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In Phoenix, We're Terrorists!
Sierra Times/KABA ^ | 14 Nov 01 | Self

Posted on 11/16/2001 1:04:30 PM PST by 11B3

Do you defend the Constitution? If the police pull you over, do you want to know why? Have you ever "hacked"? Are you alone? Well, guess what Freepers - if you can answer "Yes" to any of these questions (and a whole bunch more that fits nearly everyone), then you are a terrorist! Instead of continuing my rant, I'll show you the tri-fold pamphlet that this info comes from so that you can do your own ranting. Here it is:

Front Page

Back Page


TOPICS: Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: billofrights
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: wwjdn
"And your point is?????"

I haven't a clue what your point is except the defame my posts. You are the one who started this banter. Unless you can make a point by actually telling the truth, then I suggest you drop it.

201 posted on 11/16/2001 1:08:48 PM PST by JRadcliffe
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To: Righty1
Going to bed now, I worked all night...

I hope somebody takes this and runs with it...

I hope it's still a free country when I wake up.

202 posted on 11/16/2001 1:08:50 PM PST by Verax
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To: Travis McGee
Lone individuals are terrorist's ? Right wing are extreamist ,....yet left wing are terrorist ? Well ya have to like that part :o)

They want to stick to this they'll have to disband congress......Ooooop's maybe I let the cat outta the bag early....

Stay Safe !

203 posted on 11/16/2001 1:08:55 PM PST by Squantos
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To: Dane
You are making no sense.

The pamphlet incudes "defenders of the constitution" as terrorist suspects, even though all military and police take a sworn oath to do just that.

What does that have to do with Joe McCarthy and the communists in the 1950s?

Try to make sense, you are incoherent.

204 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:07 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: maica
The Patriot Act makes no distinction between illegal aliens, legal aliens, naturalized citizens and native citizens.
205 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:08 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Poohbah
Oh Good Lord, Poohbah. Look at the damn thing. The group that gets the central position is "Common Law Proponents". How could any of the things listed there be construed in any way as terrorist?

This is all about asking the police to be accountable for their actions. Can't have that, can we?

206 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:09 PM PST by Architect
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To: Poohbah
I am only reading what the FBI has put out as guidance to local LEOs.

Are the local PDs supposed to read it, or "interpret" it on some higher level?

207 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:09 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: 11B3
"..defenders of the US Constitution against federal government and the UN"

Well. That gets all military and ex-military that take their oath seriously.

"Goups or individuals operating entirely inside the US, attempting to influence the
US government or population to effect political or social change by engaging in criminal activity."

Does that mean that politicians and lobbyists will be tried as terrorists when they
get caught doing the things they get caught at regularly?

"Political motivation is usually Marxist/Leninist philosophy"

That covers most of the people in government office and most in civil service.
Of course, I doubt that most of them will be targeted in spite of their stated leanings.

"Groups of individuals engaged in para-military training."

That appears to get all organized militias.
Of course, it also covers the swat teams, the FBI,
the armed units of various government offices, etc.

"Persons who request authority for being stopped"

Anyone who questions someone with a badge...

"Persons who attempt to "police the police"

Anyone who trys to keep the police from breaking the law.

"Persons who make numerous references to U.S. Constitution."

Anyone that believes that they are still have rights under that document.


Citizen: "Hey why are you busting down my door? I have rights!"
Badge: "What rights?"
Citizen: "My Constitutional rights!"
Badge: "Not anymore you don't -you domestic terrorist you!"
208 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:14 PM PST by freefly
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To: Dane
"It lets police target people who are for the violent overthrow of the government."

It ALSO lets them target ANYONE that fits their open-ended description.
You just don't want to admit it.
209 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:14 PM PST by freefly
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To: Poohbah
"Differentiating between someone who is a defender of the Constitution and someone
who is a "defender" of the Constitution requires judgement and discrimination--"

Maybe you havn't noticed, but both tend to be in short supply where
the fed is concerned. As I pointed out to dane (and as Travis McGee
pointed out) this is as open-ended as they CHOOSE to make it.
We can see how this worked in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, and Mao's China.
You can be declared an "enemy of the state" at the discression of the federal (or local) police.
And now it takes VERY little to be branded as such.
210 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:16 PM PST by freefly
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To: Jim Robinson
From FBI Brochure:

"Defenders of U.S. Constitution."

Against federal government and UN."

Jim, the FBI officially believes that you are a terrorist. Also, please change your logo.

If you have any questions, please refer to _Jim, Sinkspur or Poohbah. They will gladly be of help.

About Free Republic - Who are we?

"Free Republic is a loosely organized group of grassroots Americans who support our Constitution..."

"You will be among great friends and patriots, and together, we will make a difference."

"Free Republic is dedicated to reversing the trend of unconstitutional government expansion and is advocating a complete restoration of our constitutional republic."

"We at Free Republic are determined to return the Constitution to its rightful place as the Supreme Law of the land as the Founders intended."

"We call for the repeal of the Emergency and War Powers Acts, an end to all national emergencies and a ban on the unilateral creation of law by Presidential edict. We are also working for the repeal all laws created by unconstitutional and extraconstitutional devices, such as Executive Order or Presidential Directive."

"A return to a strictly Constitutional form of federal government will automatically repeal and abolish all unconstitutional federal involvement in states issues such as: crime, health, education, welfare and the environment. The Tenth Amendment will again be in effect, which will bar all federal attempts at legislating social issues. This will also require that social programs such as Social Security, welfare and Medicare be repealed. So too, will most federal subsidies."

"We further call for the rescinding of all treaties and/or International Agreements which are not in perfect agreement with the federal government’s Constitutionally mandated task of protecting the rights of the people."

We believe that the United States should disassociate itself from the U.N. and that the U.N. should be forced to leave the United States. Furthermore, we demand that the federal government refrain from meddling in the business and squabbles of foreign nations, unless there is an imminent threat to the people of the United States."

Sorry Jim, many of us here have always thought you to be a "Super Patriot." Of course, to the FBI, that takes on a whole different meaning. Let us know when the tanks roll in.

Regards, Uncle Bill.

211 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:26 PM PST by Uncle Bill
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To: Uncle Bill; harpseal; Squantos; Poohbah
That reply would be quite funny, except I don't think that the federal SWAT teams have any sense of humor, or ability to differentiate a "defender" of the constitution from a defender of the constitution.
212 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:38 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Uncle Bill; LSJohn
Hey ... at least our legislators "get it" ... named their latest Act after the likes of Jim Robinson.
213 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:55 PM PST by Askel5
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To: ScreamingFist
And they said it couldn't happen here...
214 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:57 PM PST by freefly
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To: JRadcliffe
Gee who does that sound like? I aks for simple explanations and suddenly I'm flaming you?

No more, I can see that you are beyond reason!

215 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:57 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: Verax; Fred25; ThanksBTTT
Thanks for the letters, calls and the links.
216 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:58 PM PST by Askel5
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To: Travis McGee
Are the local PDs supposed to read it, or "interpret" it on some higher level?

Like anything else...law enforcement relies on good judgement and discrimination, better known as "profiling." Ain't it just heck to be a bearded, swarthy-skinned Arab (even an Arab-American) right now? But it's a fair assessment.

217 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:12 PM PST by Poohbah
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To: bakatare
Can someone please identify what Christian indentity means before I turn myself in.

Anyone who is a Conservative and is against amnesty for illegals and open borders. We're all toast.

218 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:13 PM PST by swampfox98
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To: wwjdn
"I aks for simple explanations and suddenly I'm flaming you?"

____________________________________________________________

"So you can't speak better English? You're funny. You speak in circles and then laugh at people who don't understand your tripe."

Yes indeed, I'd consider that a flame. Your attempt to deceive is duely noted for all to see.

219 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:13 PM PST by JRadcliffe
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To: Travis McGee
Yep Travis ...it looks as though our FLEOS are all about as politically correctly indoctrinated as our State Dept. Damn shame too!!!.....there must be a fair amount of decent folks in these agencies...major ditto for our Armed Forces as well.

I suppose my Celtic Cross tattoo on my left shoulder as well as the Blue Bonnet flag tag on the front of my old Land Rover must qualify me as some sort of suspect as well. You know the esteemed ADL deems the Celtic Cross a terror symbol as well. Gawd!!!!

I see the some of the willy nilly Freepers (in name only) have tried to get your goat a bit today. Nice discipline ...refusing to take the bait.

BTW...for anyone reading...Chritian Identity adherents...no matter how misguided are not the same as Neo-Nazis....their only commonality is their mutual dislike of Jews in particular.

Regards

220 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:14 PM PST by wardaddy
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To: 11B3
i better watch out as i have the fish symbol on my front door. i must have been in denile.
221 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:14 PM PST by liliana
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To: JRadcliffe
Are you just having a bad day or what?

I meant no harm to anyone, I asked for an explanation and got flamed, then I was accused of doing the flaming...

Oh well, off to more productive post.

222 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:15 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: wardaddy
Asset forfeiture was another great idea which was ONLY going to be used to go after narcotics kingpins.
223 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:15 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: wwjdn
OK wwjdn, you seem like a nice enough person, so if yuou rephrase your question, and tie it to a specific post, I'll try to anwer your question. But can you not see that such statements as: "So you can't speak better English? You're funny. You speak in circles and then laugh at people who don't understand your tripe." can be considered a flame?

Mind you I don't mind a good flame. I can give as well as I get.

224 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:33 PM PST by JRadcliffe
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To: JRadcliffe
Thanks, I have a thick skin, I can take it too. I just wanted to keep to the facts, and I was also guilty of pulling a tangent. Sorry.

ha, ha, now I forgot the question...

Oh well. My point was: I am concerned that these definitions can be misinterpreted, making an honest, law abiding person a terrorist. The new laws make you guilty first and then maybe innocent later, if you get a chance to prove yourself...

Thanks for the reply.

225 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:35 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: Restorer
Welcome to profiling. Not as much fun when you fit the profile, is it?

So who is excluded in the profile list? It covers just about 100% of the population who have an opinion about something.

226 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:41 PM PST by hattend
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To: Travis McGee
The 1000 pound gorilla in the closet regarding governmental suppression (and control) is and has always been GUN CONFISCATION. Take away our firearms and it becomes exponentially more difficult to resist.

You know as well as anyone on this forum that there is a faction in the leadership of this nation that is momentarily distracted but still in their dreams(wet) wish nothing more than to disarm the nation....and not to fight crime but to make us all more vulnerable to their PC whip. They fear folks like us and the extremists on the right far more than they do your garden variety predator. They will try to use justified fear of the extremists in order to neuter the rest of us on the right. That's exactly why they are lumping folks like us in with CI and NA etc.

Regards...and keep the faith.

227 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:43 PM PST by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
The 2nd amendment is the Rubicon, for certain.
228 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:44 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: 11B3
What are the chances this is just a hoax document meant to rile us up here? If it is in fact true, someone's job is on the line.
229 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:46 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: 11B3
Golly! So if I am stopped for no apparent reason while driving my car, and ask Mr. JBT to explain himself, I'm a terrorist? Boy, these guys are wimps! Terrorists are people who, for instance, break down your door at night while serving a search warrant, and shoot the homeowner in the back. Now THAT'S a terrorist!
230 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:55 PM PST by Henrietta
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Comment #231 Removed by Moderator

To: Restorer
I will tell you that "extreme activist" Black Muslims,Black Panthers and and Black Separatist are many times one in the same. Ask Cincinnati folks after the riots.
232 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:57 PM PST by bakatare
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To: Travis McGee
I found this link with a summary of the Bill

Here is what I was looking for:

Title VIII: Strengthening the Criminal Laws Against Terrorism - Amends the Federal criminal code to prohibit specific terrorist acts or otherwise destructive, disruptive, or violent acts against mass transportation vehicles, ferries, providers, employees, passengers, or operating systems.

(Sec. 802) Amends the Federal criminal code to: (1) revise the definition of "international terrorism" to include activities that appear to be intended to affect the conduct of government by mass destruction; and (2) define "domestic terrorism" (my bold) as activities that occur primarily within U.S. jurisdiction, that involve criminal acts dangerous to human life, and that appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, to influence government policy by intimidation or coercion, or to affect government conduct by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping.

(Sec. 803) Prohibits harboring any person knowing or having reasonable grounds to believe that such person has committed or to be about to commit a terrorism offense.

(Sec. 804) Establishes Federal jurisdiction over crimes committed at U.S. facilities abroad.

(Sec. 805) Applies the prohibitions against providing material support for terrorism to offenses outside of the United States.

(Sec. 806) Subjects to civil forfeiture all assets, foreign or domestic, of terrorist organizations.

(Sec. 808) Expands: (1) the offenses over which the Attorney General shall have primary investigative jurisdiction under provisions governing acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries; and (2) the offenses included within the definition of the Federal crime of terrorism.

(Sec. 809) Provides that there shall be no statute of limitations for certain terrorism offenses if the commission of such an offense resulted in, or created a foreseeable risk of, death or serious bodily injury to another person.

--------------------------------------

It goes on, --- but while this pamphlet published in Phoenix is stupid, I don't see the actual bill as taking away any more of our freedoms than living with uncontrolled terrorist behavior would.

233 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:58 PM PST by maica
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To: wwjdn
"Thanks for the reply."

You're welcomed. It seems we're on the same wave length here.

234 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:00 PM PST by JRadcliffe
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To: maica
Just hope that your own organization is never called a terrorist organization by the feds: say a right to life group which ever had a member send a letter interpreted as threatening.

RICO and asset forfeiture laws were also sold as being narrowly targeted against mobsters and drug kingpins, now they are used against pro-life groups and to sieze the cash of old ladies.

Now, with the Patriot Act, groups seen by the feds as causing problems will be named as terrorist groups (or those supporting them) and Katy bar the door.

235 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:01 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Wrigley
"If it is in fact true, someone's job is on the line."

Do you really think so? After Huriuchi (a Federal Agent) murdered innocent people at Ruby Ridge, he was given an award, and sent on to Waco for more of his mass slaughter! (our government thinks our children taste better when well-done over an open flame.)

In a civilized society, he would have been in prison LONG ago. Instead this criminal murdering thug is still free to terrorize Americans -- AND THIS IS THE TYPE OF PEOPLE WE HAVE SENDING OUT THIS GARBAGE! The authors will probably be promoted and cheered. (Asscroft will, no doubt, do the honors.)

236 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:02 PM PST by JRadcliffe
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To: Travis McGee
"Now, with the Patriot Act, groups seen by the feds as causing problems will be named as terrorist groups (or those supporting them) and Katy bar the door."

As you so eloquently pointed out, the precident has been set -- and ASScroft was a large part of getting these things into place. Now that godless, satan-worshipping MF'er has a post (a dangerous one) in THIS "Republican's" Administation.

Bush SR -- RUBY RIDGE

Clinton -- WACO

Bush JR -- ????????

It appears he is after any and everyone.

I've said it over and over again -- Ashcroft is evil. You mark my words!

237 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:12 PM PST by JRadcliffe
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To: All
Charles A. Beard: "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
238 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:14 PM PST by Doomonyou
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To: swampfox98
"Can someone please identify what Christian indentity means before I turn myself in."

"Anyone who is a Conservative and is against amnesty for illegals and open borders. We're all toast."

That's simply not true.

Please, take a few moments to bring yourself up to speed on "Christian Identity". Warning -- you'll feel like washing your hands after you leave these sites:

"Seedline & Race"

"Kingdom Identity Ministries - Christian Identity, White Race, Christian Right, Christian Patriot, Nationalism, Conservative, Seedline"

"Doctrinal Statement - Christian Identity, White Race..."

"Christian Identity politics"

"Christian Identity - An Apologetics Index research resource"

"When people first hear the term Christian Identity, they think that it refers to another Christian denomination, such as Methodist or Baptist. This confusion enables racial supremacists to provide a 'religious' cover for their views. The basic belief of the Christian Identity movement is that the Jews are descendants of Satan, and that the real Israelites are the English"

"Christian Identity" (this is "stormfront.org", a CI/neo-nazi outfit. From the horses's mouth, as it were.

"Christian Identity- Gospel of Hatred" (from acts1711.com/JESUS IS LORD Ministries of Monroe)

"The Christian Identity Movement" (from same site as above)

"Christian Identity beliefs"

There. I've scratched the surface. But just barely. There are reams of information available to anyone who feels like researching it. CI is an open book. I must say that I am surprised that some here claim ignorance of the topic. It strains credulity.

239 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:21 PM PST by Don Joe
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To: G-Bear
LOL!! Nice Catch!!
240 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:22 PM PST by caseyblane
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To: wardaddy
"BTW...for anyone reading...Chritian Identity adherents...no matter how misguided are not the same as Neo-Nazis....their only commonality is their mutual dislike of Jews in particular."

Um, not hardly. See my post above this one.

241 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:23 PM PST by Don Joe
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To: Don Joe
Please, take a few moments to bring yourself up to speed on "Christian Identity". Warning -- you'll feel like washing your hands after you leave these sites:

<SNIP>

No kidding about washing your hands...absolutely revolting theology for anyone who takes Christ's teachings seriously.

There. I've scratched the surface. But just barely. There are reams of information available to anyone who feels like researching it. CI is an open book. I must say that I am surprised that some here claim ignorance of the topic. It strains credulity.

Well, yeah. Mostly because I've actually seen a few now-banned posters spouting some (well, LOTS) of this bilge, and then suddenly saying "Christian Identity? Whazzat? Never heard of it" when they got called out on it.

242 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:23 PM PST by Poohbah
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To: 11B3
I sent an email to the FBI Phoenix office and here is their reply:

Subj: Re: 'Domestic Terrorist' Flyer
Date: 11/14/01 6:33:09 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: phoenix@fbi.gov
Reply-to: phoenix@fbi.gov
To: Norb2569@aol.com

The pamphlet was prepared by the Phoenix Office of the FBI for dissemination to State and local law enforcement officers. Its purpose was to assist uniformed patrol officers in identifying potential domestic terrorism and to encourage officers to contact the FBI if, and when, they encountered criminal activities which could constitute domestic terrorism. The FBI only conducts investigations which are appropriately authorized under applicable Attorney General Guidelines.

Norb2569@aol.com wrote:

This pamphlet your joint task force is publishing is bordering on treason. It is the duty of all Americans to preserve, protect and defend the US Constitution against ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. I have taken that oath at least 5 times, as a Marine and a civil service employee.

This pamphlet would, quite reasonably place the premier Law Enforcement organization in the country, the FBI, on 'domestic enemies' category, because it is labeling defenders of the constitution as domestic terrorists!!

The FBI's role in protecting America is of primary importance. Please don't smear it by publishing this misleading pamphlet. Please remove this pamphlet from circulation at once.

Norb Logsdon
Orange Park, FL

243 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:24 PM PST by Norb2569
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To: AnnaZ
Ping!
244 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:25 PM PST by HangFire
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To: Don Joe
Well I must confess that my experience with CI comes from personal discourse with 2 of it's adherents. One of whom is fairly well known as a grand poobah (no offense to the sterling Freeper)in the movement. Their articulations to me clearly defined that while they are most definitely anit-Jewish ...or anti-Zionist as they prefer...they do not cotton up to Neo-Nazis except in that shared hatred of Jews. They view National Socialism as just that....Socialism which is anathema to them and which they blame on Jews naturally. They also have a big problem with the near Pagan mythological theology of Nazism.

Now I must confess that I don't study their literature nor have I read the Protocols but I have read the Turner Diaries which is one of their faves and was written by one of their leaders. American Nazism is best represented by the National Alliance folks from what I can tell. Now this has been about 6 years now so maybe they have converged somewhat more but my understanding was that Odinism, Nazism and even Aryan Nations were somewhat distinct from purist Identity disciples. Further, they view the Klan as a bunch of buffoons preoccupied with the wrong enemy. Lumping all far-right groups into the same handbasket is just not quite accurate in my view and from the knowledge I gleaned from arguing with these two extremists.

On a final note (and I have said this before on this forum)...I will always somewhat chillingly remember how they warned me that right wing Southern Christian Conservatives like myself who refused to see the wisdom of CI doctrine and who should know better(in their opinion)...would be reserved for special retribution when the day of reckoning came at their hands......in other words....they already had in mind a special lampost with my name on it to hang me from since I was the worst kind of traitor in their mind's eye....

If we do ever have a RKBA calamity in this nation resulting in a "Blue Hats as the Enemy" style revolt...it will be multi-faceted and the enemy will most assuredly be coming from varied political directions....in other words...a pandemonium unlike we have ever seen. I pray such a calamity never passes. Timothy McVeigh was only one stupid young man and I believe he was most definitely CI oriented. Think of the slaughter if there were thousands like him willing to do the same. Scary.

Posse Comitatus is the only far right group that the CI folks I spoke to were in acknowledgement of being "kinsmen" with. The leader I spoke to is publically known and is a rival to Pierce but i believe he has since been incarcerated Federally for refusing to pay taxes and firearms violations.

regards

245 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:43 PM PST by wardaddy
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To: Don Joe
Thanks for posting the links to the CI sites. Earlier on this thread I tried to reply to all the people who logged on, had never heard of CI and assumed it referred to all those who had a Christian identity (which probably means most Freepers). I got tired of responding. Thanks for pitching in. Maybe some will follow your links before they over-react.
246 posted on 11/16/2001 1:11:43 PM PST by Restorer
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To: JRadcliffe
Well after reading your post, no, I don't think so.
247 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:47 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: wardaddy
On a final note (and I have said this before on this forum)...I will always somewhat chillingly remember how they warned me that right wing Southern Christian Conservatives like myself who refused to see the wisdom of CI doctrine and who should know better(in their opinion)...would be reserved for special retribution when the day of reckoning came at their hands......in other words....they already had in mind a special lampost with my name on it to hang me from since I was the worst kind of traitor in their mind's eye....

If they do go after you, I hope you are able to make it very costly for them.

If we do ever have a RKBA calamity in this nation resulting in a "Blue Hats as the Enemy" style revolt...it will be multi-faceted and the enemy will most assuredly be coming from varied political directions....in other words...a pandemonium unlike we have ever seen. I pray such a calamity never passes. Timothy McVeigh was only one stupid young man and I believe he was most definitely CI oriented. Think of the slaughter if there were thousands like him willing to do the same. Scary.

Yes, I think those same thoughts from time to time in my darker moments.

Take a look at these posts:

"statement by Billy Roper, Deputy Membership Coordinator of the 'National Alliance.'"

"low-cost cheap effective biological warfare"

"An Alternative View (Consider this)"

JoeEveryman's analysis blew me away...

248 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:47 PM PST by Don Joe
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To: 11B3
bttt
249 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:54 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: TooBusy
Garner Ted Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God was into identity years ago if I remember correctly. Maybe the other groups borrowed from his theology. I certainly wouldn't consider the former a terrorist.

I'm not into any of that stuff. Death to the new world order ;-).

250 posted on 11/16/2001 1:13:00 PM PST by Aliska
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