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Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) ^ | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins

Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam

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So, I may not be a WASP after all.
1 posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:35 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Perhaps the Britons will start demanding reparations too?
2 posted on 12/06/2001 6:42:01 AM PST by KellyAdmirer
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To: blam
(From The BBC, 12-03-2001)

Monday, 3 December, 2001, 18:15 GMT

Viking blood still flowing

Many Vikings settled in Britain 1,200 years ago

Blood tests taken over the past year may help show part of Cumbria in northwest England was a Viking stronghold 1,200 years ago.
Geneticists discovered the area around Penrith has clear evidence of Norwegian influence.

However, the study also confirms that Vikings settled in large numbers in the Shetland and Orkneys and the far north of the Scottish mainland.

The research is part of a ground-breaking project commissioned by the BBC to uncover the UK's Viking roots.

Vikings revealed

In the first large-scale genetics survey of its kind, experts from University College, London, studied the DNA of 2,000 people.

The full results of the project will be revealed in the final programme of the series, Blood of the Vikings, on Tuesday at 2100 GMT.

The study shows the genetic pattern of the Vikings remains in some parts of the UK population.

The research confirms the Norwegian Vikings did not just raid and retreat to Scandinavia, but actually settled in Britain.

Genetic markers

Of all the English test sites, only Penrith in Cumbria had clear evidence of Norwegian influence.

Surprisingly, mainland Scotland had a similar Celtic input as the population of southern England, showing that not only were the English never "homogenous Anglo-Saxons", but neither were the Scots predominantly Celtic.

Geneticist Professor David Goldstein, from the University College London (UCL), led the study. He said: "Modern genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past.

"We can now trace past movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archaeology alone.

Men only

"I'm delighted that we have been able to distinguish clear markers to indicate the genetic inheritance from the Norwegian Vikings."

Scientists at UCL took mouth swabs from 2,000 people from 25 different locations across Britain.

They only tested men because information they were interested in was contained on the Y chromosome - which women do not have.

The genetic material in the samples was compared with DNA taken from people in Scandinavia where some locals are thought to be most similar to the Vikings.

3 posted on 12/06/2001 6:42:15 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
This would be adequately explained if the invaders killed the men and ravished the women...
4 posted on 12/06/2001 6:42:36 AM PST by Interesting Times
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To: blam
This is not that surprising. Although a great number of Germanics migrated to Britain, enough to cause its name to change, the place was pretty thickly settled and it is not practical to think that every Celt ran away to Scotland and Wales (which, even to this day, have much lower population densities than England).

I'd be interested to see if the DNA info indicates any correlation between England and Italy. After all, my Roman ancestors were there for a good 400 years, and we Mediterraneans ALWAYS go for those succulent pale redhead types...

5 posted on 12/06/2001 6:44:06 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: blam
It is hardly surprising that this is the case. But it may not change the contention that the Anglo-Saxons chased Celts off of mainland England and up and over to Wales, Scotland and Ireland. They've had almost 1,500 of co-existence since then, and as far as I can tell, inter-marry quite frequently. Regardless of the DNA, couldn't that account for these findings and not a rewrite of a well established history?

Taken in another light. The United States govt. chased Indians the hell out of every habitable plot of land in the Union. This is a fact. But who would want to bet that if a similar test were performed in the United States, that most individuals would show a Sioux, Iriqouis, or any other Indian Nation, trace in their DNA? Would that then mean that we really didn't round most Indians up, via coercian, treaty and force into lifeless "reservations"? No.

6 posted on 12/06/2001 6:45:05 AM PST by Lumberjack
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To: blam
The genetic material in the samples was compared with DNA taken from people in Scandinavia where some locals are thought to be most similar to the Vikings.

Well, DUHHH, what did they think, they should go to Nigeria for viking DNA???

7 posted on 12/06/2001 6:46:21 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: Lumberjack
The report also talks about Southern England. Does that mean predominantly SW England, or does that include SE England as well? The SW corner of England, Cornwall and Devon, were known Celtic enclaves. The English had to work had to stamp out their Celtic tongue hundreds of years ago.
8 posted on 12/06/2001 6:52:14 AM PST by twigs
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To: LN2Campy
In another article, I've read that the Basque of Spain/France are most closely related to the Scots and Irish. The Basque language (and to a large degree their DNA) is unlike all other Indo-European languages. (They appear to be a group that was isolated in ancient times)
9 posted on 12/06/2001 6:58:47 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Interesting stuff. I'll have to read it to hubby later. He may be more Celtic than he originally thought.
10 posted on 12/06/2001 7:11:51 AM PST by LibertarianLiz
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To: blam
They might be genetically, but the stickler with the Basques, as you point out, is that their language is an inexplicable "oddity" in that it is wholly unrelated to any of the European linguistic groups. I've never been able to find out if it's related to any languages elsewhere in the world. If it were Semitic in origin, then I would guess they could be an isolated remnant of the Phoenicians (Carthaginians), who were settled in a lot of little enclaves all around the Mediterranean.
11 posted on 12/06/2001 7:12:39 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: blam
BTTT
12 posted on 12/06/2001 7:14:53 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Interesting Times
This would be adequately explained if the invaders killed the men and ravished the women...

NO it wouldn't. For the Y chromosome to have survived, it's the MEN of the Celts that had to keep breeding. You couldn't take their wives without your invading Y chromosome showing up. Perhaps as the Anglo-Saxons invaded they had their wives impregnated by the Celtic men before they cut their heads off? (sarcasm /off)

13 posted on 12/06/2001 7:15:16 AM PST by WilliamWallace1999
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To: Lumberjack
But who would want to bet that if a similar test were performed in the United States, that most individuals would show a Sioux, Iriqouis, or any other Indian Nation, trace in their DNA?

Most likely Cherokee. I am sure that most people in East Tennessee have some Cherokee blood in them. Elvis Presly himself was part Cherokee.

14 posted on 12/06/2001 7:19:03 AM PST by PJ-Comix
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To: PJ-Comix
It is obvious if you just take the population of Roman Britain, and the maximum number (over 90% men) of Germanic invaders who could have ever come in the available boats, and you will see that the population of England right up until the present Muslim invasion, was still mostly Celtic...say 80% on the Y chromosome and nearly 99 on the mitochondria.

A teacher in Cheddar was found to be a direct descendant (female line only) of the mother of a 9000-years-old boy whose skeleton was found just a few miles away...

Still, there are many locales and cities, as you say especially in the northeast, and east London, etc. where Anglo-Saxon and/or Viking genes have equal or greater prevalence...East Anglia, Boston, Grantham...

15 posted on 12/06/2001 7:31:41 AM PST by crystalk
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To: LN2Campy
"If it were Semitic in origin, then I would guess they could be an isolated remnant of the Phoenicians (Carthaginians), who were settled in a lot of little enclaves all around the Mediterranean."

I've actually seen a comparison to an American Indian language to the Basque language. (forgot which tribe/language) A number of unexplainable similarities were found. Now, Plutarch, examining the ruins of Carthage cites charts/graphs/etc. he found that were accounts of trade with nations across the Atlantic Ocean.

16 posted on 12/06/2001 7:33:22 AM PST by blam
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The "invading" Anglo-Saxons, although often clashing with the Celts, generally migrated to Britain WITH their families. They were chiefly bent on settlement, not plunder, unlike the vikings a few hundred years later.
17 posted on 12/06/2001 7:36:35 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: blam
My great-grandfather came from Dorset County in the south of England. I've always wondered why my heart skips a beat at the sound of the pipes.:)
18 posted on 12/06/2001 7:44:15 AM PST by MozartLover
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To: crystalk
(found it)

DNA links teacher to 9,000-year-old skeleton

Submitted by: CNN
March 7, 1997
Web posted at: 11:20 p.m. EST

LONDON (AP) -- Using DNA from a tooth, scientist have established a blood tie between a 9,000-year-old skeleton known as "Cheddar Man" and an English schoolteacher who lives just a half mile from the cave where the bones were found.

Oxford University scientists announced Friday that Adrian Targett, 42, a history teacher in the town of Cheddar in southwest England, shares a common ancestor with Cheddar Man.

It is the longest human lineage ever traced, the team of scientists from the university's Institute of Molecular Medicine said.

A very long-lost relative

"They would have shared a common ancestor about 10,000 years ago so they are related -- just not very closely," said Dr. Bryan Sykes, leader of the research team.

Targett was startled by the news.

"I am overwhelmed, a bit surprised," said Targett, whose ancestry was revealed during the filming of a documentary for the TV station HTV, which commissioned the study.

"I was just about to say I hope it's not me."

Targett suggested that if more people were tested, researchers would find other relatives of Cheddar Man.

Larry Barham, a Texas-born archaeologist at Bristol University, said the finding "adds to the evidence that Britons came from a race of hunter-gatherers who later turned to farming because they found it was to their advantage." Archaeologists believe Cheddar Man, who lived during the Stone Age, was a hunter-gatherer.

Opponents of this theory argue that Britons are descendants of Middle Eastern farmers.

Mitochondrial DNA shows a link

To get the DNA, scientists extracted cells from a molar tooth of Cheddar Man.

They compared the mitochondrial DNA -- which is inherited unchanged on the maternal line -- with samples of mitochondrial DNA from the cheek cells of 15 pupils at the Kings of Wessex school, where Targett works, and five adults from old Cheddar families.

Professor Chris Stringer, a researcher at London's Natural History Museum, said one problem with the research "is that we don't know that Cheddar Man had any children. This is mitochondrial DNA that is only inherited through the maternal link, so this would come from Cheddar Man's mother or his sister."

HTV said the discovery came when a television director was researching a series on archaeology. In search of information on whether cannibalism was practiced by Stone Age man, scientists took a sample of cells from the jaw of Cheddar Man, HTV said.

That led them to wonder if there could be modern-day relatives of the ancient man, who was discovered in 1903.

The network of underground caves at Cheddar, 130 miles west of London, is believed to have been home to a community of Stone Age people. Many artifacts have been found there.

19 posted on 12/06/2001 7:44:46 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
The Basques were excellent seamen and fished the Georges Bank for cod hundreds of years prior to Columbus. It may well be that a number of them settled in Northeastern North America which would explain some linguistic links among a tribe that eventually mixed with/absorbed them.

I once read a reference to an expedition in the late 1600s wherein a welshman was able to communicate with a group of Noth American Indians in his native speech. I've never been able to find out more about it, but I found that to be fascinating.

It's already been conclusively proved that the Norse were in N.A. 500 years before Columbus. We will probably eventually learn that there was a great deal more contact between the "Old" and "New" Worlds than we ever imagined.

20 posted on 12/06/2001 7:45:48 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: LN2Campy
"I once read a reference to an expedition in the late 1600s wherein a welshman was able to communicate with a group of Noth American Indians in his native speech. I've never been able to find out more about it, but I found that to be fascinating."

There is a plaque here at the mouth of Mobile Bay commerating the visit of a Welsh prince in 1170AD.( I cannot remember his name presently) He is reported to have migrated inland up the water ways of Alabama into Tennessee (There is some supporting ruins there) and on into the heartland, this is supposedly the source of the Welsh language speakers that you cite. (I'll think of the name of the Welsh prince today.)

21 posted on 12/06/2001 7:56:07 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
(found it,http://www.madoc1170.com/home.htm)

Welcome and Croeso to the Website.

My name is Howard Kimberley and I was born in Maesteg, Glamorgan, South Wales, in 1944. I am a former Engineer who spent many years in Technical Research and Development, and Project Management. Since 1987, I have worked as a Business Consultant assisting the formation and development of small businesses. I have a science degree with certificates in accounting and marketing as well as a qualification in business planning. I am not a professional or even a trained historian, but a down-to-earth engineer and business advisor, so my approach to historical research may be somewhat radical.

Howard Kimberley

The story of MADOC, a Welsh prince, who is reputed to have discovered America in 1170, over 300 years before Columbus, has fascinated me for many years.

It is said that he sailed across the Atlantic Ocean from Wales, a small country on the western side of the British mainland, which together with Ireland, Scotland and England, make up the British Isles.
Many believe that he and his followers initially settled in the Georgia/Tennessee/ Kentucky area, eventually moving to the Upper Missouri, where they were assimilated into a tribe of the Mandans. New evidence is also emerging about a small band of MADOC's followers who remained in the Ohio area and are called 'White Madoc'.

Numerous people, on both sides of the Atlantic, have researched the story over the years. Such a subject is bound to have its sceptics, and what I have set out to achieve with this site is to establish the truth about Prince MADOC, by presenting both sides of the argument. The more I study the subject and contemplate the implications, the stronger the fascination becomes, so much so, in fact, that I am now in the process of setting up a trust which will undertake further research, and a company which will support and promote the trust.

So read on, consider the arguments, have your say, and join me in the fascinating quest for the truth about MADOC, a prince who lived over 800 years ago, and the link between a tiny kingdom in Wales, and the mighty continent of North America.

To quote that famous Welsh Politician, Aneurin Bevan,
"This Is My Truth - Tell Me Yours"

22 posted on 12/06/2001 8:24:47 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Thanks for the link!
23 posted on 12/06/2001 8:30:21 AM PST by LN2Campy
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To: RightWhale; sawsalimb; JudyB1938; rightofrush
Over here.
24 posted on 12/06/2001 8:57:32 AM PST by blam
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To: LN2Campy
if it's related to any languages elsewhere in the world

I don't know, but I heard that Finnish and possibly Hungarian [Magyar] are related to Basque.

25 posted on 12/06/2001 9:06:29 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: blam
This is personally interesting since we have stories in the family dating back to AD 900 when they were in southwest England in the Southampton region. That's when they arrived, by boat. Don't know where they arrived from, but some of the family thinks Belgium.
26 posted on 12/06/2001 9:12:16 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: LN2Campy
Allegations have been fairly widely published that the Basque language is related to American Indian tongues, especially the Shoshone and their close sub-tribes in Wyoming and Idaho. If so, Basques may represent a very early transatlantic migration-in-reverse.
27 posted on 12/06/2001 10:12:20 AM PST by crystalk
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To: WilliamWallace1999
NO it wouldn't. For the Y chromosome to have survived, it's the MEN of the Celts that had to keep breeding. You couldn't take their wives without your invading Y chromosome showing up. Perhaps as the Anglo-Saxons invaded they had their wives impregnated by the Celtic men before they cut their heads off? (sarcasm /off)

I stand corrected.

(note to self: coffee first, then post...)

28 posted on 12/06/2001 12:41:27 PM PST by Interesting Times
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To: LN2Campy
RE: the relationship of the Celts, Basques etc.

You might be interested in the following site.

http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/JandacekArkoBasques.html

You may also find this site interesting as well. For a little bit of a challenge to "mainstream" history.

http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/

Also

http://www.dangel.net/JimsHomePageFolder/Veneti.html

It makes for interesting reading..

29 posted on 12/06/2001 1:20:48 PM PST by Cacique
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To: RightWhale
"This is personally interesting since we have stories in the family dating back to AD 900 when they were in southwest England in the Southampton region. That's when they arrived, by boat. Don't know where they arrived from, but some of the family thinks Belgium."

Are you kidding? You can trace your family back that far?

30 posted on 12/06/2001 1:51:10 PM PST by blam
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To: crystalk
"Allegations have been fairly widely published that the Basque language is related to American Indian tongues, especially the Shoshone and their close sub-tribes in Wyoming and Idaho. If so, Basques may represent a very early transatlantic migration-in-reverse"

Interesting idea. What leads you to suspect a 'migration-in-reverse'? (I have some ideas along that line too but, little evidence)

31 posted on 12/06/2001 1:56:43 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Julius Caesar's diaries recount that the "Gauls" had ships that were driven entirely by sails, without oars. The ships decks stood so high out of the water, that the Roman archers in the triremes couldn't hit the Gaulish sailors with their arrows.

The Romans were forced to throw grappling hooks into the Gauls ships' rigging to pull themselves alongside and storm the ships with seige ladders as if storming a walled fortification. Then the Romans slaughtered the Gauls and sunk their ships, ending whatever commerce or travleing they were engaged in.

Caesar made no comment about whether the Gauls carried national ID cards.

32 posted on 12/06/2001 2:00:40 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: SurferDoc; white rose; Le-Roy; okie01; Marie; vannrox; Ditter; Ernest_at_the_Beach...
FYI.
33 posted on 12/06/2001 2:01:47 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population.

Being of mostly Celtic heritage probably explains my good looks. ;)

34 posted on 12/06/2001 2:08:48 PM PST by BluH2o
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To: blam
The Basque language (and to a large degree their DNA) is unlike all other Indo-European languages.

Isn't the French Basque dialect very similar to the Welsh dialect? Read this sometime ago ...

35 posted on 12/06/2001 2:15:54 PM PST by BluH2o
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To: blam
trace your family back that far?

Sure, some of it. The branch that carried the current family name, anyway, but not all the lines that married in and changed their name. It's filled in a lot better after 1650.

36 posted on 12/06/2001 2:15:59 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: crystalk
direct descendant

I don't understand the difference between a direct descendent versus an indirect descendent.

37 posted on 12/06/2001 2:17:48 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: blam
I cannot remember his name presently)

Madoc

38 posted on 12/06/2001 2:25:23 PM PST by arthurus
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To: BluH2o
Isn't the French Basque dialect very similar

No.

39 posted on 12/06/2001 2:28:08 PM PST by arthurus
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To: blam

AYE what would you do without your FREEEEEEDOOOOOMMMMMMMM?

40 posted on 12/06/2001 2:28:47 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: arthurus
"Madoc"

Yup. See my post #22.

41 posted on 12/06/2001 2:29:19 PM PST by blam
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To: PJ-Comix
I was reading a short while ago that as the Federal government forced the Cherokees out of the Eastern Mountains quite a number of white families suddenly aquired red skinned relatives-obviously, not all the ebil' white pilagers were quite so ebil'. And many a white man, including some in my ancestry, had nothing against inter racial marriage and found themselves Indian brides amoung the native peoples, the traits of which still show in some of my relatives in Winston County, MS. I read that this practise was common amoung the Celtic folks of the Southern frontier, though despised by Northerners, in their enlightened state.
42 posted on 12/06/2001 2:40:44 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: blam
Aren't there supposed to be some stone forts atop Lookout Mountain in Alabama attributed to Madoc? I can't recall the exact location right now. I know the Odl Stone Fort in TN was once believed to have been a Welsh settlement, but is now known to have been an Indian ceremonial complex. But it seems like I remember hearing of some other "forts" in the region.
43 posted on 12/06/2001 2:48:01 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: blam
In another article, I've read that the Basque of Spain/France are most closely related to the Scots and Irish. The Basque language (and to a large degree their DNA) is unlike all other Indo-European languages. (They appear to be a group that was isolated in ancient times)

I haven't heard that, but it is interesting. There may be a link: in the Scottish Declaration of Independence, which hails from the era just after William Wallace, it is mentioned that the Scots had previously been to the land where the 'Pillars of Hercules' is, which is known as the gateway to the mediterranean, and usually associated with Spain. More study needs to be done regarding these matters.

I know from my own last name entered the lexicon of the Scots-Irish from the Normans, who came from France, and Scandinavia before that. Too bad this article didn't mention them, they have a heavy influence on England as well.

44 posted on 12/06/2001 2:53:23 PM PST by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
I am not surprised that a Freeper who would post Braveheart on a thread would also have the US Constitution on his profile page. Good show A-Punk!

My G'father was from Sterling Scotland, and as I also play the pipes, I know the story well. I Sat throught Braveheart 3 times the first time I saw it. I prefer to consider the movie to be an alegory to Goldwater and Reagan.

Alba Go Bragh!

45 posted on 12/06/2001 3:00:46 PM PST by elbucko
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To: LN2Campy
The Basque language is not related to ANY other world language. It is truly a linguistic oddity. You can find some info on this on the web, like here for example. Now, Finnish, on the other hand, is most closely related to Hungarian... which provides an interesting window onto migration patterns there.
46 posted on 12/06/2001 3:03:06 PM PST by austinTparty
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To: blam
So, we actually ARE all Irish on St. Paddy's Day.
47 posted on 12/06/2001 3:16:12 PM PST by Slyfox
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To: Slyfox
With Irish on me fathers side to annoy the Scot's on me mothers side, I can honestly affirm that you can be as "Irish as you want to be" on St.Pat's.

Erin Go Bragh!

48 posted on 12/06/2001 3:25:32 PM PST by elbucko
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To: Cleburne
I think the jury is still out on the Tennessee site. Don't know about the other sites.
49 posted on 12/06/2001 3:27:27 PM PST by blam
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To: austinTparty
(Thanks austinTparty)

A History of the Basque Language

By Manfred Owstrowski, a German linguist and professor

I. Language families and genetic language relationships in Europe
Most of the languages spoken in Europe belong to one single language family: Indo-European. Basque is the sole surviving non-Indo-European language in Western Europe, it is classified as a language isolate. Besides Indo-European, there are to be found languages of four other families in Europe; the Uralic family and the Altaic stock are represented, and we have to add two language families in the Caucasian area, namely South Caucasian and North Caucasian.

The Indo-European language family can be divided into 11 branches, consisting of living and/or extinct languages of Europe and parts of Asia: Indo-Iranian, with Sanskrit and modern representatives like Hindi and Punjabi on the Indic side and Persian, Kurdish, Pashto and many other languages on the Iranian side; Armenian; Classical and Modern Greek; Albanian, which presumably is a descendant of the ancient Illyrian language; Italic, originally consisting of Osco-Umbrian and Latino-Faliscan, today represented by the modern descendants of Latin, the Romance languages (Rumanian, Italian, French, Catalan, Spanish, Portuguese and others); Celtic, with Irish (= Gaelic), Welsh and Breton still spoken; Germanic, with the extinct Gothic language, North Germanic (Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic) and West Germanic (German, Dutch, Frisian, English); Baltic, here we have to mention Lithuanian and Latvian; Slavic, with Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Serbo- Croatian, Bulgarian and some others; Tocharian, which is divided into two languages (called „Tocharian A“ and „Tocharian B“) once spoken in an area of western China; finally, Anatolian, a group of long extinct languages (e.g., Hittite and Luwian) of what is now Turkey. All these branches of Indo-European are believed to go back to a single proto-language, called Proto-Indo-European. The area where Proto-Indo-European was originally spoken (the Proto-Indo-European „homeland“) is still a matter of dispute, but various hints point to Eastern Europe, north and north-east of the Black Sea, and it seems to be rather clear that Indo-European languages are relatively late intruders in Western Europe. Concerning the time when Proto-Indo-European must have been in use, one may think of the end of the stone age in Europe.

....snip....(I've read reports from linguists that the 'mother tongue' originates in Anatolia.)

50 posted on 12/06/2001 3:35:25 PM PST by blam
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