by samuel_adams_us
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To: Carol Roberts
Most of the "what gun is best" threads bring out a wide array of preferences for one make, model, cartridge. I will go a different direction and recommend you invest in quality training, then make your gun selections. My suggestion is contact Gunsite (Paulden, Arizona.) Their website is a good place to start (www.gunsite.com)

I have taken three week-long courses there and recommend them without any hesitation. However there are other schools with good reputations (Thunder Ranch in Texas, for example.) Mental and physical training are more important than specific weapon selection IMHO.

I will be happy to make weapon recommendations, but only via freepmail. I don't have interest in all the uproar that results from such exchanges on threads.

35 posted on 11/05/2001 12:56:30 PM PST by toddst
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To: Carol Roberts
Well, I'm a relative amatuer but my opinion is that a revolver is the way to go. Simple, reliable, easy to operate.

Semi-Automatics can jam, though rare. They've also got safety's and such that you could screw up at a bad moment. Shotguns require two hands and you can't be prone. If you are injured or in an ackward position it might be difficult to use.

I got my first gun two years ago (a pump action shot gun), but after much discussion and reading on the topic, I'm convinced that a good revolver is the way to go.

Also I've found that I'm much more acurate with a revolver over a semi-auto.

I have a Ruger GP-100 .357 magnum in Stainless Steel with 4" barrel and adjustable sights. You can also use .38 special rounds in the .357 if you are concerned with recoil, but I think it's a matter of practice, the recoil is really no big deal at all.

I've found that in addition to being a practical means of security and peace of mind, it's actually a bunch of fun too. Good luck!

36 posted on 11/05/2001 12:57:16 PM PST by NC_Libertarian
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To: Carol Roberts
If you had to get the Basic Firearms Safety Certificate, I assume you are living in California. If so, you have until Jan 1, 2003 to get your pistols/revolvers. After that, the BSFC will be useless and you will have to go through a lot more senseless red tape to obtain the New, Improved California "Safety"/Gun License. Never mind that its unconstitutional; the Governor and the wonderful Cal commie legislature want to be sure that those who buy guns are "safe"; what they really want to do is ban/confiscate all privately held arms. (They will play/pay hell trying to do that.)

I am a big fan of the Model 1911 A1 .45 auto; however, if you can indeed obtain a CCW in California, and you really intend to carry often, then something that doesn't weigh so much, or bulge so much under a light coat/shirt/jacket is just the ticket. The weight consideration is probably the reason that THE cop pistol is the Glock Model 22 (or the smaller version the Glock 23) (the .40 Smith and Wesson cartridge.)The Glock Model 21 in .45 ACP or the Model 20 in 10 mm is quite a bit larger than the the other Glocks.

If I was going to carry, the Model 22 (or 23) would be my choice. However, if your previous experience with (I loathe to use the word) "handguns" is limited or non-existent, and you are not going to commit a lot of time to training (preferably with a qualified combat pistol instructor) and practice, then a short-barreled revolver (like the Smith and Wesson J-frame .357's) is just right. The revolver is a lot simpler to use and a lot safer in many respects.

As far as the AR 15 is concerned, unless you already owned one prior to Jan 1 2000, you are out of luck if you live in California. They have simply been banned (again, unconstitutionally in my mind, but the corrupt Cal SC has said its just fine). The Winchester 12 ga is good; I prefer the Remington 870 pump. Its probably the "work horse" shotgun in the US.

37 posted on 11/05/2001 1:00:36 PM PST by 45Auto
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To: Carol Roberts
Considering your inexperience I would suggest that both of you stick with a double action .357 magnum revolver. It is simple (no safeties, no magazines), reliable, and when you use .38 special cartriges cheap to practice with, and when you use .357 mag Hydrashock cartriges, has excellent stopping power.

If the primary purpose of the pistol is concealed carry, make sure it is hammerless (to prevent snagging when drawn) and light (do you REALLY want a 37 oz., 6 in. barrrel pistol to carry around everywhere?)

If the primayr purpose is target and home protection, go ahead and get the larger framed model.

However, I NEVER recommend a semi auto to a novice.

P.S. stay away from the traitor gun mfr S&W. However, it is okay to buy used guns as S&W makes nothing from the sale.

38 posted on 11/05/2001 1:01:54 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: samuel_adams_us
The bigger calibers will give you more knock down power but dead is dead whether it's a .22, .45ACP or 10 Gauge.

Killing is not the issue.

Stopping the attacker is.

A small caliber well-placed may kill an assailant, but it may not stop him from killing you first.

His dying on the lawn six hours later, or the next day in a hospital does you little good.

39 posted on 11/05/2001 1:01:57 PM PST by DrNo
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To: DrNo
One shot in the head will stop him his tracks, not on the lawn for 6 hours but dead on the floor. Personally I don't aim the pistol unless I plan on killing what is front of it.
40 posted on 11/05/2001 1:03:12 PM PST by samuel_adams_us
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To: Carol Roberts
The firing line - The best place to go for firearms info.

Here's a simple rule for starting out:
In a revolver, get a 357 - 4 inch barrel is a good comprimise (no new S&W!!!)
In a semi: get a 9mm

Why? Cost of ammo. 9mm is the cheapest to shoot in a semi besides 22. The more you practice, the better you will be when you need it. Missing 5 times with a .40 s&w (more recoil than a 9mm) isn't better than 1 hit with a 9mm.

a 357 is a good revolver load- you can shoot cheaper 38 specials in it, and use .357 for defense, or even a .38+p load and still have very good stopping power.

The FBI went with a 10mm initially after a shootout in which some agents died. They found that many couldn't handle the recoil, and some agents couldn't hold the gun properly. They went with 40 as a comprimise. Many people even say the recoil of a 40 is sharper than gold ole' 45 acp.

BTW, did I mention not to get a new S&W??????

41 posted on 11/05/2001 1:09:36 PM PST by good_ash
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To: Carol Roberts
I'll probably get flamed for suggesting a "small" caliber handgun, but the Bersa/Firestorm (sold under both brand names) has a very nice little .380 compact that has minimal kick and fits a smaller hand nicely. Also, not too hard to rack the slide back. Comes with a nice price (mid 200's) -- please no cracks about saturday night specials.... Not to say that the 9mm Glock is not a good choice, either.

As far as shotguns go, the Mossberg 590 is, as far as I can tell, indestructable, but you have to ask yourself if you need to cough up that kind of money for a home defense weapon. The Remington 870 is a couple of hundred dollars cheaper, and probably more than adequate.

As far as edged weapons go, I'd suggest extensive training before you go that route. That's got to be anyone's last resort. Really.

42 posted on 11/05/2001 1:09:39 PM PST by absalom01
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To: samuel_adams_us
That is the point. I take all courses available so that shooting doesn't need to be an option. Alarm System, Strong locks (doors and windows) small dog (barks at everything) I have a pump action shotgun (for sound effect) and if none of this scares off an intruder... then all bets are off. Each Person needs to take into account the fact that all human life is important and shooting a person should be a last resort. Dead is Dead and you can't take it back so be sure of your actions. But if comes down to it I want to make sure my firearm does the job and does it well.
43 posted on 11/05/2001 1:10:46 PM PST by Swingj
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To: Carol Roberts
Most of it is what you feel comfortable shooting. Continue to try different guns at the range. Also ammo will be as big a choice a gun make/model. A 9mm with a good anti-personnel round will do a better job than say a 40 S&W with a round more designed for the range. Any of the calibers you mentioned should do the job just fine with the right ammo.
44 posted on 11/05/2001 1:11:21 PM PST by garycooper
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To: absalom01
A friend of mine who is a cop carries a .380 Browning in her purse. She claims it is the perfect gun for up close encounters, accurate, light, packs plenty of punch, 8 rounds, 9 if have the clip full and one in the pipe.
45 posted on 11/05/2001 1:11:58 PM PST by samuel_adams_us
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To: samuel_adams_us
"a nice little .22 Ruger MKII Auto would more than do the trick. The bigger calibers will give you more knock down power.."

Gotta disagree. I own a couple of long barreled .22 pistols, and while I certainly wouldn't feel naked armed with one, and they might be a reasonable choice for someone with arthritis, they are a lousy choice overall- ALL HANDGUNS ARE UNDERPOWERED- that includes your 357, your .45, your .40, what have you. Compared to center fire rifle rounds, handguns are weak, anemic little things. "Knockdown" power is a myth- I had a 9mm Triton +P go through my groin, down my hamstring, and out the back of my leg. I didn't even know I'd been hit- the muzzle blast of the gun stung my testicles so much I didn't even know I was bleeding until I saw the blood on the ground.

It didn't knock me down, it didn't stun me, I was still functional for a while. A .22, unless it hits dead on in the heart/head would be much less persuasive.

A .22 would be better than nothing, but certainly not much of a first choice.

46 posted on 11/05/2001 1:12:54 PM PST by fourdeuce82d
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To: Carol Roberts
I am sure that you will get a lot of recommendations for everyone favorite gun. Based on years of carrying, I would find one that you can carry every day and that you will not leave at home or in the car. Locate a holster that works for you and then find the gun to fit. I have hundreds of dollars in holsters that turned out to not be what I needed. All the calibers will do what you want if you hit your target. A .380 is just as good as a .45 if you hit your target in the right place. A .45 in a non lethal spot is worse than using a .22.
47 posted on 11/05/2001 1:14:06 PM PST by Southernboy
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To: Carol Roberts
My choices, for what it's worth:

Shotgun: Remington 870, 18" barrel, pistol-grip buttstock, 7-rd capacity; "00" buckshot. I carry it in my truck, on the floorboard or under the back seat, and at night, it's by the bed.
Rifle: British Lee/Enfield .303 Mark I No. 5 paratrooper's carbine, with original peep sights.
My pistol of choice would be a Kimber 1911 .45 ACP, with 10-round magazine. That'll be after I acquire my CCW.

I bought my wife a Kel-Tec 9MM. I had problems at first with this unit, where it had a nose-dive jam every time it was down to the last three rounds in the clip. New clip solved that one; hammerless double action, so no snags in purse or pocket.

48 posted on 11/05/2001 1:14:18 PM PST by Marauder
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To: Swingj
So I guess the difference between a .45 in the head and a .22 in the head is a lot? I don't think so, as a long time hunter and user of guns I know that I don't need a canon to protect my home.
49 posted on 11/05/2001 1:16:17 PM PST by samuel_adams_us
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To: fourdeuce82d
Well I probably wouldn't be shooting at the groin now would I? I need a big gun to do the job, just a half decent shot. Like any normally good sniper, one shot, one kill.
50 posted on 11/05/2001 1:18:30 PM PST by samuel_adams_us
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