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Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) ^ | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins

Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam

SUNDAY DECEMBER 02 2001

Genetic survey reveals hidden Celts of England

JOHN ELLIOTT AND TOM ROBBINS

THE Celts of Scotland and Wales are not as unique as some of them like to think. New research has revealed that the majority of Britons living in the south of England share the same DNA as their Celtic counterparts.

The findings, based on the DNA analysis of more than 2,000 people, poses the strongest challenge yet to the conventional historical view that the ancient Britons were forced out of most of England by hordes of Anglo-Saxon invaders.

It suggests that far from being purged and forced to retreat into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland when the AngloSaxons invaded in the 5th century, many ancient Britons remained in England.

The study, conducted by geneticists at University College London, found that as many as three-quarters of the men tested in some parts of the south of England have the same Y-chromosome as the ancient Britons or Celts, rather than that of the Anglo-Saxons.

Overall, the scientists found that between 50% and 75% of those tested in parts of southern England were directly descended from Celts, implying that they had survived the Anglo-Saxon invasion. In Scotland the proportion of those with Celtic ancestry was found to be little different from the population of southern England.

"The evidence is quite strong that there is a substantial indigenous component remaining in England," said Professor David Goldstein, who led the study. "Genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past. We can now trace the movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archeology alone."

The study, commissioned by BBC2 for its current Blood of the Vikings series, was designed to assess the impact of Norwegian and Danish Vikings, as well as Anglo-Saxons, on the British population.

Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2,000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark and Schleswig- Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the AngloSaxons. Those taking part had to have lived in the area for at least two generations.

Scientists then examined the Y-chromosome, which is passed unchanged down the male line of a family and is thus not altered by intermarriage.

The analysis showed that 60% of the men tested on Orkney were descended from Norwegian Vikings, as well as 30% of those in the Hebrides. While the Viking influence in these areas has been well known, it had been suggested that they were simply a ruling elite who did little interbreeding with the local population.

On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indigenous population, suggesting that the Anglo-Saxons made more of an impact on the Celts in northern England.

Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population.

In recent years the fate of the Celts in England has become hotly debated. Many historians have come to doubt the traditional story about the flight of the Celts from southern England, which was based largely on the account of Gildas, the 6th-century historian.

"There are various schools of thought ranging from near genocide (of the Celts) to almost total survival," said Patrick Sims-Williams, professor of Celtic studies at the University of Wales. "There could have been mass flight as well — it’s partly a matter of scholarly fashion, coming and going from generation to generation."

The genetic data will be eagerly received by scholars. Many of the place names in southern England have Celtic origins. Among them are Leatherhead, in Surrey, which meant "the grey ford".

"If you believe Gildas, the Anglo-Saxons would have been chasing the ancient Britons, catching up with one who wasn’t fast enough and saying, ‘Look here, before I cut off your head, just tell me the name of this place’," said Dr Margaret Gelling, a leading authority on place names.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anglosaxons; archaeology; caledonia; celts; cornwall; ggg; gingergene; godsgravesglyphs; hebrides; helixmakemineadouble; history; norway; orkney; pictish; picts; scotland; scotlandyet; uk; unitedkingdom; vikings; wales; welsh
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To: LN2Campy
"I once read a reference to an expedition in the late 1600s wherein a welshman was able to communicate with a group of Noth American Indians in his native speech. I've never been able to find out more about it, but I found that to be fascinating."

There is a plaque here at the mouth of Mobile Bay commerating the visit of a Welsh prince in 1170AD.( I cannot remember his name presently) He is reported to have migrated inland up the water ways of Alabama into Tennessee (There is some supporting ruins there) and on into the heartland, this is supposedly the source of the Welsh language speakers that you cite. (I'll think of the name of the Welsh prince today.)

21 posted on 12/06/2001 7:56:07 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
(found it,http://www.madoc1170.com/home.htm)

Welcome and Croeso to the Website.

My name is Howard Kimberley and I was born in Maesteg, Glamorgan, South Wales, in 1944. I am a former Engineer who spent many years in Technical Research and Development, and Project Management. Since 1987, I have worked as a Business Consultant assisting the formation and development of small businesses. I have a science degree with certificates in accounting and marketing as well as a qualification in business planning. I am not a professional or even a trained historian, but a down-to-earth engineer and business advisor, so my approach to historical research may be somewhat radical.

Howard Kimberley

The story of MADOC, a Welsh prince, who is reputed to have discovered America in 1170, over 300 years before Columbus, has fascinated me for many years.

It is said that he sailed across the Atlantic Ocean from Wales, a small country on the western side of the British mainland, which together with Ireland, Scotland and England, make up the British Isles.
Many believe that he and his followers initially settled in the Georgia/Tennessee/ Kentucky area, eventually moving to the Upper Missouri, where they were assimilated into a tribe of the Mandans. New evidence is also emerging about a small band of MADOC's followers who remained in the Ohio area and are called 'White Madoc'.

Numerous people, on both sides of the Atlantic, have researched the story over the years. Such a subject is bound to have its sceptics, and what I have set out to achieve with this site is to establish the truth about Prince MADOC, by presenting both sides of the argument. The more I study the subject and contemplate the implications, the stronger the fascination becomes, so much so, in fact, that I am now in the process of setting up a trust which will undertake further research, and a company which will support and promote the trust.

So read on, consider the arguments, have your say, and join me in the fascinating quest for the truth about MADOC, a prince who lived over 800 years ago, and the link between a tiny kingdom in Wales, and the mighty continent of North America.

To quote that famous Welsh Politician, Aneurin Bevan,
"This Is My Truth - Tell Me Yours"

22 posted on 12/06/2001 8:24:47 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Thanks for the link!
23 posted on 12/06/2001 8:30:21 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: RightWhale; sawsalimb; JudyB1938; rightofrush
Over here.
24 posted on 12/06/2001 8:57:32 AM PST by blam
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To: LN2Campy
if it's related to any languages elsewhere in the world

I don't know, but I heard that Finnish and possibly Hungarian [Magyar] are related to Basque.

25 posted on 12/06/2001 9:06:29 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: blam
This is personally interesting since we have stories in the family dating back to AD 900 when they were in southwest England in the Southampton region. That's when they arrived, by boat. Don't know where they arrived from, but some of the family thinks Belgium.
26 posted on 12/06/2001 9:12:16 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: LN2Campy
Allegations have been fairly widely published that the Basque language is related to American Indian tongues, especially the Shoshone and their close sub-tribes in Wyoming and Idaho. If so, Basques may represent a very early transatlantic migration-in-reverse.
27 posted on 12/06/2001 10:12:20 AM PST by crystalk
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To: WilliamWallace1999
NO it wouldn't. For the Y chromosome to have survived, it's the MEN of the Celts that had to keep breeding. You couldn't take their wives without your invading Y chromosome showing up. Perhaps as the Anglo-Saxons invaded they had their wives impregnated by the Celtic men before they cut their heads off? (sarcasm /off)

I stand corrected.

(note to self: coffee first, then post...)

28 posted on 12/06/2001 12:41:27 PM PST by Interesting Times
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To: LN2Campy
RE: the relationship of the Celts, Basques etc.

You might be interested in the following site.

http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/JandacekArkoBasques.html

You may also find this site interesting as well. For a little bit of a challenge to "mainstream" history.

http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/

Also

http://www.dangel.net/JimsHomePageFolder/Veneti.html

It makes for interesting reading..

29 posted on 12/06/2001 1:20:48 PM PST by Cacique
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To: RightWhale
"This is personally interesting since we have stories in the family dating back to AD 900 when they were in southwest England in the Southampton region. That's when they arrived, by boat. Don't know where they arrived from, but some of the family thinks Belgium."

Are you kidding? You can trace your family back that far?

30 posted on 12/06/2001 1:51:10 PM PST by blam
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To: crystalk
"Allegations have been fairly widely published that the Basque language is related to American Indian tongues, especially the Shoshone and their close sub-tribes in Wyoming and Idaho. If so, Basques may represent a very early transatlantic migration-in-reverse"

Interesting idea. What leads you to suspect a 'migration-in-reverse'? (I have some ideas along that line too but, little evidence)

31 posted on 12/06/2001 1:56:43 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Julius Caesar's diaries recount that the "Gauls" had ships that were driven entirely by sails, without oars. The ships decks stood so high out of the water, that the Roman archers in the triremes couldn't hit the Gaulish sailors with their arrows.

The Romans were forced to throw grappling hooks into the Gauls ships' rigging to pull themselves alongside and storm the ships with seige ladders as if storming a walled fortification. Then the Romans slaughtered the Gauls and sunk their ships, ending whatever commerce or travleing they were engaged in.

Caesar made no comment about whether the Gauls carried national ID cards.

32 posted on 12/06/2001 2:00:40 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: SurferDoc; white rose; Le-Roy; okie01; Marie; vannrox; Ditter; Ernest_at_the_Beach...
FYI.
33 posted on 12/06/2001 2:01:47 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population.

Being of mostly Celtic heritage probably explains my good looks. ;)

34 posted on 12/06/2001 2:08:48 PM PST by BluH2o
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To: blam
The Basque language (and to a large degree their DNA) is unlike all other Indo-European languages.

Isn't the French Basque dialect very similar to the Welsh dialect? Read this sometime ago ...

35 posted on 12/06/2001 2:15:54 PM PST by BluH2o
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To: blam
trace your family back that far?

Sure, some of it. The branch that carried the current family name, anyway, but not all the lines that married in and changed their name. It's filled in a lot better after 1650.

36 posted on 12/06/2001 2:15:59 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: crystalk
direct descendant

I don't understand the difference between a direct descendent versus an indirect descendent.

37 posted on 12/06/2001 2:17:48 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: blam
I cannot remember his name presently)

Madoc

38 posted on 12/06/2001 2:25:23 PM PST by arthurus
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To: BluH2o
Isn't the French Basque dialect very similar

No.

39 posted on 12/06/2001 2:28:08 PM PST by arthurus
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To: blam

AYE what would you do without your FREEEEEEDOOOOOMMMMMMMM?

40 posted on 12/06/2001 2:28:47 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK
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