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Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) ^ | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins

Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam

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To: blam
>The comet that plunged into the Celtic Sea in 540AD and brought on the Dark Ages

Did that comet have a name?

101 posted on 12/07/2001 8:07:08 AM PST by LostTribe
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To: blam
What I find interesting here is the view that the Celts are somehow the indigenous peoples of the British Isles, when archaeology clearly shows that they were invaders just like the Vikings and the Anglo's. GB really hasn't had a "native" population since the Bell-Beaker people crossed over from modern France and taught metalworking to the neolithic natives who were barely more advanced than cave men. This merging of the small Bell-Beaker group and the larger native group resulted in the Wessex Culture, which is often described as the only truly British civilization to grace the Isles. The Wessex were sun-worshipping pagans who apparently developed quite an advanced understanding of math, astronomy, and engineering. It was also the Wessex who built Stonehenge and a number of the other complex stone monoliths that dot the English countryside. The Celts didn't cross the channel into the Isles until between 1500B.C. and 1000.B.C. The culture they encountered upon landing was already in decline, so it would appear that they had little trouble taking Britain away from the natives. How peaceful (or violent) this takeover was is lost to modern history.

So you see, if these tested people really have Celtic blood, then they are Germanic or French by ancestry, not British. Given the relatively small population of pre-Celtic Britain, though, it's highly likely that the truly native bloodlines are nearly destroyed.
102 posted on 12/07/2001 8:11:34 AM PST by Arthalion
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To: Travis McGee
Thanks for the ping!
103 posted on 12/07/2001 8:35:53 AM PST by vikingchick
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To: LostTribe
"Did that comet have a name?"

Lug/Lugh or Cuchulinn, son of Lug/Lugh. (It may have been just a close flyby comet). I'm quoting Mike Baillie. ( I believe this is also referenced in Clube and Napiers book, Cosmic Winter and another book titled Catasthrophe.)

104 posted on 12/07/2001 8:45:56 AM PST by blam
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To: Interesting Times
Contrary to popular opinion the Vikings actually settled in places they invaded. They conquered large portions of central europe and russia. They had a society that was interested in wealth and staying where they invaded, ensured prolonged wealth. I believe the fairness of the English and some of Russia is attributed to their genes. I don't believe they were any more barbaric than any other population at the time.
105 posted on 12/07/2001 9:08:09 AM PST by wingnuts'nbolts
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To: blam
Where is that Scot's dirk?

I thought they always carried a razor sharp double edged dirk in case they had to settle an arguement beyond the reach of fisticuffs.

106 posted on 12/07/2001 9:25:33 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
"I thought they always carried a razor sharp double edged dirk"

That's the Skean Dhu.

107 posted on 12/07/2001 11:33:18 AM PST by blam
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Comment #108 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
"In Scotland the proportion of those with Celtic ancestry was found to be little different from the population of southern England."

PROBLEM 1:

Highland Scots and Lowland Scots have very different ethnic backgrounds. Did this study distinguish between the two? Highland Scots are mainly Celtic with some Norman and Scandinavian blood. Lowland Scots supposedly had more Saxon, Flemish, and other northeastern European genes.

PROBLEM 2

"Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2,000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the AngloSaxons."

The researchers are assuming the present population of Schleswig_Holstein is derived from the Anglo-Saxon people of the 400's and 600's. These people may have moved to England to escape pressure from other invading Germanic Tribes from the East who then settled in the old Saxon Homeland. As a matter of fact, the modern language most closely related to English and Anglo-Saxon today is Frisian, a language spoken by a small population in the Netherlands.

PROBLEM 3

"On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indigenous population, suggesting that the Anglo-Saxons made more of an impact on the Celts in northern England."

York was part of the Danelaw, the area settled by Danish Vikings in the 800s and 900s, a group presumably more closely connected with the modern population of northeastern Europe than were the Anglo-Saxons.

"Many of the place names in southern England have Celtic origins. Among them are Leatherhead, in Surrey, which meant "the grey ford". "

So what? In the U.S. many of the place names are Indian in origin. Yet the American Indian component in America's current bloodline, while there, is not pervasive. Traditionally, place names used by a displaced or conquered race are employed by the conquerors - i.e. all the "chesters" in England form the Latin "Castra", etc.

OBSERVATION

"If you believe Gildas, the Anglo-Saxons would have been chasing the ancient Britons, catching up with one who wasn’t fast enough and saying, ‘Look here, before I cut off your head, just tell me the name of this place’,"

Its more likely that the Anglo-Saxons, being better organized and more warlike, conquered the Celtic masses, used them as serfs and slaves and intermarried with them. (This was a process which was occuring in Gaul before the Roamn legions stepped in and blocked the Germanic advance for a few centuries.) As time progressed, the two separate populations became fused into one. There are clearly individuals today in England who have Germanic features and others who have Celtic features and some a combination of both or neither.

109 posted on 12/07/2001 12:00:19 PM PST by ZULU
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To: blam
Basque was apparently once spoken in much larger area in western Europe. Latin records refer to Vasscones living in what was then southwestern Gaul - the area known as Aquitaine in the Middle Ages. Vascones is related to the term "Gascon" for a person from that area of France.

Some scholars believe Basque is actually related to the languages spoken by the early Cro-Magnon invaders of Europe.

Basque isn't the only linguistic anomaly in Europe. There is also Pictish, the language spoken by the early inhabitants of Scotland, Elymian - a language spoken in western ancient Sicily, Etruscan, a whole group of languages spoken in the Alpine area in ancient times, the ancient Iberian language of southern Spain, and ancient Minoan (Pre-Linear B which was actually an ancient form of Greek)>

110 posted on 12/07/2001 12:19:15 PM PST by ZULU
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To: facedown
ping
111 posted on 12/07/2001 12:22:09 PM PST by sistergoldenhair
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To: LostTribe
You're right, the later waves of vikings were looking for land to settle (Which is why the Icelanders speak a variety of Old Norse). But they were initially just looking for easy quick riches and slave girls.
112 posted on 12/07/2001 12:27:51 PM PST by LN2Campy
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To: Cleburne
Did you ever hear of a bersekr? They were Viking warriors who behaved in much the same way, possibly eating hallucinogenic mushrooms before going into action. Appropriately enough, they were throughly feared.

As for the Romans fearing Celts - not very likely. Particularly since a lot of Romans WERE Celts. The typical Roman helmit was actually called a Gallic Helmet. Thos large rectangular shields the Romans used were based on a Celtic model and the famous gladius, or Roman short sword was actually called the gladius Hispaniensis by the Romans as it was adopted from the Celt-Iberians in Spain. The Romans, although originating in Central Italy, both adopted conquered people into their system, as well as their tools, ideas and customs. In a sense this was the great strength of the Empire, its ability to absorb and incorporate conquered people into the political and military structure, rather than attempt to keep all the wealth and power for themselves. Its also, in a way, the strength of America, take the best which is sent to or immigrates to us, and discard the rest.

113 posted on 12/07/2001 12:34:14 PM PST by ZULU
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To: blam
Got it! Thanks for the education.
114 posted on 12/07/2001 12:40:22 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Cacique
thanks for the links!
115 posted on 12/07/2001 12:40:56 PM PST by LN2Campy
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To: blam
DNA testing like this will revolutionize our perceptions about history, point out some obvious flaws, and maybe teach us something about ourselves.
116 posted on 12/07/2001 12:45:25 PM PST by 4CJ
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To: blam
Watever it's worth, the English name Moore is an Anglicized form of the Gaelic Murphy
117 posted on 12/07/2001 1:08:14 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: blam
Thanks for the in-depth profile of the beaker people. All that I remembered from reading about many years ago were that they were a neolithic farming people.

Have you ever seen a copy of "Ancient American"?

118 posted on 12/07/2001 2:16:41 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: LN2Campy
Did the Vikings Stay? Vatican Files May Offer Clues

By WALTER GIBBS
Courtesy of JM Stenersens Forlag

SLO, Dec. 18 — Excavations prove that a few score Norsemen bumped ashore in northern Newfoundland 1,000 years ago, landing in America almost 500 years before Columbus. But scholars generally dismiss the event with an asterisk because they say it did not change the course of history.

Have they sold the Vikings short?

Dr. Thor Heyerdahl, the Norwegian anthropologist, thinks so, but then, he is no conventional scholar. He is best known for the perilous "Kon Tiki" raft expedition from Peru to Polynesia in 1947, made to illustrate that ancient South American Indians could have colonized the Pacific.

In interviews and a new book, Dr. Heyerdahl and Per Lilliestrom, a Swedish map expert, claim that thousands of their hardy Norse ancestors may have prospered in the land that Leif Ericson christened "Vinland" in A.D. 1000. In their view, the colonists spread as far south as today's New York City, fishing, tending farm animals and cutting timber for several hundred years under the solicitous eye of the Catholic Church in Rome.

"Vinland is more than most people think," said Dr. Heyerdahl, robust and combative at 86. "I would draw the boundaries of Vinland to include the area from Hudson Strait in the north down through the Gulf of St. Lawrence and all the way down to Long Island. Why would they stop?"

Dr. Heyerdahl has an affinity with the tough Norsemen who ventured into water so foreboding that medieval map makers illustrated it with dragons and whirlpools. After gaining fame for "Kon Tiki," Dr. Heyerdahl sailed from Morocco to Barbados on a primitive-style reed vessel to promote the idea that ancient Mediterranean mariners could have paid visits to Central America. His theory of a Greater Vinland is nearly as daring, coming just as other prominent scholars have closed ranks around a minimalist account of the Norse journeys.

The view held by most established scholars is that the height of Norse civilization in America consisted of eight sod buildings and a blacksmith forge. They were excavated in the 1960's at L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland. A bronze cloak pin, iron rivets and other artifacts from the blustery site are part of "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga," an exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History in Manhattan.

L'Anse aux Meadows settlers almost certainly came from Greenland, where Leif Ericson's father, Eric the Red, founded a Norse colony in A.D. 987. But no more than 90 people seem to have occupied the Newfoundland outpost, and they left after a few years. The Greenlandic mother colony lasted half a millennium, then disappeared in one of anthropology's great mysteries. Its population reached a peak of 2,000 to 5,000 people in the 1200's.

In making their case that Norsemen wandered through much of the American Northeast, Dr. Heyerdahl and Mr. Lilliestrom cited medieval European writings and maps suggesting that the Greenlanders were on to something big. They also mounted a fresh scientific defense of "Norse" artifacts that most experts have dismissed as phony or misidentified: a rune stone from Minnesota, a mysterious stone tower in Newport, R.I., and Yale's "Vinland Map."

The result is a book, "Ingen Grenser," Norwegian for "No Boundaries." It will be revised and retitled before release in English in 2001, according to the publishing house J. M. Stenersens Forlag.

The unique approach of Dr. Heyerdahl and Mr. Lilliestrom was to cast a Roman Catholic glow over medieval Greenland and Vinland. They even called Leif Ericson "a Catholic missionary." The sagas say he was baptized at the royal court in Norway before converting Greenland to Christianity and discovering the new Western lands.

It was in the Vatican Library in Rome that Dr. Heyerdahl found the earliest reference to a land beyond Greenland, in Adam of Bremen's "History of the Archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen" from 1075.

"He also spoke of another island," Adam wrote, referring to his interview with King Svend Estridsen of Denmark, "which many have found in this great ocean, and which is named Vinland because grapes grow wild there, and yield the best wine. There is also an abundance of self- sown grain, as we know not from hearsay only, but from the sure report of the Danes."

Dr. Heyerdahl said, "I think few people are aware that 400 years before Columbus, the papal see knew there was land over there." He noted that 16 bishops were assigned to oversee Greenland and associated lands between 1112 and the demise of the Greenlandic colony around 1500.

The clearest suggestion that something transformative had taken place in North America came from the hand of a 17th century Icelandic bishop. Citing 14th century annals that have been lost, the bishop, Gisli Oddsson, wrote: "The inhabitants of Greenland, of their own free will, abandoned the true faith and the Christian religion, having already forsaken all good ways and true virtues, and joined themselves with the folk of America."

Scattered Norse finds in eastern Canada do suggest that the Greenlanders crossed the northern Davis Strait for centuries to trade with the Inuit or to cut timber, but there is no sign of wholesale resettlement. And the only undisputedly Norse object found in today's United States was an 11th century silver coin from Norway that turned up in Maine.

By contrast, the American scenario in "No Boundaries" is a rich one:

Settlers and traders from throughout the North Atlantic drifted west to escape the grasp of royal tax collectors and bishops demanding tithes. On becoming Vinlanders, they lived primitively, much as French trappers did centuries later, marrying Indian women and leaving few traces.

According to Mr. Lilliestrom, their numbers may have spiked around 1110. A reported 10,000 Norwegian crusaders returning from the Middle East sailed through the Strait of Gibraltar that year, but there is no record of a homecoming in Norway. Mr. Lilliestrom thinks they may have sailed or been swept westward on the current that would later bring Spaniards to America. On sighting land, he said, they would instinctively have turned north and found the Vinland farers.

Such an infusion would have raised Vinland's profile, accounting for later mentions of the place in Icelandic annals and even, Mr. Lilliestrom said, on the infamous Vinland Map.

In 1957, Yale bought the map, supposedly drawn before Columbus yet showing "Vinilanda Insula" in the Northwest Atlantic. When chemical analysis suggested the ink contained a 20th century synthetic version of titanium dioxide, the map was denounced as a fraud. But Mr. Lilliestrom denounced the denouncers after a chemistry experiment of his own:

From the Swiss Alps, where the Vinland Map was purportedly made, he acquired natural anatase crystals and ground them finely in accord with ink-making instructions from a 15th century German art book. The resulting titanium dioxide ink was, he claimed, identical with the chemical and crystalline structure of the ink on the Vinland Map.

For Mr. Lilliestrom, the significance of the map is its Latin notation stating that Vinland was visited in 1117 by "Henricus, apostolic legate and bishop of Greenland and the nearby areas.

"There must have been a Christian congregation in Vinland/America at that time, because otherwise the pope would not have sent a man so high up in the church's hierarchy," he said.

In his view, the Norse Vinlanders later dissolved so thoroughly into the Indian population that only their light skin and the occasional pair of blue eyes remained for European explorers to remark upon in the 16th century as they sailed along a coast identified on their maps as "Norumbega" or "Normanvilla."

When Dr. Heyerdahl discussed "No Boundaries" at the University of Oslo recently, more than 600 people crowded the hall. Skeptics said they feared the "Kon Tiki" adventurer could touch off a wave of uncritical Vikingmania in North America.

"This is farther out than anything he has ever done before," said Birgitta Wallace, a Parks Canada archaeologist who devoted 20 years of her career to L'Anse aux Meadows. "In my opinion, it's not much more than a fantasy."

119 posted on 12/07/2001 2:18:27 PM PST by blam
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To: rightofrush
"Have you ever seen a copy of "Ancient American"?"

Yup. Just received my first copy, I subscribed.

120 posted on 12/07/2001 2:20:56 PM PST by blam
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