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To: ArGee
Warning! This post is long because I cut and pasted several verses from the Tanak into it, but you asked me for the reference. I included them in case you did not have your copy handy. My apologies if it is too long.

Yes.. I was tempted to say I didn't read it, because it was too long...

I know you know where the suffering servant verses in Yesha-yahu are located.

You didn't mention the book, I have to guess that you mean Isaiah... but the suffering servant IS ISRAEL, the nation, and NOT a person!!

Just for the sake of clarification - is that why you believe Messiah was sent, to give us an example to emulate? I will tell you that Christians do not believe this. We know we can never emulate Yeshua. We will target Him because his perfection is what we are asked for, but we know we can not be perfect because we are not G-d. What you have said is actually very close to blasphemy to Christians.

Yes, I know. Christians don't WANT to have to TRY to be better or more spiritual. They don't want to be responsible for their actions. They'd rather play the 'grace' card and let others do the work for them! ie Jesus. That is why the idea of Satan is different for Christians than it is for Jews. The Christians say that they are tempted by Satan. Jews feel they are tempted by themselves, Satan's whose purpose is to accuse man in front of the Heavenly Court The idea is to overcome temptation, not blame temptation on Satan. Its just the theological 'blame game'. etc..]

See also from Psalm 22

7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 8 "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."

Sound like what the leaders said while Yeshua was on the Cross?

Why, yes, it does... and so did all the quotes I previously gave regarding Jesus and the archtype similarities. Why is it that you only select and accept those that you WANT? And all the correlations I gave are not acceptable?????

Does that mean that everyone who has been pierced by the sword since the beginning of time is an enemy of G-d?

Of course not... but the overwhelming amount of verses pertaining to the archtypes and Jesus makes it very hard to ignore.

I did not read what you wrote, but as you see I was aware of the fact. If this was not a Jewish form of punishment, why did David write about it?

Probably for the same reason that Isaiah and Ezekiel wrote about it! lol

Isaiah 14:4 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:12-16 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

And we come full circle...morning star/lucifer... you might actually try READING the posts. It would make my posts a lot shorter since I wouldn't have to REPEAT myself! #240.

Isaiah 14:19 "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet."

Ezekiel 32:7-8 "And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD."

I won't repost all the verses to support the archtypes since it would make this far too long.

Don't even bother replying since you can't be bothered to READ.

252 posted on 11/09/2001 12:21:15 PM PST by ET(end tyranny)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
You didn't mention the book, I have to guess that you mean Isaiah... but the suffering servant IS ISRAEL, the nation, and NOT a person!!

That is a valid interpretation. Given Yeshua's life, can you not accept that the suffering servant is the Messiah is also a valid interpretation? If Yeshua had never been born and taught what He taught there might never be any reason to suspect that this was Messiah. But, then again, I believe the Rabbis taught it was Messiah until it became necessary to counter the Nazarene sect. I could be wrong about that, though.

Yes, I know. Christians don't WANT to have to TRY to be better or more spiritual. They don't want to be responsible for their actions. They'd rather play the 'grace' card and let others do the work for them! ie Jesus.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I know there are Christians who are exactly what you say, but we are discussing theology, not people who abuse what G-d has said. I don't know whether you are Chassidic or Orthodox or Liberal or what, but do you not allow for differences within the belief system?

That is why the idea of Satan is different for Christians than it is for Jews. The Christians say that they are tempted by Satan. Jews feel they are tempted by themselves, Satan's whose purpose is to accuse man in front of the Heavenly Court The idea is to overcome temptation, not blame temptation on Satan. Its just the theological 'blame game'. etc..]

What you have just described is classic Christian theology. There are some who have tossed that understanding so they can blame the devil. As Flip Wilson used to say (Geraldine Jones) "The Devil made me do it, honey!" But that is not classic Christian theology. Neither is it classic Christian theology to claim that Satan does not exist. But there are Christians who teach those too.

Why, yes, it does... and so did all the quotes I previously gave regarding Jesus and the archtype similarities. Why is it that you only select and accept those that you WANT? And all the correlations I gave are not acceptable?????

Because of the question I posed to you that you appear to take up later.

Me: Does that mean that everyone who has been pierced by the sword since the beginning of time is an enemy of G-d?

You:Of course not... but the overwhelming amount of verses pertaining to the archtypes and Jesus makes it very hard to ignore.

Your version of overwhelming and mine differ. But even if I agreed, the simple fact of the empty tomb would trump them. For all you know I fit many verses of the archetypes of the enemies of G-d. That doesn't make me one of them. If you and I finally met, and you saw the Spirit of G-d descend on me like a dove and announce that I was the apple of His eye (hardly likely) wouldn't you overlook similarities between me and Lucifer?

Probably for the same reason that Isaiah and Ezekiel wrote about it! lol

Isaiah 14:4 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Hmmm, I don't see any reference to crucifixion of either David or the Messiah.

Isaiah 14:12-16 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Nope, no reference to crucifixion there either.

Now let me ask you a question. Suppose the king of Babylon had actually ascended to the throne of Heaven. Would you believe the king of Babylon or the prophet? The prophet was right about the king of Babylon, but Yeshua was not cast down into the pit, as Messiah will not be. Yeshua did not see corruption, as Messiah will not.

I won't repost all the verses to support the archtypes since it would make this far too long.

Thank you, since I have already responded to this issue. If you aren't convinced by the empty tomb, it's agree to disagree time. The empty tomb convinces me.

Shalom.

253 posted on 11/09/2001 12:56:30 PM PST by ArGee
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