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Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) ^ | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins

Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam

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So, I may not be a WASP after all.
1 posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:35 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Perhaps the Britons will start demanding reparations too?
2 posted on 12/06/2001 6:42:01 AM PST by KellyAdmirer
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To: blam
(From The BBC, 12-03-2001)

Monday, 3 December, 2001, 18:15 GMT

Viking blood still flowing

Many Vikings settled in Britain 1,200 years ago

Blood tests taken over the past year may help show part of Cumbria in northwest England was a Viking stronghold 1,200 years ago.
Geneticists discovered the area around Penrith has clear evidence of Norwegian influence.

However, the study also confirms that Vikings settled in large numbers in the Shetland and Orkneys and the far north of the Scottish mainland.

The research is part of a ground-breaking project commissioned by the BBC to uncover the UK's Viking roots.

Vikings revealed

In the first large-scale genetics survey of its kind, experts from University College, London, studied the DNA of 2,000 people.

The full results of the project will be revealed in the final programme of the series, Blood of the Vikings, on Tuesday at 2100 GMT.

The study shows the genetic pattern of the Vikings remains in some parts of the UK population.

The research confirms the Norwegian Vikings did not just raid and retreat to Scandinavia, but actually settled in Britain.

Genetic markers

Of all the English test sites, only Penrith in Cumbria had clear evidence of Norwegian influence.

Surprisingly, mainland Scotland had a similar Celtic input as the population of southern England, showing that not only were the English never "homogenous Anglo-Saxons", but neither were the Scots predominantly Celtic.

Geneticist Professor David Goldstein, from the University College London (UCL), led the study. He said: "Modern genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past.

"We can now trace past movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archaeology alone.

Men only

"I'm delighted that we have been able to distinguish clear markers to indicate the genetic inheritance from the Norwegian Vikings."

Scientists at UCL took mouth swabs from 2,000 people from 25 different locations across Britain.

They only tested men because information they were interested in was contained on the Y chromosome - which women do not have.

The genetic material in the samples was compared with DNA taken from people in Scandinavia where some locals are thought to be most similar to the Vikings.

3 posted on 12/06/2001 6:42:15 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
This would be adequately explained if the invaders killed the men and ravished the women...
4 posted on 12/06/2001 6:42:36 AM PST by Interesting Times
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To: blam
This is not that surprising. Although a great number of Germanics migrated to Britain, enough to cause its name to change, the place was pretty thickly settled and it is not practical to think that every Celt ran away to Scotland and Wales (which, even to this day, have much lower population densities than England).

I'd be interested to see if the DNA info indicates any correlation between England and Italy. After all, my Roman ancestors were there for a good 400 years, and we Mediterraneans ALWAYS go for those succulent pale redhead types...

5 posted on 12/06/2001 6:44:06 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: blam
It is hardly surprising that this is the case. But it may not change the contention that the Anglo-Saxons chased Celts off of mainland England and up and over to Wales, Scotland and Ireland. They've had almost 1,500 of co-existence since then, and as far as I can tell, inter-marry quite frequently. Regardless of the DNA, couldn't that account for these findings and not a rewrite of a well established history?

Taken in another light. The United States govt. chased Indians the hell out of every habitable plot of land in the Union. This is a fact. But who would want to bet that if a similar test were performed in the United States, that most individuals would show a Sioux, Iriqouis, or any other Indian Nation, trace in their DNA? Would that then mean that we really didn't round most Indians up, via coercian, treaty and force into lifeless "reservations"? No.

6 posted on 12/06/2001 6:45:05 AM PST by Lumberjack
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To: blam
The genetic material in the samples was compared with DNA taken from people in Scandinavia where some locals are thought to be most similar to the Vikings.

Well, DUHHH, what did they think, they should go to Nigeria for viking DNA???

7 posted on 12/06/2001 6:46:21 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: Lumberjack
The report also talks about Southern England. Does that mean predominantly SW England, or does that include SE England as well? The SW corner of England, Cornwall and Devon, were known Celtic enclaves. The English had to work had to stamp out their Celtic tongue hundreds of years ago.
8 posted on 12/06/2001 6:52:14 AM PST by twigs
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To: LN2Campy
In another article, I've read that the Basque of Spain/France are most closely related to the Scots and Irish. The Basque language (and to a large degree their DNA) is unlike all other Indo-European languages. (They appear to be a group that was isolated in ancient times)
9 posted on 12/06/2001 6:58:47 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Interesting stuff. I'll have to read it to hubby later. He may be more Celtic than he originally thought.
10 posted on 12/06/2001 7:11:51 AM PST by LibertarianLiz
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To: blam
They might be genetically, but the stickler with the Basques, as you point out, is that their language is an inexplicable "oddity" in that it is wholly unrelated to any of the European linguistic groups. I've never been able to find out if it's related to any languages elsewhere in the world. If it were Semitic in origin, then I would guess they could be an isolated remnant of the Phoenicians (Carthaginians), who were settled in a lot of little enclaves all around the Mediterranean.
11 posted on 12/06/2001 7:12:39 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: blam
BTTT
12 posted on 12/06/2001 7:14:53 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Interesting Times
This would be adequately explained if the invaders killed the men and ravished the women...

NO it wouldn't. For the Y chromosome to have survived, it's the MEN of the Celts that had to keep breeding. You couldn't take their wives without your invading Y chromosome showing up. Perhaps as the Anglo-Saxons invaded they had their wives impregnated by the Celtic men before they cut their heads off? (sarcasm /off)

13 posted on 12/06/2001 7:15:16 AM PST by WilliamWallace1999
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To: Lumberjack
But who would want to bet that if a similar test were performed in the United States, that most individuals would show a Sioux, Iriqouis, or any other Indian Nation, trace in their DNA?

Most likely Cherokee. I am sure that most people in East Tennessee have some Cherokee blood in them. Elvis Presly himself was part Cherokee.

14 posted on 12/06/2001 7:19:03 AM PST by PJ-Comix
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To: PJ-Comix
It is obvious if you just take the population of Roman Britain, and the maximum number (over 90% men) of Germanic invaders who could have ever come in the available boats, and you will see that the population of England right up until the present Muslim invasion, was still mostly Celtic...say 80% on the Y chromosome and nearly 99 on the mitochondria.

A teacher in Cheddar was found to be a direct descendant (female line only) of the mother of a 9000-years-old boy whose skeleton was found just a few miles away...

Still, there are many locales and cities, as you say especially in the northeast, and east London, etc. where Anglo-Saxon and/or Viking genes have equal or greater prevalence...East Anglia, Boston, Grantham...

15 posted on 12/06/2001 7:31:41 AM PST by crystalk
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To: LN2Campy
"If it were Semitic in origin, then I would guess they could be an isolated remnant of the Phoenicians (Carthaginians), who were settled in a lot of little enclaves all around the Mediterranean."

I've actually seen a comparison to an American Indian language to the Basque language. (forgot which tribe/language) A number of unexplainable similarities were found. Now, Plutarch, examining the ruins of Carthage cites charts/graphs/etc. he found that were accounts of trade with nations across the Atlantic Ocean.

16 posted on 12/06/2001 7:33:22 AM PST by blam
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The "invading" Anglo-Saxons, although often clashing with the Celts, generally migrated to Britain WITH their families. They were chiefly bent on settlement, not plunder, unlike the vikings a few hundred years later.
17 posted on 12/06/2001 7:36:35 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: blam
My great-grandfather came from Dorset County in the south of England. I've always wondered why my heart skips a beat at the sound of the pipes.:)
18 posted on 12/06/2001 7:44:15 AM PST by MozartLover
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To: crystalk
(found it)

DNA links teacher to 9,000-year-old skeleton

Submitted by: CNN
March 7, 1997
Web posted at: 11:20 p.m. EST

LONDON (AP) -- Using DNA from a tooth, scientist have established a blood tie between a 9,000-year-old skeleton known as "Cheddar Man" and an English schoolteacher who lives just a half mile from the cave where the bones were found.

Oxford University scientists announced Friday that Adrian Targett, 42, a history teacher in the town of Cheddar in southwest England, shares a common ancestor with Cheddar Man.

It is the longest human lineage ever traced, the team of scientists from the university's Institute of Molecular Medicine said.

A very long-lost relative

"They would have shared a common ancestor about 10,000 years ago so they are related -- just not very closely," said Dr. Bryan Sykes, leader of the research team.

Targett was startled by the news.

"I am overwhelmed, a bit surprised," said Targett, whose ancestry was revealed during the filming of a documentary for the TV station HTV, which commissioned the study.

"I was just about to say I hope it's not me."

Targett suggested that if more people were tested, researchers would find other relatives of Cheddar Man.

Larry Barham, a Texas-born archaeologist at Bristol University, said the finding "adds to the evidence that Britons came from a race of hunter-gatherers who later turned to farming because they found it was to their advantage." Archaeologists believe Cheddar Man, who lived during the Stone Age, was a hunter-gatherer.

Opponents of this theory argue that Britons are descendants of Middle Eastern farmers.

Mitochondrial DNA shows a link

To get the DNA, scientists extracted cells from a molar tooth of Cheddar Man.

They compared the mitochondrial DNA -- which is inherited unchanged on the maternal line -- with samples of mitochondrial DNA from the cheek cells of 15 pupils at the Kings of Wessex school, where Targett works, and five adults from old Cheddar families.

Professor Chris Stringer, a researcher at London's Natural History Museum, said one problem with the research "is that we don't know that Cheddar Man had any children. This is mitochondrial DNA that is only inherited through the maternal link, so this would come from Cheddar Man's mother or his sister."

HTV said the discovery came when a television director was researching a series on archaeology. In search of information on whether cannibalism was practiced by Stone Age man, scientists took a sample of cells from the jaw of Cheddar Man, HTV said.

That led them to wonder if there could be modern-day relatives of the ancient man, who was discovered in 1903.

The network of underground caves at Cheddar, 130 miles west of London, is believed to have been home to a community of Stone Age people. Many artifacts have been found there.

19 posted on 12/06/2001 7:44:46 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
The Basques were excellent seamen and fished the Georges Bank for cod hundreds of years prior to Columbus. It may well be that a number of them settled in Northeastern North America which would explain some linguistic links among a tribe that eventually mixed with/absorbed them.

I once read a reference to an expedition in the late 1600s wherein a welshman was able to communicate with a group of Noth American Indians in his native speech. I've never been able to find out more about it, but I found that to be fascinating.

It's already been conclusively proved that the Norse were in N.A. 500 years before Columbus. We will probably eventually learn that there was a great deal more contact between the "Old" and "New" Worlds than we ever imagined.

20 posted on 12/06/2001 7:45:48 AM PST by LN2Campy
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