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Pawning the Holy Land for Peace, Again (United States squarely in conflict with God's Word?)
CBN News ^ | 11/16/01 | Chris Mitchell

Posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:14 PM PST by truthandlife

For the first time since modern Israel became a nation, a United States President has openly referred to a state of Palestine, presumably on the land the Bible calls "the mountains of Israel." U.S. officials and world leaders are praising this decision as a step for peace. But many Bible-believing Jews and Christians say it could put the United States squarely in conflict with God's Word.

Despite eight years of a failed peace process, the concept of land for peace forms the core of a renewed global drive to stop the fighting between Israel and the Palestinians. Reduce the violence, say the diplomats, and the two parties can sit down and talk about who controls the land.

But the land of Israel, as outlined in the Bible, has some very different borders than the ones being discussed at the United Nations. And along with the definition of the territory, the Bible also warns the other nations of the world not to divide the land.

According to Scripture, all of the West Bank, including Palestinian-controlled cities such as Hebron, Bethlehem, Jericho and even Gaza, are part of the Biblical land of Israel.

Chuck Cohen, an American-born messianic pastor in Jerusalem, believes the U.S. and other world powers are setting a dangerous agenda in the Middle East.

Cohen said, "Joel 3, verse one and two, says very clearly this: ‘For behold in those days and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem; I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, the valley of God's judgment, and I will judge them there for my people and my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and parted (or divided) My land.’"

Do the ancient Scriptures have any bearing on today's Middle East conflict? Cohen says President Bush seems to be ready to divide the land, calling for a Palestinian state on territory that God says belongs to Him.

"And that is diametrically opposed to God's Word. And it is going to bring, if it hasn't already brought the U.S. into conflict with the God of Israel," Cohen said.

Cohen and others argue that the United Kingdom, the last great world power to divide the land of Israel, declined dramatically after turning its back on the Jewish state it had originally promised to support.

But today, Israelis themselves are divided over whether to concede any more territory to Yasser Arafat, and how much to rely on the promises of the Bible. This is especially true in Tel Aviv, Israel's secular stronghold.

Israeli citizen Avi Omry said, "I do believe, yes, God promised the land. But they [Palestinians] believe the same way, too. So I think we should find a way that will somehow satisfy both."

Tel Aviv resident Elhanan Shanan said, "The question is not what was promised to us four thousand years ago, but what we do now in the third millennium, how we solve the situation we are in now."

When asked whether or not he thought God gave the land to the Jewish people, another resident replied, "I think it's rubbish. I think the land belongs to the universe and to everybody; and everybody should live wherever he think it's good for him."

Israelis may one day have a referendum to vote on more land concessions. And the global pressure to negotiate with Arafat could force still another change of government in Jerusalem. But Bible believers say the land decisions are ultimately out of the hands of even Israelis.

"This is not Israel's land. This is not the Jewish people's land. This is God's land that He has given to the people He has chosen," Cohen said. "Leviticus 25:23 says, ‘This land is mine. It shall not be sold forever. You are strangers and sojourners with me.’ And therefore, Israel, the Jewish people, do not have a right to give away this land, even if there were true peace being offered to us."

As the U.S. and other nations prepare to press for another cease-fire between Israelis and Palestinians, some Jewish residents of the West Bank — Judea and Samaria — worry that the international demands on their leaders will provoke clashes between Israel's government and its citizens.

Sondra Baras, an Orthodox Jew who lives in Samaria, says that before President Bush declares a state of Palestine, he should take another hard look at what the Scriptures say about the land.

She would tell Bush, "As a Bible-believing Christian, you have a duty and an obligation to ensure that the children of Israel, the modern day Jewish people, have a right to live all over the land of Israel in peace and security."

And what about the Palestinians? Paradoxically, Cohen and others believe that an acknowledgement of Israel's title deed to the land would be a blessing and not a curse for the Palestinian people. "If Israel fulfills its destiny, I believe that multitudes of Palestinians will be saved," he said.

Thousands of messianic Jews and Christians in Israel believe the growing chaos in the land is a sign that the Lord will return soon. They do not hope for much help from the world, but they hope today's headlines will signal a wakeup call for believers to read the signs of the times.

"My concern is, where is the Church?" Cohen said. "I don't expect politicians, I don't expect Muslims, I don't expect humanists to stand with Israel. But I expect the Church to. And the Church, for the most part, is not. At least, the Church in the West is not."

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1 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:14 PM PST by truthandlife
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To: Prov3456; esther2; Azbushgal; GretchenEE; ohioWfan; rabidralph; whoever; Hila; califordubya...
Pray without ceasing for our President in making the right decision about Israel
2 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:33 PM PST by truthandlife
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To: truthandlife
"And the Church, for the most part, is not. At least, the Church in the West is not."

1.) Judgment will begin in the House of the Lord.
2.) It is written in the Bible that God will belss those that bless His people and He will curse those that curse His people.
3.) As in Revelation, the Curches that are in the United States could have their candles removed from their lampstand.
4.) 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." And very few in this country have really and truly done what is spoken in that passage.
5.) Last, but not least: "God's word shall not return to Him void, but shall accomplish that where unto He sent it, and prosper in that which He pleases." That means that God's will shall be done with or without our (the church's) help or co-operation.

Of course, what do I know? I'm just a radical-minded RadicalRik

3 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:35 PM PST by RadicalRik
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To: truthandlife
I am confident that, since President Bush is praying himself without ceasing for God's wisdom, and since God's people in unprecedented numbers are also praying for him, he will come to the right decision on this issue.

We, as humans can only interpret Scripture with our finite minds. We just need to keep praying, as you said, that God's will will be done, through His servant, George W. Bush.

4 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:35 PM PST by ohioWfan
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To: BenF; New Horizon; sola gracia; a_witness; poet; Bellflower; careyb; Florida native...
5 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:42 PM PST by truthandlife
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To: dennisw; Lent; Nachum; jonatron; Israel; NorthernRight; TrueBeliever9; neutrino; d4now...
6 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:50 PM PST by truthandlife
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To: truthandlife; sheltonmac
I just posted this on another thread and thought it might apply here. I pray for our President every day that he might do God's will - not mine.

Sad, but the 'Mosaic veil' stills cover the eyes of most US Christians. The 'promised land' promise was fulfilled according to the Old Testament Scriptures. Joshua 21: 43 -45 states it very clearly.

I find no place in Scripture where this promise was in perpetuity. Disobedience to the I AM has left them spirituality bankrupt. I know, I know, you will quote the prophets to me about their promised return to the Land. That has already taken place as well. See the writings of Ezra and Nehemiah.

But now the "New Covenant" has come through Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. All who receive him in faith are brought into all of the promises made to Abraham. In fact, the Apostle Paul - a Jew himself - stated that all who believe in Jesus Christ are in fact the "sons" of Abraham. Wow, think of that. I am a Jew and now, by faith, inhabit the new Jerusalem, which is from above. See the book of Galatians and Hebrews of the New Testament if you have any doubts.

7 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:50 PM PST by sola gracia
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To: truthandlife
Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Truthandlife, Although it does appear this way, remember the verses above and then read this below:


Note by Steve Shultz: David Dreiling is not only a good friend of 13 years, but a significant prophetic voice. As time goes on, those things he has to share are more and more for this nation and for Israel. As a Jewish man himself, God has been instilling into him more and more the Heart of the Father for Israel. I believe this word to be from the Lord.

--- Steve Shultz




A Word through David Dreiling, Tennessee

David's email:

Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:50 PM


(Tennessee) -After viewing the George W. Bush's address to the nation this evening, it seems more clear to me than ever that this President truly has Godly Christian values and perspectives. I believe that many, if not the vast majority of Christians, Jews, and Messianic believers feel the same way.




Nevertheless, many, especially among my brethren in the Messianic Jewish community, and the ever-growing numbers of Christians who have lately felt a strong stirring from the Lord to support Israel--feel confused and angered by the Bush administration's proposal that the United States is ready to recognize and support the establishment of a Palestinian state.




I believe that God has spoken to me on this issue. Let me explain.

When the President's remarks concerning this Palestinian issue first became public-- about six weeks ago I instantly felt the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit) whisper in my ear, "This plan is of Me". As I prayed more about it I believe that G-d spoke a little of His strategy to me and I offer it to you in the hopes of reconciling this dilemma concerning whether Bush is being led by God or buckling to pressure from the Arab coalition and others blind to Israel's situation.




First, it is clear to many believers that G-d's word clearly gave the land of Israel to the Jews forever. The establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 stands as clear testimony that G-d has not abandoned His covenantal relationship with the Children of Israel.

If the Jews were not important in G-d's end-time purposes, why would Satan focus the greatest evil of 20th century and current movements (Nazism and Islamic fundamentalism) on the destruction and death of the Jews. Simply put, the Jews are pivotal in G-d's heart and purposes and the land on which the proposed Palestinian state would occupy is land given to the Jews. I think we all agree on this point. Why then would G-d allow the United States and many other nations' push for Palestinian statehood?




What I believe G-d spoke to me is that Yasser Arafat, the Islamic Fundamentalist "Poster Boy" will lose his stature and political impact if Palestinian statehood occurs.

As it is now, in the mind of the world and the American press, the poor Palestinians are refugees. They are persecuted, poor and homeless. It seems to makes sense that they are so "hopeless" that they can't help but kill those evil Israelis with their big tanks and high tech helicopters.

However, if Yasser Arafat and his people become a real "state", then they become accountable for "state sponsored terrorism". I believe Arafat would much rather be perceived as a peace-loving statesman who can't be held accountable for the acts of a rightfully angry, persecuted people.

Give him a state and he is in trouble.

Not only will his propaganda campaign suffer, but it will also become clear that he is no true Moslem fundamentalist. He is more of a politician. He just might end up being about as popular as Saddam Hussein.




So, when the USA or the UN offers him a state, I believe, he will refuse--- citing the absolute requirement that Jerusalem (not East Jerusalem) be the capitol of Palestine. He will demand unconditional control of the Temple Mount--something Israel will NEVER relinquish.

A Temple Mount governed by Israel is safe for Moslem worshipers. One governed by Arafat would quickly prohibit Jews and Christians from visiting the Wailing Wall and worshipping there. I believe that Adonai intends to let the entire conflict boil down to the few acres that make up the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.




Either Arafat will refuse the USA/UN proposal for statehood, as he did Barak's liberal offer, or it will work against him and the Palestinians. The land will surely be returned to Israeli sovereignty, and the day will come when, according to Scripture, "all Israel shall be saved!"

Yet, sometimes G-d's ways are not at all evident. I believe that it is G-d's intent by George Bush's offer of statehood--to expose Arafat's motivations and convictions for what they are. The time will come when all nations will abandon Israel, but is that time just yet?

Zech 12:1-4:

"1 The burden of the word of the L-RD against Yisrael. Thus says the Adonai, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: "Behold, I will make Yerushalim a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Yehudah and Yerushalim. "And it shall happen in that day that I will make Yerushalim a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 'In that day,' says the Adonai, 'I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Yehudah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.'"




Furthermore, I felt Like the L-rd told me that the land in question (The west Bank and East Jerusalem) had effectively been given to the Palestinians in the Oslo accords. I believe those negotiations greatly grieved the L-rd. The intent of the agreement, that the Palestinians would have their own armed police force which would cooperate with Israel and stop terrorism and recognize Israel's right to exist-- was a pipe dream from the outset.

Were Israel today to not give statehood and try to reassert their right to govern the West Bank they would be viewed by the world as hostile invaders.




I don't know President Bush's motivation in supporting a Palestinian state. Nevertheless, I believe that G-d is, as we should expect and believe, guiding his thoughts.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the L-RD, like the rivers of water; he turns it wherever He wishes.

Prayer Points:

a) Pray for Americans and especially the American press to get a clearer picture of the character, integrity, and incredible restraint of the leaders in Israel, as over against opposite nature of the PA. Pray that the Americans and the press come to see that many of Mr. Bush's remarks about the Taliban apply equally well to Yasser Arafat's positions. Bin Ladin clearly expressed this when he said that the Americans were responsible for the events of September 11th because of their support of Israel and that the Jihad would continue as long as the Palestinians were being mistreated by Israel.

b) Pray that the L-rd would send confusion into the enemies camp and blindness as expressed in Zech 12:4 above .

David Dreiling

8 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:55 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: OkieGrit2
Respectfully, neither the king nor the president is God. We need to afford them proper respect and conduct ourselves as law abiding citizens but when their actions contradict God's word "we must obey God rather than man."

Where in my post did you see anything that contradicts this statement?? Nowhere. I said, and I mean, that President Bush is seeking God's will in this matter, and that we must pray that he comes to the right decision. I just have confidence that he will.

I find no mention of a "Palestinian State" in scripture and no repeal of the Abrahamic Covenant.

There is also no mention of the United States of America in Scripture, so what is the point of there being no mention of a Palestinian State? I repeat, we as finite human beings need to be careful about assuming that our interpretation of Scripture is completely accurate. There are many interpretations of prophesy, and yours is one among many.

Since God has appointed George W. Bush to lead this land, and since he is seeking to do God's will, we must pray that he comes to the right decision. What he does can in no way "repeal the Abrahamic Covenant."

I trust God. So does the President.

10 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:00 PM PST by ohioWfan
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To: truthandlife
I read a prophecy in Elijah List last week regarding this very thing. He said he believed God was in it and it would show up Arafat and put him in a very bad light. Arafat probably won't accept this treaty and it will do him in. I'm not sure of everything he said, but if you want to see it, just get on Elijah List. It was very interesting.
11 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:01 PM PST by Marysecretary
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To: AmericaUnited
Thanks for posting this. It was exactly the prophecy I was telling another poster about. Bless you. Isn't Elijah List wonderful? It's such an encouragement to me in these difficult times when nobody knows what's happening, but God knows and reveals it to his people.
12 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:01 PM PST by Marysecretary
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To: AmericaUnited
Very interesting. The Elijah list is not the Bible but I can see how God is orchestrating this whole Palestinian State issue according to how the Elijah list has spelled it out. We just need to still keep praying for the peace of Jerusalem and our President. I truly believe:

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the L-RD, like the rivers of water; he turns it wherever He wishes.

God is ultimately in control. I just don't want to see the United States be destroyed by the endorsement of a Palestinian State.

13 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:02 PM PST by truthandlife
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To: ohioWfan
Pres. Bush first and foremost is a politician who happens to be doing a fine job, however, I would not deify him just yet. Have you forgotten that he just signed a potential nasty law and also issued executive orders to ALL fed law enforcements agencies NOT to co-operate with congress relative to the treachery of the clintons.
He is also getting "in bed" with russia. Please keep your eyes open as this "war" has created a diversion.
Watch the home front. Watch the senate and congress. Have they become "rubber stamps"?
14 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:14 PM PST by poet
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To: poet
I would not deify him just yet.

Exactly why do you interpret respect and trust as 'deification'?? My posts make my position very clear. I'm sorry that you chose to misinterpret them.

I have not forgotten anything that he has done, nor are my eyes closed, except in prayer.

I will say it one more time. It is God Whom I trust, and President Bush only as he follows God's leading.

15 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:15 PM PST by ohioWfan
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To: ohioWfan
Oops. I mis-interpreted your post. My apology.
I trust no politician. My trust is in Yahweh and His beloved Son Yashua Messiah. thus, I do not live in fear.
16 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:21 PM PST by poet
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To: poet
My trust is in Yahweh and His beloved Son Yashua Messiah. thus, I do not live in fear.

Amen!!! And thank you!

17 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:26 PM PST by ohioWfan
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To: AmericaUnited
10:21 Nov-16-01, 1 Kislev 5762

US Satellites Continue Photographing Yesha Communities

( The American intelligence community continues photographing Yesha communities and their nearby encampments via satellites, carefully monitoring any changes in building in those communities.

It has been learned that satellite photos have been shown to members of the defense minister?s staff with US officials demanding an explanation.
18 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:27 PM PST by Israel
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To: truthandlife
If we turn our backs on Israel, shame on us. The prior Prime Minister offered a tremendous amount of land in the name of peace to arafat and he refused to accept it.
The reason arafat refused is that he is sworn to destroy Israel.

Question: Is this "palestine state" another part of the coming "new world order"?

19 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:37 PM PST by poet
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To: truthandlife
That land was given to the desendants of Ya'acov not Ishamel or Esau. Most nations either don't know this or don't believe it. Personally, as out of fashion as it is, I believe and submit to the will of the creator of the Universe. Historically those who don't wind up as a grease spot on somebody elses shoe.
20 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:41 PM PST by hsszionist
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