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Request suggestion for special use sidearm
Noggin ^ | 08NOV01 | gnarledmaw

Posted on 11/08/2001 6:58:00 AM PST by gnarledmaw

Please forgive the vanity but I knew this group would have some of the best advice.

I find myself in a situation where I need a special purpose sidearm and Im having difficulty finding one that meets what has apparently become a rather unique need.

As some of you may know, I run a small, rather primitive homestead and use permacultural methods as much as possible. The intent is to grow as much food as possible for my free ranging stock without my intervention. This creates a situation where because of the seasonal over abundance of food, various pests stop by to take advantage of it and of course, where ever there are pests and small stock on the menu, the predators move in. Ive had some degree of success controlling the uninvited guests but because my property lies along various types of habitats that are criss crossed with wildlife corridors I soon find myself with and influx of new immigrants in the form of coyotes, foxes, 'possums, racoons, skunks, etc.

Often while completing my chores for the day Ill run across a beastie that obviously intends to cause problems and Id like to deal with it before it does. Ive attempted to carry a carbine with me but, as youve guessed, it was never nearby when needed. Obviously, I needed a pistol. Something like a .45acp splatters skunks all over the chicken coop (just trust me on that) and something small like the .22lr is useless against moving coyotes in the 30-40yd range (the max range Ill likely be shooting pop up varmints at).


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The question then is, what model/caliber combination would you suggest as the best to attempt to cover all these bases? Keep in mind that its raining and youre covered in mud/manure, or youre standing knee deep in snow with a 125lb sack of grain on your shoulder. The weapon shouldnt require a full size leg holster as it will constantly be in the way and gathering garbage while working.

Am I questing for a mythical beast?

1 posted on 11/08/2001 6:58:00 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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To: *bang_list
bang
2 posted on 11/08/2001 6:58:23 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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To: gnarledmaw
I believe you can get a .45 caliber handgun that fires .410 rounds - that would be very effective at close range against varmints without having to worry about aim very much.
3 posted on 11/08/2001 6:59:32 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: gnarledmaw
YOu can get all kinds of good advice here, but you should really go to a trusted firearms dealer or range operator to try a few out for fit, feel, comfort and efficacy. Good luck.
4 posted on 11/08/2001 7:00:29 AM PST by mgc1122
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To: gnarledmaw
30-40yd range (the max range Ill likely be shooting pop up varmints at).

At that range, the .410 wouldn't do much more than sting their hides...

5 posted on 11/08/2001 7:02:13 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy
I believe you can get a .45 caliber handgun that fires .410 rounds - that would be very effective at close range against varmints without having to worry about aim very much.

You can also get shotshell rounds in .45. Might want to consider getting a spare clip, and carrying a clip of solid rounds and a clip of shotshells.

6 posted on 11/08/2001 7:04:05 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: gnarledmaw
Try this at the TALK section of this site.

www.shooters.com

Personaly, I think you are looking at a 6 inch .357 Magnum revolver. Use .38 Mid Range Wadcutters for the smaller/messy critters. Full house magnums for the larger ones.

7 posted on 11/08/2001 7:05:55 AM PST by TOMH1
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To: tacticalogic
You can also get shotshell rounds in .45. Might want to consider getting a spare clip, and carrying a clip of solid rounds and a clip of shotshells.

That would be a good solution, as it would cover both longer shots at coyotes and close-in shots at smaller varmints.

8 posted on 11/08/2001 7:05:58 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: gnarledmaw
Make a ZIP gun. recycles old car ariels, tubing or what ever; rubber bands; wood; nails and accepts the calibur of your choice
9 posted on 11/08/2001 7:06:27 AM PST by Henchman
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To: gnarledmaw
Have you tried anything intermediate between .45 and .22? Maybe a long-barreled Glock 9mm with night sights?

Splattered skunks do provide a difficult twist on this problem...

10 posted on 11/08/2001 7:08:05 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: dirtboy; gnarledmaw
I believe you can get a .45 caliber handgun that fires .410 rounds ...30-40yd range (the max range Ill likely be shooting pop up varmints at)...At that range, the .410 wouldn't do much more than sting their hides...

You might consider a Contender with a 45 Long Colt/.410 barrel. Don't forget there are .410 slugs as well as the 45 for the longer shot.

Even with a 10" barrel you might not like the size/weight, but the durability will be there.

11 posted on 11/08/2001 7:08:35 AM PST by SJackson
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To: gnarledmaw
Am I questing for a mythical beast?

Possibly. Seems to me that if your pistol is powerful enough to reliably terminate coyotes at 40 yds it's going to spatter skunk on the chicken coop at close range. Seems to me a .357 mag might serve you better than .45 acp for the long range shots (flatter trajectory). Have you looked at "flap holsters"? They cover your weapon better than the modern police type open holster, but do slow your access to the weapon.

AB

12 posted on 11/08/2001 7:08:38 AM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: gnarledmaw
Get yourself a tough-ass dog such as a chow, or two of them. A Ruger stainless 357 single action will work on coyotes, even with 38 special.
13 posted on 11/08/2001 7:12:13 AM PST by RLK
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To: gnarledmaw
Take a look at the Taurus "Raging Hornet" revolver in 22 Hornet. The cartridge has adequate power to take coyote at 100 yards, but will not omogenize smaller animals close in. With a 2X scope it is capable of hitting rabits or sknks to 100 yd.

If that is too big, get some CCI shotshells for your 45. Keep a clip of shotshells in the pistol, and a clip of hollow points in your pocket. The shotshells are about equivelent to a .410

So9

14 posted on 11/08/2001 7:12:17 AM PST by Servant of the Nine
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To: gnarledmaw
Go to http://thefiringline.com

Any and all questions will be handled. ;0)

15 posted on 11/08/2001 7:12:39 AM PST by cibco
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To: dirtboy
Yep, It's an O/U derringer style pistol, chambered for the old 45 long colt rimmed cartridge. This chambering will accept .410 shotgun shells.

I've seen them advertized in the Shotgun News. One version comes wih a 6" or maybe 8" barrel, and would probably be usable out to 20 yards or so.

16 posted on 11/08/2001 7:13:15 AM PST by tpaine
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To: TOMH1
I agree ,38 semi-wadcutters with the slug turned around have been very successful for me in removing pests of all kinds. The slug has instant energy transfer and I have only had 1 out 10 exit the carcass. Be careful though they can foul up the barrel if you shoot to many to fast - like in practice.
17 posted on 11/08/2001 7:13:34 AM PST by mad_as_he$$
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To: Henchman
WTF? He wants something effective against small predators, and you suggest jerry-rigging a hunk of junk that's more likely to blow up in his face???
18 posted on 11/08/2001 7:14:25 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: RLK
another vote for long barrled 357/38. you can even get shot shells in 357/38.
19 posted on 11/08/2001 7:16:37 AM PST by Rustynailww
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To: gnarledmaw
How about loading shotshells for the first round, then ball for the rest? That would let you persuade the skunk to leave, and with two shots could take out the coyote.
20 posted on 11/08/2001 7:17:25 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: gnarledmaw
"Something like a .45acp splatters skunks all over the chicken coop (just trust me on that)"

What, are you using hollow points? That's what I use to nail 'coons on the run. They show up in broad daylight to grab a hen and run off with her. Sometimes there's just no shot, so I chase the critter to rescue the hen. LOL! I have a Kimber that I worked on to get the precision needed to trim trees. Else it's a 357 that's good for 100 yd shots.

21 posted on 11/08/2001 7:18:25 AM PST by spunkets
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To: gnarledmaw
.....Glock.....
.....great for icky weather.....

.....10mm.....
.....plenty of bang, good distance.....

.....two clips.....
.....on with solids, one with "shot".....

22 posted on 11/08/2001 7:19:05 AM PST by cyberaxe
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45 FMJ.
23 posted on 11/08/2001 7:19:38 AM PST by spunkets
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To: dirtboy
I've killed quite a few pheasant at 30 yds or so, with a .410.
24 posted on 11/08/2001 7:20:13 AM PST by tpaine
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To: Rustynailww
There used to be 38 special shotshells. I assume you still can. They won't work on a coyote at any distance, but a ball slug in 38 special or 357 will.
25 posted on 11/08/2001 7:23:29 AM PST by RLK
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To: tpaine
I've killed quite a few pheasant at 30 yds or so, with a .410.

I don't think a .410 would be lethal to a coytoe at 40 yards. It'll make him wish he was somewhere else, but I doubt it would penetrate very far past all that fur and skin...

26 posted on 11/08/2001 7:24:19 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: gnarledmaw
This is a simple problem, and it calls for a simple solution. That simple solution is called a Taurus M941 double-action revolver (get the 5" barrel for increased accuracy), and it holds eight .22Mag (aka .22 WMR) rounds. If weight is a concern, get the Titanium model. The .22 Mag is sufficient for any beastie at 40 yards, especially with a quick follow-up shot or two, and it won't splatter anything except maybe a small mouse. You can also get .22Mag shotshells, and you might want to load a couple in the revolver cylinder--my experience, though, is that shotshells are useless beyond 10 feet anyway.

The .410 is a horrible choice, sorry--it's actually quite difficult to get any kind of accuracy with it, and, as another poster pointed out, past 30 yards you might as well throw a handful of sand.

All the larger calibers come with the disadvantage of heavy guns (to offset the recoil). Stick with the revolver (you can also get a Ruger Single Six (it has interchangeable .22 LR and .22 Mag cylinders), but it's more expensive and single-action only. Likewise .22 Mag ammo is cheap too.

Own Drummer

27 posted on 11/08/2001 7:25:48 AM PST by Own Drummer
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To: Own Drummer
A 22 won't kill a coyote instantly, but it will raise hell with it. If you don't like the weight of a 357 a 22 or 22 mag will work.
28 posted on 11/08/2001 7:31:13 AM PST by RLK
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To: gnarledmaw
Excellent Personal Protection!
April's Gun of the Month is the Thunder Five by Holston Enterprises, a shotgun wheelgun! This is a unique self-defense firearms, chambering five rounds in either (a) any combinationof .45 Long Colt or .410 gauge shotshell or (b) .45-70 caliber! Check out the THUNDER FIVE website for more information on this most unusual Gun of the Month!!
29 posted on 11/08/2001 7:31:45 AM PST by BallandPowder
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To: gnarledmaw
Ruger has an SA in .32 magnum now. I think the major problem with it is ammo variety and availablity. If you reload that shouldn't be a problem. Nice looking gun.
30 posted on 11/08/2001 7:32:59 AM PST by TOMH1
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To: gnarledmaw
My personal choice for the scenario you decribe would be a Ruger GP100, stainless, 4" or 6" barrel. Can handle anything from a light .38 target load to maxed out .357 magnum loads without a whimper. You should be able to find a load somewhere in that range to give you exactly what you want in terms of stopping power. I would imagine a medium powered lead semi-wadcutter loading should give you all the stopping power you need for the class of critters you describe without excessive "splattering". Available with or without a heavy barrel. The GP100 is an unusually tough gun that should hold up well to a rough environment, but it will still need a good cleaning to prevent rust every once in a while. Eezox is an outstanding rust preventative that you may want to consider trying. Smells odd when you apply it, but the smell fades and it works well. Rust preventative review article Personally, I found that a nylon Hogue Monogrip made a major improvement in feel on my GP100s over the factory grip. And they don't hold moisture like wooden grips. They aren't too expensive, may want to give one a try.
31 posted on 11/08/2001 7:33:40 AM PST by Chop Farwood
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To: dirtboy
I wouldn't want to test the penetration of #4 shot from a 3" .410 at 40 yards, would you? - Should be the same as say a 20ga, cause the MV's are roughly the same.
32 posted on 11/08/2001 7:35:16 AM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
I wouldn't want to test the penetration of #4 shot from a 3" .410 at 40 yards, would you?

Like I said, the coyote will wish he were somewhere else if hit at 40 yards by 4 shot - and I doubt he'd come back, so it might be just as effective - but I doubt it would kill him outright.

33 posted on 11/08/2001 7:38:12 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: gnarledmaw
If you can hit a moving coyote at 40 yards with ANY handgun, you've got my respect! Most folks couldn't hit a stationary sillouette consistently at that range.

Seriously, as someone else has already pointed out, I believe a .22 magnum would suit your purposes more than adequately. Some revolvers are even made with interchangeable cylinders in .22 mag/.22 long rifle.

34 posted on 11/08/2001 7:43:42 AM PST by Morgan's Raider
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To: TOMH1
"Ruger has an SA in .32 magnum..."

seemed to me I saw a Taurus in TI - had the frame of a 5 shot .38, held six rounds of 32mag, and had 3-4" barrel- reasonably accurate, somewhat flatter shooting than a .45, extremely lightweight...hmmm...

35 posted on 11/08/2001 7:44:53 AM PST by fourdeuce82d
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To: Own Drummer
That simple solution is called a Taurus M941 double-action revolver

Smith&Wesson used to have a nice gun chambered for 22 Jet, and I believe you also got a cylinder for 22mag with it. I also seem to remember they had a model chambered for .30 carabine / 9mm. The 22 Jet model went out of production years ago, though.

36 posted on 11/08/2001 7:46:06 AM PST by Cachelot
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To: gnarledmaw
S&W Model 10/M&P, 4" barrel, loaded with 158 gn. wadcutters. Relatively light, accurate, inexpensive, common, reliable. Worn on the hip in a flap-holster

Since you asked.

Kit.

37 posted on 11/08/2001 7:55:22 AM PST by KitJ
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To: gnarledmaw
Get a donkey. Unlike a dog, it will not eat what it is protecting. Jenny's are probably best about getting along with other animals(and more expensive).
38 posted on 11/08/2001 7:58:43 AM PST by Feckless
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To: gnarledmaw
I would think a Ruger 10/22 would be fine, and give you more distance and accuracy v. a pistol (snag you an occasional rabbit too). Plus it's cheap and there are all sorts of aftermarket accessories for it too. Get the highest power hollow point ammo you can for the coyotes, might have to do double taps on them it will still take them down at 50 yards.
39 posted on 11/08/2001 8:03:08 AM PST by Free Vulcan
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To: dirtboy
A 3" .410 will kill a pheasant at 30 yds. -- 40, with a good hit. It is not a joke load. In a comparably barreled shotgun it will kill just as effectively as a 20 ga.

The only real difference between the different gages of such shotshells, at 30 yds, loaded to the same chamber pressures, is pellet count in the target area, and shot string length.

40 posted on 11/08/2001 8:05:47 AM PST by tpaine
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To: Feckless
Get a donkey.

Get a llama.

AB

41 posted on 11/08/2001 8:05:59 AM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: Free Vulcan
Oh yeah, 2-4 black lab/german shepherd cross dogs wouldn't hurt. Lab/shepherd/doberman is even better.
42 posted on 11/08/2001 8:06:53 AM PST by Free Vulcan
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To: gnarledmaw
IMHO 9 mm is great for this purpose because it is far easier to shoot than other callibers. The Sig P210 is pricey, but it is the ultimate rifle like pistole out there, which is what you need. If not a 44 magnum wheel gun would be the cheaper and easier alternative, using a 4" barrel and no more. It is a great hunting tool that also handles almost like a rifle.
43 posted on 11/08/2001 8:12:26 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: BallandPowder
chambering five rounds in either (a) any combinationof .45 Long Colt or .410 gauge shotshell or (b) .45-70 caliber!

I guess thats just in case you have a problem with Buffalo comming on your property??

44 posted on 11/08/2001 8:13:30 AM PST by FreeTally
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To: gnarledmaw
Another vote for the 32mag here. Big enough to do the job, but not too big.
45 posted on 11/08/2001 8:14:06 AM PST by ghostcat
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: ctdonath2
"Have you tried anything intermediate between .45 and .22?"

Yes, those were just some example calibers that I tried. I dont have a lot of handguns (yet) but the ones I have in other calibers are in classes that one would thing of as either derringer/deep concealment or full combat models. The little ones were too inaccurate and flung too tiny of a slug and the combat models generally threw too large of a slug and were a pain in the butt to have to carry while doing manual labor.

Thus, whats a good middle size frame with a good middleish range caliber?

47 posted on 11/08/2001 9:04:21 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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To: ArrogantBustard
"Have you looked at "flap holsters"?"

Yes but only for the full size combat models I have. The flap holster does take care of the dirt collection and subsequent cleaning problems but the full size frame (like my 1911) seemed to always be getting in the way while doing all the shoveling, carrying, chopping, etc. Hopefully I can find a smaller frame...

48 posted on 11/08/2001 9:08:22 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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To: ctdonath2
#20 The problem with persuading skunks is that they can shoot back. ;)
49 posted on 11/08/2001 9:11:12 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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To: spunkets
"What, are you using hollow points?"

No, ball. It generally goes something like this. I head out to the coop and step up into it. Theres is what appears in my peripheral vision a swirl in the shadow that Ive come to identify as skunk swinging its rear around at me. Im now in a @14' showdown with a skunk that has given me his backend as the only target...

50 posted on 11/08/2001 9:19:38 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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