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Islam vs Christianity....... Why do they want to kill us, if they came from us?

Posted on 11/16/2001 3:26:05 PM PST by Hillary's Lovely Legs

Basic Beliefs of Christians and Muslims Table

Basic beliefs of Christians and Muslims
side by side

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Belief in What Christians Believe What Muslims Believe
God God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity. However, to say that God is three is a blasphemy of the highest order. All three parts of the Trinity are "coequal" "co-eternal" and "the same substance." For this reason, this doctrine is described as "a mystery."  God is one God in the most basic, simple, and elementary meaning of the word. He has no children, no parents nor any equal. In Islam God is known by the name "Allah" and more than 99 other venerated names, such as "the Merciful," "the Gracious," "the All-Powerful," etc. 
Jesus The second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time "fully" God in every respect.  A very elect and highly esteemed messenger of God. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe this. 
The Holy Spirit The third member of the Triune God, but also "fully" God in every respect.  He is the angel Gabriel. The angel Gabriel is highly esteemed as the "Trustworthy Spirit" 
Mary the mother of Jesus A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time "fully" God Almighty in every respect.  A chaste and pious human woman who was chosen, purified, and preferred over all of the women of creation to be the one to give birth to Gods elect messenger Jesus through the command of God without any father whatsoever. 
The Word Part of God which was "with" God but also "fully" God and then became Jesus the Son of God.  God's command "Be!" which resulted in Jesus' conception in the womb of Mary without the need for a human father. 
Previous prophets All accepted, respected, and believed.  All accepted, respected, and believed.
The Bible Accepted as 100% the faultless word of God  Muslims believe in the books of the previous prophets including the "Torah" which was sent to Moses, the "Zaboor" (Psalms) which were given to David, the "Injeel" (Gospel) which was given to Jesus, and the Qur'an which was given to Muhammad However, Muslims are told that the previous scriptures were tampered with by mankind and the Bible should only be accepted in as far as it is confirmed by the Qur'an. It is to be treated with respect, however any statements which clearly oppose those of the Qur'an are to be rejected as the work of mankind. 
Muhammad Varying beliefs. Some believe that he was a liar, some believe he was a lunatic, some believe he was the False Messiah, and yet others claim he was deceived by the Devil.  The last messenger of God to all of humanity. He was known as "The Truthful, the Trustworthy" before he received his first revelation. He was sent by God as a mercy to all creation. He was a human being but performed a number of miracles during his lifetime by the will of God. 
The Qur'an Varying beliefs ranging from it being a copy of the Bible to it being the work of Muhammad (pbuh), to it's being the work of Christians and Jews who were conspiring with Muhammad.  The last book of God sent to mankind. It was given the distinction of being personally guarded by God from human tampering. It is on a literary level never before seen by mankind. No Arab to this day has ever been able to meet it's challenge to "write a work similar to it." It shall remain safe from the tampering of mankind till the day of Judgment as a guidance for all Humanity. 
Message of Jesus That he was sent by God (who was at the same time "fully" Jesus) in order to die on the cross and save all mankind from the sin of Adam. Without this sacrifice all of humanity was destined to perish in the sin of Adam. After the crucifixion all that is required of humanity is faith without any works.  That he was sent by God as a messenger to the Jews in order to return them to the pure and true religion of Moses, and to relieve them of some of the regulations which had been placed upon them in ancient times. He taught them to have faith as well as works. Neither one can stand alone. 
Jesus' giving life to the dead, healing the blind and the lepers  All accepted. He performed them because he was the Son of God and also at the same time "fully" God and the "incarnation" of God.  All accepted. They were performed through the will of God just as Moses, Noah, and all other prophets did so in ancient times through the will of God. 
The crucifixion Jesus was given over to the Jews. He was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped, and finally hung up on the cross and killed very slowly and painfully.  Jesus was not forsaken to the Jews to be abused and killed, however, it was "made to appear so to them." God saved Jesus by raising him up unto Himself. 
The second coming of Jesus. Accepted. Originally expected to happen during the lifetime of the first disciples, many predictions have been made later and he is still expected at any moment. He is currently anticipated to arrive around the turn of the century (2000 C.E.)  Accepted. Jesus did not die but was raised up into heaven by God. He shall return to earth just before the Day of Judgment in order to kill the "False Messiah" and to establish peace and justice on earth. He will kill the pigs, break the cross, and call all humanity to Islam. 
The original sin All of humanity has inherited the sin of Adam. Only the death of the sinless offspring of God could erase this sin. No one is born clean, no matter if his life is only for a single day. Only baptism and faith in the death of Jesus can save one from this destiny.  There is no such thing. Humanity is created by God destined for heaven unless they chose to disobey Him and refuse His mercy. God can very trivially and effortlessly forgive the sins of all of Humanity no matter if they were to fill the lofty regions of the sky. Such a matter would be trivial and inconsequential for Him since He has already done much more than that such as creating everything we can ever see, hear or imagine. He loves to bestow His mercy and forgiveness on His creation and rewards the most trivial acts with the most tremendous rewards. In order to achieve God's reward one must have faith as well as works 
The atonement The sin of Adam was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless innocent god named Jesus who was also "fully" God.  Adam "atoned" for his sin by saying "My Lord I have sinned and if you do not forgive me and have mercy upon me then I shall indeed have lost." So God forgave him. Similarly, all human beings have the door to forgiveness left open to them by God until the day they die. There are no intermediaries between mankind and God. If they sincerely repent to God, ask His forgiveness, and forsake their evil deeds before their hour comes then He shall forgive them and there is nothing more pleasing to Him than to forgive the sins of one who comes to Him in sincere repentance. 
The path to salvation If you have faith in the atonement of Jesus for the sin of Adam which you have inherited then you shall be saved. You only need faith. No work is necessary.  If you have faith in God, believe in His messengers, and obey His commands then He shall multiply every single good deed that you do many, many times and erase your evil deeds, until on the Day of Judgment His mercy shall cause your good deeds to far outweigh your evil deeds and grant you passage into an ecstasy and Paradise so great that we can not even imagine it, to abide there eternally. In the Hereafter there is only reward and no work. 



    In this book it will be demonstrated (by God's will), through the words of the Bible and some of history's most eminent conservative Biblical scholars and references only, how most of the founding beliefs of Christianity today were indeed inserted by mankind into the message of Jesus long after his departure. Jesus (pbuh) himself never had anything whatsoever to do with them. These beliefs include:

The "Trinity."
The claim that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God in the later "orthodox" sense.
The "original sin" of Adam which mankind is alleged to have inherited.
The "atonement," or death of Jesus (pbuh) on the cross in order to erase this sin of Adam.
The "incarnation" of God in the form of a human being, namely, Jesus (pbuh).

It will further be demonstrated that the true message of Jesus (pbuh) was:

That God is One. He is indivisible. He has no equal.
God has no children nor parents. There is no other god in existence other than God Himself.
Jesus (pbuh) was a human being. He was not God, but only an elect messenger of God.
God does not hold anyone responsible for the sin of anyone else, nor does He forgive the sins of one man by sacrificing another.
God does not give preference to a certain race, color, nation, lineage or anything else above any other. Only a person's individual actions and worship will distinguish them in the eyes of God.
God's justice refuses that any human being bear the sin of any other.
God is a merciful god who bestows His forgiveness without a price or asking for any compensation.
Entering into heaven requires both faith and work. Neither one can stand alone.

Muslims are taught that throughout the ages, God sent messengers to all tribes and nations all over the earth beginning with Adam (pbuh), the first prophet of God as well as the father of humanity. Every time a messenger of God would pass away, his people would begin to fall back on their evil deeds until a few generations later they would have managed to have completely corrupted His original message to them. When God's message was in danger of being completely obliterated by these people, He would chose from among them a new messenger to receive the original, uncorrupted message and convey it to them. Some of them would listen. Others would not. However, the message would always be available for those who wanted it. In this manner, God made sure that all of mankind would always have access to His true religion, no matter where or when they lived. It would then be up to them to seek out this knowledge.

Muslims are further taught that each messenger was sent only to his own people. His message was then fine-tuned to suit them. Thus, the basic message would be the same for all messengers: "God is one!, Worship Him alone!" However, the details of each people's worship would be molded to suit their lifestyle, state of knowledge, and so forth. This was also true for Jesus (pbuh). Jesus was sent specifically to the Jews, and only to the Jews. It shall be demonstrated how one of the most fundamental reasons which led up to the loss of his message was that those who came after him attempted to preach it to those for whom it was never intended, namely, the Gentiles. The Gentiles eventually managed to introduce into the message of Jesus many aspects of their own beliefs which ultimately led up to the loss of the message of Jesus.

This book demonstrates how the diversion of the religion of Jesus (pbuh) from it's original teachings progressed in the following stages:

Jesus (pbuh) came to show the Jews how their religion had been changed from that preached to them by Moses and their previous prophets (pbut).
Jesus (pbuh) called the Jews back to the true religion of God sent down upon their previous messengers. Jesus himself observed every single aspect of the religion of Moses (pbuh) steadfastly and uncompromisingly. He fasted as Moses (pbuh) fasted, he worshipped as Moses (pbuh) worshipped, he refrained from tasting a single pig, he believed in circumcision and himself was circumcised, he observed the Sabbath, never having violated it. He did this up until the crucifixion. It was only after the crucifixion, according to the Bible, that he allegedly returned in "visions" to Paul in order to nullify the law he had spent his whole life upholding. The Bible actually bears witness that during his lifetime, Jesus commanded his followers to follow the religion of Moses (pbuh) and threatened severe retribution from God for all of his followers who would forsake a single aspect of this religion until the end of time (see below).
Jesus (pbuh) departed from this earth and his apostles continued to follow his teachings religiously. They too followed the religion of Moses (pbuh) as Jesus (pbuh) had done before them and commanded them to do. For the first three decades after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), the followers of Jesus would merely be Jews who affirmed that Jesus (pbuh) was their promised Messiah. For the first three decades after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), his followers would continue to worship in the synagogues and Temple of the Jews and observe all of the aspects of the religion of Moses (pbuh) without exception.
Shortly after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), a Jew named Saul of Tarsus persecutes Jesus' followers every way he knows how. By his own admission, he does his utmost to utterly waste the Church and to wipe the religion of Jesus from the face of the earth and the minds of men. He has never met Jesus (pbuh) in person.
Suddenly Saul claims to be receiving "visions" from Jesus (pbuh). The apostle Barnabas takes him under his wing, and through Barnabas he is accepted by the rest of the apostles. Barnabas then travels with him extensively until his reputation as a persecutor and killer of Christians is replaced with one of a true convert.
Now Saul parts ways with the apostle of Jesus (pbuh), Barnabas, and decides to preach to the Gentiles. He claims that the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) are lazy, misguided, hypocrites. He claims that it was necessary for him to constantly guide the apostles out of their ignorance into the truth of God which he was receiving in his "visions." He openly claims that he learned nothing from the apostles, and every single word he preached was from direct divine inspiration. The neighboring gentiles hated the Jews with such a passion that he found it all but impossible to convince them to accept the Judaism that Jesus (pbuh) practiced his whole life and taught his apostles to carry on after him until the end of time.
Saul readily admits in the Bible in many places that he was willing to do anything without exception in order to convert the gentiles. He claims that everything has been made lawful for him. For this reason, Saul begins to compromise with the pagan gentiles and simplify the religion of Jesus for them in order to make it more appealing to them that they might convert.
Saul continues to compromise with the gentiles and mold the religion of Jesus (pbuh) closer and closer to their established beliefs in order to gain their conversion. In the end, all that he requires of them is "faith" without work. The pagan gentiles he is preaching to worship many "sons of almighty Jupiter or Zeus" and other such gods. Among them are such as Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, etc. They believe that these pagan gods had died for their sins and been resurrected. Saul now explains to them that Jesus (pbuh) was not merely a normal human prophet but a "Son of God" and that this "Son of God" died in atonement for the sins of all mankind. The Gentiles immediately see the parallels and the great degree of similarity with that which they already believe. All they have to do is change a few labels. In this manner, Saul manages to convince the Greeks (and other gentiles) to accept the "religion of Jesus." This is because, unlike the Jews, the religion of the Greeks already accepts "Trinities," and "father gods" and "son gods," and the death of gods, and the resurrection of gods, and the incarnation of gods, and divine savior gods, and the eating of the flesh of gods, and the drinking of the blood of gods...etc. All of these concepts are old news to them. He becomes a great leader among them and is named "Saint Paul."
"Saint Paul" now writes extensively and gains more and more converts.
Once his converts begin to exceed the number of converts to the more strict and demanding religion of the apostles of Jesus (pbuh), they begin to kill the followers of the apostles, persecute them, and burn their Gospels.
The followers of "Saint Paul" are challenged to prove their claims of "son of God," "original sin," ..etc. through the scriptures and prove that Jesus (pbuh) or God had anything to do with them. They cannot. There are too many verses which declare that there is only ONE God in existence and that He does not hold mankind responsible for the sin of any man. Examples of these verses are available to this day (e.g. Isaiah 43:10-11, Ezekiel 18:19-20, Deuteronomy 24:16...etc.). Thus, it becomes necessary for them to recognize that God is a "Trinity" similar to the ancient "Trinities" of the Greeks and Romans so that they can have three Gods but claim that they only worship one. The ancient "Trinities" of Greek philosophy are redefined with new labels and applied to God Almighty in order to define this new doctrine of "three gods in one." Once again, the "Trinity" could not be proven through the Bible, so the Church began to receive divine inspiration from God commanding them to clarify their Bible so that the "Trinity" could be seen clearly (see for example section These "clarifications" would only be discovered by the scholars of Christianity centuries later. They would later provide irrefutable proof of how, when, and by whom these "clarifications" were inserted into the Bible. In the twentieth century, Thirty two conservative biblical scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating denominations would justly throw out 1 John 5:7 as a fabricated insertion of the church. Many other fabrications would be discovered by them.
For the first four centuries CE Christianity is split into innumerable sects of countless divergent beliefs. Countless gospels of varying degrees of authenticity begin to spring up. These sects bitterly fight among one another with each one claiming that they alone possess the "true" religion of Jesus and the "true" Gospel. All of these sect vie for the backing of the Roman pagans in order to gain the upper hand over the other sects and silence them once and for all.
In the fourth century CE., the followers of the "Trinity" manage to enlist the aid of the pagan Roman empire. They wield the power of this pagan nation to "cleanse" the earth of the "heretical" and "blasphemous" followers of the apostles. They later launch campaigns of "inquiry" to "convert" them.
"Trinitarian" beliefs are touted as the only truly correct religion of Jesus (pbuh). The writings of Paul are collected and today they form the majority of the books of the new testament. The books of the apostles are burned. They are all labeled "apocryphal" lies. The list of "truly inspired" books of the Bible that we have in our hands today was not officially sanctioned until the year 367C.E. The "Bibles" in the hands of the first three hundred years of Christians was very drastically different than the ones in our hands today. Within the span of a three centuries the Trinitarians manage to "recognize" that all of the books that were considered inspired and divine during the very first centuries CE were indeed all lies and apocrypha. Only those books that were considered apocryphal during these very first centuries CE are now recognized to be canonical, authentic, and divine. Those who are found concealing the original books of the apostles are now burned to death with their books. Paul's followers obtain copies of the Gospels of the apostles. They copy them but with drastic modifications to the doctrine found therein. They claim that the apostles wrote them. These books are attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The additions to these books will continue for many more centuries. Only centuries later will Christian scholars begin to see the evidence that the claimed authors did not write these books.
Since the general populace of Christendom is perceived by the Church to be too backward and heathenistic to understand such sacred scriptures, therefore it becomes necessary for the Church to horde the Bible for their own personal use. Anyone who wishes to learn what the Bible says must come to the Church and ask them. The Church then through a combination of divine inspiration and verses of the Bible will tell them what they need to know.
Six hundred years after Christ, Muhammad (pbuh) is born. He follows the religion of Abraham (pbuh) which was handed down to him and all Arabs from the father of the Arabs, Ishmael, the eldest son of prophet Abraham (pbut). Upon reaching the age of 40, God sends the angel Gabriel to Muhammad to teach him His final message, the message of Islam. He tells him that the "people of the book" have changed the religion of Jesus (pbuh) and have altered it from a religion of submission to one God to a religion where multiple gods are being worshipped. He is told that he will be the final messenger, and that his message is to be directed to all of mankind including the Jews and Christians.
The Jews and Christians claim that Muhammad (pbuh) is a liar, a lunatic, deceived by the Devil, and a false prophet. They claim that he has just copied the Bible in order to write his Qur'an. Just as many Jews refused to accept Jesus (pbuh) as a true messenger of God, so too do many Jews and Christians refuse to believe Muhammad (pbuh).
Muhammad (pbuh) passes away. The Trinitarians continue with their burning at the stake any Christian who opposes the "Trinity" or openly speaks about the discrepancies in the Bible. They launch campaigns of "inquiry" to cleanse the earth of all remnants of believers in one (monotheistic) God. They slaughter the Jews at every opportunity. The sentences of death by these inquisitions become so unbounded in their nature that whole nations are sentenced to death. A single holy decree of the Trinitarian church in 1568 would later condemn three million men women and children of the Netherlands to the scaffold as heretics. In the end, over twelve million people were put to death through the authority of the "Inquisitions."
The Church loses its power to the scientists and is pushed into a dark corner. Without the threat of death hanging over their heads, many Christian scholars begin to publish countless books exhibiting detailed examples of contradicting verses and evidence of modification and tampering with the text of the Bible. The ancient manuscripts of the Christian society are studied in detail and slowly, the previous picture begins to come together. Countless excuses are made by the Church and those who's livelihood and power depend on these established beliefs. They now begin to give practically every single verse of the Bible "abstract" meanings. They tell their flock to have blind faith. They convince their flock that they can not understand the Bible without the interpretation and holy inspiration of the Church. They tell their flock that Jesus (pbuh) never means what he says and that every reference he makes to following the religion of Moses (pbuh) is not meant to be taken "literally" but was meant by Jesus (pbuh) to have "hidden" meanings totally in opposition to the obvious meanings. Only they can tell you what these hidden meanings of Jesus (pbuh) were.
Copies of the original Gospels of the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) begin to surface. They are found, of all places, hidden away in the capital of Christianity, the Vatican itself. These Gospels (Such as the "Gospel of Barnabas") confirm the teachings of the Qur'an. Copies of these Gospels have a tendency to disappear mysteriously. They are labels false Gospels and lies written by Muslims. Suddenly, in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls are discovered. For close to forty five years, they are hoarded in Israel and hidden from the masses. When they are finally forced out into the open, an amazing discovery is made. They too confirm the Qur'an! They foretell the coming of not one but TWO Messiahs. They claim that these two Messiahs will be announced by an eschatological prophet. The dual prophesy is very clear and prevalent throughout the scrolls. The scrolls claim that the first Messiah will be betrayed by one of his followers but will not be forsaken by God to die, rather, the one who betrayed him shall be taken in his place. The scrolls specifically state that no nail shall touch the Messiah. There is so much in the Dead Sea Scrolls that parallels the teachings of the Qur'an, however, once again it is all explained away with abstract meanings. We are told that the fact that the Jews who lived 100 years before Jesus (the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls) were expecting TWO Messiahs does not mean that they were expecting two different Messiahs, but rather, they must have been expecting a single Messiah with two different personalities. Thus, we are told, Jesus (pbuh) is BOTH Messiahs. On the other hand, the Jews explain that both prophesies refer to past or future occurrences and neither one could possibly refer to Jesus (pbuh) or Muhammad (pbuh).

Muslims are told that when God created mankind, He gave them "The Choice." They were told that they could either live their lives then die and fade out of the picture, like the animals do. Or they could elect to be held accountable for their actions. If they accepted the accountability, then the potential reward will be great. The potential retribution would be equally great.

With mankind's acceptance of this accountability came their free will. God gave mankind a free will to chose to either worship Him or to disobey Him. Out of God's infinite mercy, He then assisted mankind with many factors in order to guide them to His true path and the ultimate reward. Firstly, He sent the messengers. In this manner, no matter how much mankind tried to corrupt His religion, it would always be available to those who searched for it.

Secondly, He supplied mankind with minds. He gave them these minds in order to be able to distinguish between right and wrong using their intellect. If they see someone worshipping fire, and they see that the fire can not hear their prayers nor answer their calls, then no matter how much these fire-worshippers "spititualize" their worship and tell them of the great miracles the fire has worked for them and how it has answered their prayers, and how it "loves" them, their intellect will refuse to believe these concoctions.

Finally, God gave mankind an inborn sense called in Arabic "Fitrah" (instinct). This "Fitrah" is the small voice inside each one of us which tells us "this doesn't feel right." When we pick up a gun for the first time in order to kill someone, we have to fight mightily in order to overcome our "Fitrah" which tells us that killing is wrong. In a similar manner, all mankind is born automatically knowing that "God is one." They must really fight themselves for a long time and be continually persuaded by those who are around them to believe otherwise. This is how they end up worshipping fire, stones, statues, multiple gods, and other things. It is forced upon them in spite of their "Fitrah" as they grow up.

This book goes back to the arguments of the original apostles. We will start with the "Trinity" and work our way backwards through history. We will see that there is absolutely no basis whatsoever for the "Trinity" in the Bible. Once the "Trinity" has been disproved we will see how the rest of these fabricated beliefs will unravel one by one till we return to the original teaching of Jesus (pbuh). All of this will be done in chapter one. After that, it will be demonstrated how Muhammad (pbuh) was indeed prophesied by both Jesus (pbuh) and the previous prophets, as claimed in the Qur'an over 1400 years ago. I pray that you will find this information illuminating.

Last modified: Fri Nov 15 18:28:57 EST 1996

NOTE:  The above table is taken from the book, "What Did Jesus Really Say". The page was downloaded from, where the complete text of the book is available on-line. 

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TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; christianpersecutio
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1 posted on 11/16/2001 3:26:05 PM PST by Hillary's Lovely Legs
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
Am I to understand that this is trying to say that Christians and Islam are alike?

I think not. It makes several generalities about chrisitanity that I disagree with, such as Salvation is by grace alone, works don't matter! This is not scriptural.

I don't buy this tripe.

2 posted on 11/16/2001 3:52:07 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
God told Abraham that the decendants of Ishmael (Arabs) would be like a wild donkey, against all and all would be against them. Keep in mind this was 4,000 years before they found Islam, which made things even worse.

This bit of prophecy in Genesis is very telling and very profound.

3 posted on 11/16/2001 3:58:36 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
there is absolutely no basis whatsoever for the "Trinity" in the Bible

Whoops. It's off to the trashcan for this piece.

4 posted on 11/16/2001 4:06:43 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: wwjdn; *Christian_list; *Christian persecutio
5 posted on 11/16/2001 4:09:40 PM PST by Khepera
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To: Khepera
Don't be bumpin' me
6 posted on 11/16/2001 4:38:28 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
God is three gods merged into one God.

No Christian believes this! I don't know too much about Islam, but I do know about Christianity, and this list of what Christians believe is loaded with error from start to finish.

This chart will be of no help in understanding the difference between the false religion of Islam and the true religion of Christianity.

7 posted on 11/16/2001 4:43:42 PM PST by good1
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
A further thought: If the chart on Christianity is so wrong, I can't help but believe that the chart on Islam is erroneous as well.

Enquiring minds will have to look elsewhere for reliable data on this subject.

8 posted on 11/16/2001 4:46:25 PM PST by good1
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To: good1
No Christian believes this!

Correct! Bogus, bogus. Even a rudimentary knowledge of Christianity SHOULD have shown this to be bogus!

9 posted on 11/16/2001 4:51:37 PM PST by Howlin
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To: RightWhale; Howlin
10 posted on 11/16/2001 4:55:44 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: wwjdn
'works don't matter'
Yeah. Didn't Jesus say 'take up the cross and follow me'? The works argument always confounded me.
11 posted on 11/16/2001 5:19:54 PM PST by Darheel
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To: wwjdn
Didn't Jesus say: "I am the Way, The Truth and The Light." I can't speak to the author of this article any other way than to say, THIS is what I believe. You cannot interject your beliefs into an objective analysis of two opposing ideologies. I am afraid that is exactly what the author of this article does throughout.
12 posted on 11/16/2001 5:55:22 PM PST by jackd
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
File this one in the circular file cabinet under "R" for "Rubbish".
13 posted on 11/16/2001 9:01:45 PM PST by etcetera
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
Please note the link to, which is a pro-Islam site - and the bias shows.
14 posted on 11/17/2001 2:03:52 AM PST by Midnightwriter
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To: good1
God is three gods merged into one God.

This sounds like the statement of an ancient Roman pagan trying to harmonize paganism and Christianity. I don't know of any Christian-- Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Christian Scientist, Jehovah's Witness or whatever which would believe this.

Maybe since the Muslims on Islam.Com are comfortable writing what we beleive as Christians, we should rewrite their religion too.

Of course, if all Muslims actually beleived what was outlined here and would abandon their notions of "covert or subjugate/destroy", I'd have no problem with them. They'd be welcome to worship moon rocks, wrap themselves from head to toe in gauze and eat goat's liver in peace so long as they don't demand that I be converted or killed.

15 posted on 11/17/2001 2:20:15 AM PST by Rubber Duckie
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To: Rubber Duckie
Woops, this is not how they teach it in GA's
16 posted on 11/17/2001 2:29:59 AM PST by DooDahhhh
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To: wwjdn
"It makes several generalities about chrisitanity that I disagree with, such as Salvation is by grace alone, works don't matter! "

Agreed. Being a Jesus implored the people to do good works. He also implored them NOT to do good works for the sake of accolades, medals, etc. In other words, don't do good works for personal gain. "Let not the left hand know what the right is doing." I'm not sure if that's an exact quote, but I know it's close.

Jesus was the first to promote "random acts of kindness", for the sake of G_d, and for the sake of humanity. I.e.: good works.

17 posted on 11/17/2001 2:37:31 AM PST by cake_crumb
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
Most of what I see here about Islam is true, though.

It's the Wahabists - like bin Laden - who have corrupted the religion.

18 posted on 11/17/2001 2:39:12 AM PST by cake_crumb
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs; TrueBeliever9; Rubber Duckie; DooDahhhh; cake_crumb
As a pastor, elder, and former chaplain in the military, I'm as much struck by the writer's failure to adequately depict Christianity as by the attempt to converge the two belief systems.

What strikes me as the most glaring example of the author's bias is the section regarding Jesus' return. Originally expected to happen during the lifetime of the first disciples, many predictions have been made later and he is still expected at any moment. He is currently anticipated to arrive around the turn of the century (2000 C.E.)

There is not a single statement in there with which I would not disagree. It is an extremely PREJUDICED position on the beliefs of Christianity.

Allow me to say finally, regarding the Trinity: The article said this about the Muslim belief regarding allah (their god); He has no children, no parents nor any equal.

The Apostle John warned of this:

1 John 2 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

1 John 4 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 4You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

19 posted on 11/17/2001 2:45:39 AM PST by xzins
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To: cake_crumb
Actually since it's an Islam site, I don't really care what it says about Christianity, but I did care what it said about Islam. What I found perplexing was that they claim to respect Christ and that they come from Abraham, yet they want to kill us. It doesn't make any sense at all.
20 posted on 11/17/2001 4:35:18 AM PST by Hillary's Lovely Legs
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
This exposes the sad state of Islamic thought. Terribly mistaken with regard to Christianity, and verbose and unconvincing with regard to Islam.
21 posted on 11/17/2001 4:42:07 AM PST by history_matters
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To: cake_crumb
I do works because of love and obediance. Whatever I do is God's will and God's mercy and God's power not mine!
22 posted on 11/17/2001 5:13:34 AM PST by wwjdn
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To: Khepera; He Rides A White Horse; RnMomof7; George W. Bush; Weirdad
There are those that say works are un-necessary for salvation, and that is not Biblical. Here is one of the references I found:

James Chapter 1: (vs 16-27)

16 -Don't be deceived, my dear brothers.

17 -Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

18 -He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

19 -My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,

20 -for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

21 -Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

22 -Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

23 -Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror

24 -and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

25 -But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

26 -If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

27 -Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. Thereore, works do matter, according to the Bible.

23 posted on 11/18/2001 4:55:41 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: wwjdn
There are those that say works are un-necessary for salvation, and that is not Biblical. Here is one of the references I found

None of these things will save you.

24 posted on 11/18/2001 5:13:42 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: wwjdn
Ephesians 2:4-10

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

25 posted on 11/18/2001 5:27:32 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: wwjdn
2 John 1:7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1:8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1:10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
1:11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

1:12Having many things to write unto you, I would not [write] with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.ohn:

It is a mistake to even consider casual fellowship with them!

26 posted on 11/18/2001 5:36:03 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: wwjdn
Works are an expression of love. They don't save.
27 posted on 11/18/2001 5:36:13 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: He Rides A White Horse
Works alone will not save you, but you cannot just believe and do nothing. This is not God's will. It is a three phase approach: Faith, baptism and follow God's commandments (which include works).

There are many, many references to a "path less traveled" in the Bible, and also references to temptation and persacusion.

If you truly believe that faith alone is sufficent, then God's laws don't mean laws, they would then mean "guidelines" as to how you shoudl live.

One shoudl never attempt to boast about works for in John 14:10 "It is the Father, living in me, who is doing the work"

Sounds pretty clear to me.

28 posted on 11/18/2001 5:39:05 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: wwjdn
There are those that say works are un-necessary for salvation, and that is not Biblical.

This is what you said, and I was addressing that. They aren't necessary.

29 posted on 11/18/2001 5:42:59 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: He Rides A White Horse
They are a commanded by God the Father and Jesus the Son, and the actions of an obediant child or slave to glorify God and bring sinners to the glory. God works through us to attain Godly tasks. He can do them alone but he chooses us to do his works. If they are not necessary then who does God use for his works?

We are all ministers to God's grace and his greatness.

Definition (mine); Meaning of Life: To seek Heaven and take others with us to his Kingdom!

30 posted on 11/18/2001 5:43:56 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: wwjdn
I do works because of love and obediance.

I would agree with this.

31 posted on 11/18/2001 5:45:03 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: He Rides A White Horse
I have been a Southern Babtist all my life and I have been taught that if we believe we are saved....end of story, you can never be lost.

If this were true then explain Judas...One of the chosen 12 by Jesus who was saved and then lost salvation by evil works.

32 posted on 11/18/2001 5:46:15 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
33 posted on 11/18/2001 5:47:41 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: wwjdn
wwjdn, look at post 25. Refer to Ephesians 2:5, 2:8, 2:9.

They are very plain statements.

35 posted on 11/18/2001 5:51:20 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: wwjdn
Salvation is by grace alone, works don't matter!

Jesus said to the theif on the cross, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise."

Works flow from true faith and validate that it is there in the heart of a believer, but if there is no time for it to be expressed before death, that doesn't mean it is not there.

Therefore, salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone, and the result of salvation is good works done to glorify God.

Anyway, the post was meant to contrast the beliefs. I thought some of the Muslim beliefs on Christ's deity sounded a lot like Jehovah's Witnesses. (not to euqate the those two religions though!)

36 posted on 11/18/2001 5:54:05 PM PST by Terriergal
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
Muslims worship John The Babtist. I've seen the box in which they keep his head in a mosque in Damascas. They surround his head and pray to it from a prostrate position.
38 posted on 11/18/2001 5:55:51 PM PST by bayourod
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
This stuff is so full of inaccuracies about Christianity that it's beyond simple correction. The beginning of Mohamedenism coincided with a political ideology born of a sense of oppression and inferiority vis a vis the Byzantine Christians but really going back to all the western victories over the east going back to the Greeks (several times) and the Romans up to recent times (except for the Muslim conquest of most of southern and Eastern Europe. In other words, the only victories the people of the Middle East have experienced have been under the banner of Mohamed. This "religion" is fueled by a political ideology more than anything else.
39 posted on 11/18/2001 6:04:03 PM PST by eleni121
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To: wwjdn
I have been a Southern Babtist all my life and I have been taught that if we believe we are saved....end of story, you can never be lost.

If this were true then explain Judas...One of the chosen 12 by Jesus who was saved and then lost salvation by evil works.

Luke 22:1-6

22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

22:4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.

22:5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.

22:6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.

John 13:21-27

13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

13:22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

13:24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.

13:25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Judas gave himself up to Satan. He made that decision of his own freewill.

40 posted on 11/18/2001 6:09:34 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
They may try to claim some things from the Christian religion, but they are not us. They must destroy anyone who is not like them. Their religion calls for the death of those who are not like them.
41 posted on 11/18/2001 6:12:10 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Terriergal
I would make one quibble. The grace is not "earned" by faith; nothing we can do makes us deserving of salvation. We believe, and we are saved, but we are not saved because of the act of believing. We are saved solely through God's grace and His love for us.

It's kind of a fine point, but I think it's important. The act of believing doesn't save us any more than helping a little old lady across the street does. Through our faith in His Only Son, we ask God for his mercy, and because He is a loving God, he grants us His grace. The works we do are important, however, because they demonstrate to our brothers and sisters our devotion to God.

I hope I got that right; I'm not much of a theologian, but I try the best I can. :-)

42 posted on 11/18/2001 6:17:06 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
No, I didn't bother reading it all, because I really don't care why they want to kill us.

For those who do care, though, perhaps we can torture the answer out of the Afghani Moos just before they expire.

43 posted on 11/18/2001 6:18:54 PM PST by Hank Rearden
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
why do they want to kill us if they came from us

first, they did not come from us (christianity). christianity is the fullfilment of the prophecy as taught in the old testament. islam split from judaism long before that.

second, read the part that on the bible comparison

it [the bible] is to be treated with respect, however any statements which clearly oppose those of the qur'an are to be rejected as the work of mankind

it is clear that the moslems do not believe in the bible and all it teaches.
44 posted on 11/18/2001 6:24:47 PM PST by mlocher
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To: RightWhale
Yeah, it's a little... goofy.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" 2 Cor 3:17

"And the Word was God." John 1:1

Ps 45:6,7 (messianic passage) "Your throne, O God, will last forever...
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions."

(This kind of addressing the coming messiah as God and then referring to God as the messiah's God is something to express their being one and the same, and yet separate. Much as the word for God "elohim" is plural yet to call God "gods" is blasphemous. That is why they said Christ committed blasphemy, because all through the Old Testament it is taught that the Son of Man, the Messiah, would be himself God.)

John 8:57-59 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

45 posted on 11/18/2001 6:27:09 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs

46 posted on 11/19/2001 12:22:41 AM PST by Cindy
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To: He Rides A White Horse
I know al about the story of Judas. What no one can explain to me is that his story invalidates the myth of salvation in a moment where one can never lose salvation.

I believe that if we don't accept Jesus death and resurection, get baptised, and live according his his will (which includes witnessing, being a strong member of a church, etc. [which I call works]) then we cannot go to Heaven. The exception to this in the Bible was the thief on the croos next to Jesus who through faith alone entered into paradise (not Heaven yet).

I can't point to a specific verse that spells this out, but the Bible in whole points this direction. Yes we are saved by faith through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. But not all are saved.

Please do not get me wrong, I am not a biblical expert. In fact I am still learning a great deal about my saviour and his word. I am seeking the truth of the Lord.

47 posted on 11/19/2001 3:58:12 AM PST by wwjdn
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To: wwjdn
In fact I am still learning a great deal about my saviour and his word.

Me too. Probably until the day I die.

48 posted on 11/19/2001 12:42:43 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: He Rides A White Horse
God willing. I learn more each day.

I really enjoy your posts. Thanks.

49 posted on 11/19/2001 2:44:16 PM PST by wwjdn
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To: wwjdn
Ping me anytime.
50 posted on 11/19/2001 2:53:49 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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