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Anger seethes toward West - Muslims torn between love of Islam and America.
Calgary Sun ^ | November 11, 2001 | LICIA CORBELLA

Posted on 11/11/2001 6:08:05 PM PST by NorthernRight


November 11, 2001

Anger seethes toward West

Some Muslims in North America secretly hate their adopted society

By LICIA CORBELLA -- Calgary Sun

I read an article this week that so disturbed me -- though enlightened me at the same time -- I thought I would share it. It is a piece written by Dennis Wagner of the Arizona Republic and was titled: "Muslims torn between love of Islam and America." It is a deceptive title since nowhere in it was there any indication that these so-called Americans loved America at all.

It started out quoting Moayaad Hamad, who was wearing a striped Polo shirt, Nikes and was donning a cellphone strapped to his 501 Levis. This is what he had to say about his adopted country.

"It's getting to the point where I hate being here, even though I'm a citizen," said the 22-year-old structural engineer from Phoenix. "I don't think many (Muslims) are willing to say this because they are afraid to say it ... The Qu'ran doesn't justify taking out the World Trade Center, but Islam means not just peace, but freedom. You have to defend yourself."

It's the "but," that really gets me there. What, pray tell, is anyone defending themselves against by slamming commercial jet liners into the World Trade Center. But that's not what really troubled me.

The same article goes on to interview Ihsan Saadeddin, spokesman for the Phoenix Islamic Community Center, who is described as having a beautiful suburban home with a child's painting of an American flag on the front door.

"I love the Constitution of America. I love the freedom of religion, the freedom of speech," Saadeddin said. Yet, says the article, he also believes "the ideal system is a male-controlled Islamic state," and he acknowledges discomfort with free speech that criticizes Islam.

Maybe it's because I'm a woman and women -- let's be perfectly frank -- don't fare too well in countries that describe themselves as following Islamic law. What's maddening is this fellow would like to have it both ways.

He currently "loves" the freedom of religion and speech enshrined in the U.S. Constitution because it allows him to practise his beliefs and say what he wants.

But, let's not beat around the bush here. If he and most of his fellow believers had his way, he would tear up the very foundation that gives him his rights in order for him to impose his views on his fellow Americans and me.

As one Christian pastor who is familiar with Muslim countries wrote in an email recently: "Islam advocates and pleads for tolerance wherever it is in the minority; it advocates, implements and practices suppression and violence wherever it is in the majority."

I know this column will anger many Muslims, but before you write me to complain, finish this little exercise: Name one country that follows Islamic law that can be said to be free and just and that has more people immigrating to it than want to emigrate from it?

You won't be able to because not one exists.

For the most part, Muslims want to move to the West. The Qu'ran very clearly calls on its believers to "fight and slay the pagans (infidels) wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war." Qu'ran, Sura 9:5.

It is probable that the vast majority of North American Muslims do not think that non-Muslims must be slain. But if not in body, certainly in spirit. Though the body will do in certain circumstances.

Saadeddin, the fellow who says he loves the constitution, when asked to comment on the Palestinian who straps a bomb to his body and blows up a pizzeria full of women and children, views that as justified.

"If someone fights to gain his freedom, that's not terrorism," he said. "I don't even call them suicide attacks there. I call them martyrs."

The Levis-wearing engineer, Hamad, said: "I don't see anything necessarily wrong with the bombing of the (USS) Cole," referring to the attack in Yemen last year that killed 17 U.S. sailors.

This fellow is an American?

Elisabetta Burba, an Italian journalist, reported for the Wall Street Journal from Beirut that she saw well-heeled professionals cheering in the streets following the Sept. 11 attacks.

"The cafe's sophisticated clientele was celebrating, laughing, cheering and making jokes, as waiters served hamburgers and Diet Pepsi. Nobody looked shocked or moved. They were excited, very excited," she wrote.

She was told that 90% of the Arab world believes that America got what it deserved.

"An exaggeration?" she asks. "Rather an understatement."

Until recently I believed that seething anger towards the West existed only in far flung places of the world. But of late -- and I have much more evidence -- I'm starting to fear that many people who live in North America secretly feel the same way.

It troubles me and here's why.

I know that I would be executed post-haste in virtually any Islamic country for doing just what I have done here, write some facts and some opinion that the rulers don't like.

On this Remembrance Day (Veteran's Day) most of us will reflect on the high cost of freedom.

Those angry men I have quoted here have exercised that hard-won freedom.

We will have dropped the torch thrown to us by the failing hands of our veterans if we refuse to listen -- and hear -- their frightening message.


Licia Corbella, editor of the Calgary Sun, can be reached at 403-250-4129 or by e-mail at licia.corbella@calgarysun.com. Her columns appear Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday.
Letters to the editor should be sent to
callet@sunpub.com.



TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: clashofcivilizatio
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1 posted on 11/11/2001 6:08:05 PM PST by NorthernRight
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To: DistantVoice; XBob; Mia T; NYC GOP Chick; backhoe; JohnHuang2; monkeyshine
FYI
2 posted on 11/11/2001 6:13:55 PM PST by NorthernRight
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To: Magician; Inyokern; Ben; NativeNewYorker; Nachum; beowolf; STD; vrwc54; American in Israel
FYI
3 posted on 11/11/2001 6:14:21 PM PST by NorthernRight
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To: dennisw; Thinkin' Gal; The Sword; Sabramerican; xm177e2; Lent; angelo; Yehuda; veronica
FYI
4 posted on 11/11/2001 6:14:57 PM PST by NorthernRight
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To: NorthernRight
Those bastard Moslems who hate being here should get the @%$# out! Round 'em up and deport 'em!
5 posted on 11/11/2001 6:17:23 PM PST by freedom_from_socialism
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To: NorthernRight
DEPORT...DEPORT....DEPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
6 posted on 11/11/2001 6:18:01 PM PST by rickmoe
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To: Maceman
As you were saying in another thread...

"As one Christian pastor who is familiar with Muslim countries wrote in an email recently: "Islam advocates and pleads for tolerance wherever it is in the minority; it advocates, implements and practices suppression and violence wherever it is in the majority."

7 posted on 11/11/2001 6:18:49 PM PST by Aaron_A
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To: NorthernRight
"I love the Constitution of America. I love the freedom of religion, the freedom of speech," Saadeddin said. Yet, says the article, he also believes "the ideal system is a male-controlled Islamic state," and he acknowledges discomfort with free speech that criticizes Islam.

Islam = the Psychotic leading the Clueless.

8 posted on 11/11/2001 6:22:01 PM PST by Maceman
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To: NorthernRight
During the second world war, we did not pretend that there were good Nazis who we allowed to immigrate here, and bad Nazis who we fought against. Its time for us to recognize that it is just as foolish to pretend that we can differentiate between good and bad Mo'Hams. Islam is a political and religious system dedicated to our destruction. Islam is the enemy.
9 posted on 11/11/2001 6:22:49 PM PST by atafak
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To: NorthernRight
"It's getting to the point where I hate being here, even though I'm a citizen,"

Hey, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out there, Moayaad. It's nice to see this type of article coming from our Northern neighbor.

10 posted on 11/11/2001 6:23:41 PM PST by Randjuke
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To: NorthernRight
The US is on freindly terms with many Mid East gov'ts, but the man in the street however, does not like Americans. We are hated by the Muslims in the Mid East. We are fools to think that just because they move to or visit America, they will automatically like us and become one with us. They may not all be terrorists, but their hearts are not with us.
11 posted on 11/11/2001 6:23:43 PM PST by umgud
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To: Aaron_A
The doctrine which from the very first origin of religious dissensions, has been held by all bigots of all sects, when condensed into a few words, and stripped of rhetorical disguise, is simply this: I am in the right and you are in the wrong. When you are the stronger you ought to tolerate me; for it is your duty to tolerate truth. But when I am the stronger I shall persecute you; for it is my duty to persecute error.

-- Macaulay, Sir James Mackintosh.


12 posted on 11/11/2001 6:24:33 PM PST by dighton
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To: Aaron_A
Sounds like the DemoNAZIS would make good Muslims.
13 posted on 11/11/2001 6:29:43 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: Randjuke
It's nice to see this type of article coming from our Northern neighbor.

This but the tip of the iceberg up here. You wouldn't believe the volume of near-hate-mail that is printed in the papers, and the comments by "average Canadians" on the talk radio. To suggest that moslems are a bit unpopular right now, would be an understatement. There was an article printed in the last two days, concerning 12 top "Canadian" mullahs who still refuse to accept that Bin Laden commited the attrocities, and are still deflecting blame. I'll dig those articles up and post 'em.

We have our own fifth-columns up here who are "warning" and "threatening" the Canadian government and "the Canadian people" not to side with the "oppressor America".

Tsk! Too late!

14 posted on 11/11/2001 6:33:31 PM PST by NorthernRight
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To: NorthernRight
We will have dropped the torch thrown to us by the failing hands of our veterans
if we refuse to listen -- and hear -- their frightening message.


What an article.
Sums up the current West-Islam tension better than any other single article I've seen.
15 posted on 11/11/2001 6:36:35 PM PST by VOA
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To: atafak
My fathers family was German. My uncle was on a destroyer for D-day. See, back then, people understood that people of German descent could be good American. And just as all German's were not Nazi's, all Muslims are not terrorist.

During the second world war, we did not pretend that there were good Nazis who we allowed to immigrate here, and bad Nazis who we fought against.

16 posted on 11/11/2001 6:40:57 PM PST by GOPJ
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To: NorthernRight
This part is soooooooooo true:

Name one country that follows Islamic law that can be said to be free and just and that has more people immigrating to it than want to emigrate from it?

You won't be able to because not one exists.

17 posted on 11/11/2001 6:43:52 PM PST by GOPJ
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To: NorthernRight
We have our own fifth-columns up here who are "warning" and "threatening" the Canadian
government and "the Canadian people" not to side with the "oppressor America".


Hang in there! We get the same stuff on talk radio here in Los Angeles. As in otherwise rational
sounding American Muslims who deplore what happened on 9-11...and in the next breath
say the fatwah against Salman Rushdie was "a good thing".

This opinion piece is one of the nicest thing I've heard in the Canadian media about
the USA since that Gordon Sinclair piece from the Vietnam era.
(PS: I have relatives in Edmondton...and two emigrated cousins in Dallas. And could
be tempted to "go Canadian" for a good job in Vancouver, B.C.!)
18 posted on 11/11/2001 6:44:27 PM PST by VOA
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To: NorthernRight
Thanks for the article. I have to agree, Muslims are not here out of a love for us or our Country. They may like our technology and our Freedom of Speech, but would quickly kill us if the rules changed to suit them.
19 posted on 11/11/2001 6:46:03 PM PST by Yellow Rose of Texas
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To: NorthernRight
She was told that 90% of the Arab world believes that America got what it deserved.

But...but...but ...Muslims are peaceful and they love us, I know this 'cause juliabrock said so in THIS thread:

you are not my friend

20 posted on 11/11/2001 6:52:22 PM PST by Enlightiator
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To: NorthernRight
It's good to hear that, NorthernRight. I correspond with several Canadians on another board and, while they are all supportive of the US, there is a good deal of hand-wringing and concern about Afghan civilians (like the Taliban really is concerned about it's own citizens). Granted the folks I talk to are mostly college age so maybe that explains the slant to the left. Many are of the opinion we should look for a non-military solution, even in light of the events of Sept. 11.
21 posted on 11/11/2001 6:53:00 PM PST by Randjuke
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To: NorthernRight
I think we need to do far more than hear and listen. Despite what Ted Kennedy has shoved on citizens, our government would be wise not to let anymore of these swine become citizens or residents. It takes more than rushing to the capitol steps to sing God Bless America, after they almost had their fannies blown off, to be worthy of the office they hold.
22 posted on 11/11/2001 6:53:23 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: GOPJ
And just as all German's were not Nazi's, all Muslims are not terrorist.

You are confusing ethnic origin with ideology. Nazism and Islam are ideologies, evil ones. Germans, Arabs, etc. are ethnic groups.

23 posted on 11/11/2001 6:54:19 PM PST by atafak
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To: NorthernRight
Ping me if you post the article about the Canadian mullahs who continue to operate with their in their a$$e$.
24 posted on 11/11/2001 6:54:31 PM PST by Aaron_A
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To: Randjuke
It's nice to see this type of article coming from our Northern neighbor.

Canada is practically the kingdom of PC. Watch her get charged with a hate crime.

25 posted on 11/11/2001 6:59:46 PM PST by white trash redneck
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To: NorthernRight
and he acknowledges discomfort with free speech that criticizes Islam.

These folks are absolutely incapable of comprehending the concept.

They do not belong in this country period.

26 posted on 11/11/2001 7:04:54 PM PST by Calpublican
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To: MissAmericanPie
The Koran fully supports BinLaden's actions, and the Moslem clerics know it.

The so called American Islamics are in major denial which is typical of cults.

27 posted on 11/11/2001 7:11:57 PM PST by Dallas
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To: NorthernRight
"If someone fights to gain his freedom, that's not terrorism," he said. "I don't even call them suicide attacks there. I call them martyrs."

If a naturalized U.S. citizen is discovered to have been a Nazi, he can have his citizenship stripped and he can be deported.

It is time for the U.S.A. to start treating the followers of Radical Islam the same way that it treats Nazis.

28 posted on 11/11/2001 7:15:05 PM PST by Polybius
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To: Calpublican
The problem with Islam is that the very uncomplicated part of the religion does not say anything about getting along with others. It says to acknowledge Allah and Mohammad. It says to pray 5 times a day. It says to visit Mecca. It says to fast in the correct month.

This is it. You have to be a scholar to read into the Koran enough to learn that doing that which is hurtful to another is wrong. But the simple muslims don't get it. The Koran should say clearly that muslims and non-muslims are both worthy of not being hurt in the name of the religion.

The point is that its easy to turn ignorant muslims to a life of crime and hate. The religion is not structured properly. Take Judaism: the ten commandments get to the part of not doing murder rather quickly. Take Christianity: The Christ represented love of your neighbor as yourself. And this is not hidden deeply in the scriptures. Muslim is only a tolerant religion when it is explained by tolerant clerics. Which is why the failure of these very clerics to come forward in voice and writing in large numbers is particularly bad for the religion in the west.

29 posted on 11/11/2001 7:19:30 PM PST by KC_for_Freedom
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To: NorthernRight
Incredible! Do any of these people have an IQ above room temperature? They think it's so wonderful here, but if they could just make one little change - like turn it into a theocracy ruled by males - here wouldn't be wonderful anymore. Why even come here - they had theocracy ruled by males where they were. Oh, that's right, the ultimate goal is for the whole world to be muslim.

I'm getting a little tired of seeing all these headlines about their hate and anger toward the west, I think it's time they worry about how much we hate them.

30 posted on 11/11/2001 7:20:54 PM PST by Let's Roll
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To: KC_for_Freedom
Well said!

The more I learn about this "peaceful" religion, the more uncomfortable I get.

31 posted on 11/11/2001 7:25:16 PM PST by Calpublican
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To: NorthernRight
Someone send this article to Bush and the rest of the Media.
32 posted on 11/11/2001 7:33:29 PM PST by GuillermoX
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To: NorthernRight
And to every other American...
33 posted on 11/11/2001 7:34:27 PM PST by GuillermoX
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To: Aaron_A; Randjuke; VOA; DistantVoice; XBob; Mia T; NYC GOP Chick; backhoe; JohnHuang2; monkeyshine
FYI
34 posted on 11/11/2001 7:39:05 PM PST by NorthernRight
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To: atafak
Islam is a political and religious system dedicated to our destruction. Islam is the enemy.

So very true, yet most real Americans, some FReepers included, have not been able to grasp this simple concept. I consider every muslim to be my enemy. Anyone who doesn't is either naive or foolish. The only reason they don't behave like their kind who live in predominantly muslims countries is that they are only 7 million strong here...which is 7 million too many as far as I'm concerned. Yet we still allow America to be a dumping ground for this filth who hate us so much. When will we wake up?

35 posted on 11/11/2001 7:43:17 PM PST by AlaskaErik
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To: Aaron_A; Randjuke; VOA; DistantVoice; XBob; Mia T; NYC GOP Chick; backhoe; JohnHuang2...
Ooops...

The Imams... article is now posted at:

Imams question focus on bin Laden
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/568846/posts

Enjoy!

36 posted on 11/11/2001 7:44:31 PM PST by NorthernRight
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To: NorthernRight
Good article. Sadly, I fear she is right.
37 posted on 11/11/2001 7:47:14 PM PST by BunnySlippers
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To: Dallas
They darn sure don't bother to deny it very loudly. They have been so silent so far that it's far to late for them to bother to say anything. Anything they say now will fall on deaf ears. We have their number and it's zero, zero tolerance for them being in this country. I plan to make it my business to harangue every congressman every week until their secretaries are begging them to kill me or until they reject any notion of allowing any more of them to settle here.
38 posted on 11/11/2001 7:57:26 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: NorthernRight
"If someone fights to gain his freedom, that's not terrorism," he said. "I don't even call them suicide attacks there. I call them martyrs."

Well join your Jihad friends then. We're waiting....

39 posted on 11/11/2001 8:00:59 PM PST by Lent
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To: NorthernRight
"he also believes "the ideal system is a male-controlled Islamic state," and he acknowledges discomfort with free speech that criticizes Islam."

This best defines why all Muslims are unfit to be American citizens. Allowing them to emigrate here makes as much sense as it would have made to allow members of the Kremlin to emegrate to the U.S. and set up indocrination schools here during the worst days of the cold war.

Wake up Americans and western civilization!! These people with their wacky beliefs and militant behavior created one dark age in the past, and will gladly do soagin, if allowed.

40 posted on 11/11/2001 8:03:51 PM PST by ZULU
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To: atafak
I was trying to explain that just as there were Germans in this country who were totally loyal American citizens ( almost 25% of Americans have some German blood in them) during WWII, there can be totally loyal American-Muslim citizens here during the War against Terror.

This is the comment he made to me

:"During the second world war, we did not pretend that there were good Nazis who we allowed to immigrate here, and bad Nazis who we fought against."

41 posted on 11/11/2001 8:05:28 PM PST by GOPJ
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To: NorthernRight
Dubya has been criticized by some of the hotter heads among us for being too "pro-Muslim" (which I think is a genuine consequence of his being "pro-Faith") but to his credit nearly every speech he has made since 9-11 has said implicitly what those in less diplomatically sensitive positions should be unafraid to say explicitly:

Our culture IS better than theirs.

This is not merely a matter of opinion, prejudice or chauvinism, but is objectively true by virtually any criteria reflecting universal human values. We in the West have discovered -- in representative democracy, plus secular government limited by individual rights, plus regulated capitalism -- the best way for men to govern themselves and provide for the sustenance of human life.

We should be proud of this accomplishment, but we should not be arrogant. We should remember that we learned these things the hard way. Hundreds of years of vicious, largely pointless and nearly continuous religious warfare taught us the importance of secular government. Our horrific experiments in this century with fascism and communism (and absolute monarchy and many other earlier experiences) taught us the importance of limited government. Learning the secrets of civilization has been costly for the West, and our civilization, despite its many bright and shinning moments, has spilled more blood in its evolution than any other in human history.

But for this very reason, although we should allow others in so far as possible to "see for themselves" that our ways are better, and although we must restrain ourselves from pushing nonessential elements of our culture (including our religions!) onto others, the Islamic world CANNOT be allowed to repeat all our mistakes. Not in a world with six billion souls for whom we are all corporately responsible. Not in a world with weapons of mass destruction.

I think Bush is correct to say that Islam is a religion of peace. It is, in its highest and best and most complete understanding, the full ethical equal of any other organized human attempt to express true love, gratitude and devotion to God. But in many respects Islam (or rather the minds of many of its devotees) are where Christianity, or "The West," was several hundred years ago. Many Muslims, even "moderates," fundamentally reject secular government, for instance, and dream of universal Islamic government for all mankind. This is inexpressibly frustrating and frightening to educated Westerners. We KNOW, from our own flings with utopianism, that aspirations like this, regardless of intents good, bad or indifferent, lead with terrible inevitability to hell on earth. Reform of Islam with respect to modernism, freedom of religion, etc is essential, but it is far from clear that Muslims have the necessary history to understand that need. God grant they don't learn the hard way.

42 posted on 11/11/2001 8:34:48 PM PST by Stultis
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To: Aaron_A
The irony of the situation completely escapes these people. They are in the US because frankly their societies stink in providing decent lives for most of their people. Unless they are in the top rung, those that can get out get out.

Many Arabs I have spoken to seem to think that the US foreign policy should be to assist in the overthrow of the repressive governments under which their societies find themselves. They blame the US for perpetuating these regimes. Yet when left to their own devices they produce Islamic theocracies that take their countries back centuries from an economic and human rights perspective. I refer to Iran, Afghanistan and Algeria if it were permitted.

The minister quoted in the article had it right. When Muslims are in the majority in a country the country will be pushed to accept Sha'aria as the law of the land. Non-muslims then must effectively adhere to a foreign religious law. Lack of knowledge of that law is not an excuse.

43 posted on 11/11/2001 8:46:18 PM PST by Roy Tucker
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To: NorthernRight
American Muslims need to wise up. If they see the choice as being American or being Muslim and they choose to be Muslim first, then America is not the place for them to be. They aren't mentally comfortable here, and they aren't physically safe. It's time for them to realize this and leave. To stay would be hypocritical and unwise.
44 posted on 11/11/2001 9:05:08 PM PST by etcetera
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To: NorthernRight
Well, the nice thing about living in a free country is that you are always free to leave. We do not surround ourselves with concrete walls, barbed wire, mine fields, and machine-gun towers to force our people to stay here against their will. If they don't like it here, they are free to go -- and perhaps they should.
45 posted on 11/11/2001 9:05:57 PM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Maceman
No kidding. If he wants an Islamic state, I'm sure Iran will take him.
46 posted on 11/11/2001 9:26:32 PM PST by beavus
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To: GOPJ
The Germans were an ethnicity the Nazis were an idealogy and Islam is also an idealogy and a bad one there could be good arabs and good nominal muslims( those who didn't bother to abandon Islam even if they hate it( this would describe most turks)) but no good religious muslims.
47 posted on 11/11/2001 10:03:02 PM PST by weikel
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To: GOPJ
bump
48 posted on 11/11/2001 10:09:34 PM PST by timestax
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To: KC_for_Freedom
If you notice from the article (and from my own personal experience) these aren't 'simple' muslims. They are engineers. We're not talking about laborers, we're talking about individuals who took advantage of everything our society had to offer, who are educated, who have participated in our society, and who would then blythely tear down that opportunity to their posterity, by supporting the destruction of that very society who gave them those opportunities. Sounds a helluva like your typical Democrat, if you think about it.
49 posted on 11/11/2001 10:10:57 PM PST by Robear
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To: NorthernRight
As one Christian pastor who is familiar with Muslim countries wrote in an email recently: "Islam advocates and pleads for tolerance wherever it is in the minority; it advocates, implements and practices suppression and violence wherever it is in the majority."

That pretty well sums it up. Do we really want more Muslims in this country? HELLO.

50 posted on 11/11/2001 10:11:50 PM PST by WRhine
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