Skip to comments.Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam
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Did that comet have a name?
Lug/Lugh or Cuchulinn, son of Lug/Lugh. (It may have been just a close flyby comet). I'm quoting Mike Baillie. ( I believe this is also referenced in Clube and Napiers book, Cosmic Winter and another book titled Catasthrophe.)
I thought they always carried a razor sharp double edged dirk in case they had to settle an arguement beyond the reach of fisticuffs.
That's the Skean Dhu.
Highland Scots and Lowland Scots have very different ethnic backgrounds. Did this study distinguish between the two? Highland Scots are mainly Celtic with some Norman and Scandinavian blood. Lowland Scots supposedly had more Saxon, Flemish, and other northeastern European genes.
"Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2,000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the AngloSaxons."
The researchers are assuming the present population of Schleswig_Holstein is derived from the Anglo-Saxon people of the 400's and 600's. These people may have moved to England to escape pressure from other invading Germanic Tribes from the East who then settled in the old Saxon Homeland. As a matter of fact, the modern language most closely related to English and Anglo-Saxon today is Frisian, a language spoken by a small population in the Netherlands.
"On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indigenous population, suggesting that the Anglo-Saxons made more of an impact on the Celts in northern England."
York was part of the Danelaw, the area settled by Danish Vikings in the 800s and 900s, a group presumably more closely connected with the modern population of northeastern Europe than were the Anglo-Saxons.
"Many of the place names in southern England have Celtic origins. Among them are Leatherhead, in Surrey, which meant "the grey ford". "
So what? In the U.S. many of the place names are Indian in origin. Yet the American Indian component in America's current bloodline, while there, is not pervasive. Traditionally, place names used by a displaced or conquered race are employed by the conquerors - i.e. all the "chesters" in England form the Latin "Castra", etc.
"If you believe Gildas, the Anglo-Saxons would have been chasing the ancient Britons, catching up with one who wasnt fast enough and saying, Look here, before I cut off your head, just tell me the name of this place,"
Its more likely that the Anglo-Saxons, being better organized and more warlike, conquered the Celtic masses, used them as serfs and slaves and intermarried with them. (This was a process which was occuring in Gaul before the Roamn legions stepped in and blocked the Germanic advance for a few centuries.) As time progressed, the two separate populations became fused into one. There are clearly individuals today in England who have Germanic features and others who have Celtic features and some a combination of both or neither.
Some scholars believe Basque is actually related to the languages spoken by the early Cro-Magnon invaders of Europe.
Basque isn't the only linguistic anomaly in Europe. There is also Pictish, the language spoken by the early inhabitants of Scotland, Elymian - a language spoken in western ancient Sicily, Etruscan, a whole group of languages spoken in the Alpine area in ancient times, the ancient Iberian language of southern Spain, and ancient Minoan (Pre-Linear B which was actually an ancient form of Greek)>
As for the Romans fearing Celts - not very likely. Particularly since a lot of Romans WERE Celts. The typical Roman helmit was actually called a Gallic Helmet. Thos large rectangular shields the Romans used were based on a Celtic model and the famous gladius, or Roman short sword was actually called the gladius Hispaniensis by the Romans as it was adopted from the Celt-Iberians in Spain. The Romans, although originating in Central Italy, both adopted conquered people into their system, as well as their tools, ideas and customs. In a sense this was the great strength of the Empire, its ability to absorb and incorporate conquered people into the political and military structure, rather than attempt to keep all the wealth and power for themselves. Its also, in a way, the strength of America, take the best which is sent to or immigrates to us, and discard the rest.
Have you ever seen a copy of "Ancient American"?
By WALTER GIBBS
Courtesy of JM Stenersens Forlag
SLO, Dec. 18 Excavations prove that a few score Norsemen bumped ashore in northern Newfoundland 1,000 years ago, landing in America almost 500 years before Columbus. But scholars generally dismiss the event with an asterisk because they say it did not change the course of history.
Have they sold the Vikings short?
Dr. Thor Heyerdahl, the Norwegian anthropologist, thinks so, but then, he is no conventional scholar. He is best known for the perilous "Kon Tiki" raft expedition from Peru to Polynesia in 1947, made to illustrate that ancient South American Indians could have colonized the Pacific.
In interviews and a new book, Dr. Heyerdahl and Per Lilliestrom, a Swedish map expert, claim that thousands of their hardy Norse ancestors may have prospered in the land that Leif Ericson christened "Vinland" in A.D. 1000. In their view, the colonists spread as far south as today's New York City, fishing, tending farm animals and cutting timber for several hundred years under the solicitous eye of the Catholic Church in Rome.
"Vinland is more than most people think," said Dr. Heyerdahl, robust and combative at 86. "I would draw the boundaries of Vinland to include the area from Hudson Strait in the north down through the Gulf of St. Lawrence and all the way down to Long Island. Why would they stop?"
Dr. Heyerdahl has an affinity with the tough Norsemen who ventured into water so foreboding that medieval map makers illustrated it with dragons and whirlpools. After gaining fame for "Kon Tiki," Dr. Heyerdahl sailed from Morocco to Barbados on a primitive-style reed vessel to promote the idea that ancient Mediterranean mariners could have paid visits to Central America. His theory of a Greater Vinland is nearly as daring, coming just as other prominent scholars have closed ranks around a minimalist account of the Norse journeys.
The view held by most established scholars is that the height of Norse civilization in America consisted of eight sod buildings and a blacksmith forge. They were excavated in the 1960's at L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland. A bronze cloak pin, iron rivets and other artifacts from the blustery site are part of "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga," an exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History in Manhattan.
L'Anse aux Meadows settlers almost certainly came from Greenland, where Leif Ericson's father, Eric the Red, founded a Norse colony in A.D. 987. But no more than 90 people seem to have occupied the Newfoundland outpost, and they left after a few years. The Greenlandic mother colony lasted half a millennium, then disappeared in one of anthropology's great mysteries. Its population reached a peak of 2,000 to 5,000 people in the 1200's.
In making their case that Norsemen wandered through much of the American Northeast, Dr. Heyerdahl and Mr. Lilliestrom cited medieval European writings and maps suggesting that the Greenlanders were on to something big. They also mounted a fresh scientific defense of "Norse" artifacts that most experts have dismissed as phony or misidentified: a rune stone from Minnesota, a mysterious stone tower in Newport, R.I., and Yale's "Vinland Map."
The result is a book, "Ingen Grenser," Norwegian for "No Boundaries." It will be revised and retitled before release in English in 2001, according to the publishing house J. M. Stenersens Forlag.
The unique approach of Dr. Heyerdahl and Mr. Lilliestrom was to cast a Roman Catholic glow over medieval Greenland and Vinland. They even called Leif Ericson "a Catholic missionary." The sagas say he was baptized at the royal court in Norway before converting Greenland to Christianity and discovering the new Western lands.
It was in the Vatican Library in Rome that Dr. Heyerdahl found the earliest reference to a land beyond Greenland, in Adam of Bremen's "History of the Archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen" from 1075.
"He also spoke of another island," Adam wrote, referring to his interview with King Svend Estridsen of Denmark, "which many have found in this great ocean, and which is named Vinland because grapes grow wild there, and yield the best wine. There is also an abundance of self- sown grain, as we know not from hearsay only, but from the sure report of the Danes."
Dr. Heyerdahl said, "I think few people are aware that 400 years before Columbus, the papal see knew there was land over there." He noted that 16 bishops were assigned to oversee Greenland and associated lands between 1112 and the demise of the Greenlandic colony around 1500.
The clearest suggestion that something transformative had taken place in North America came from the hand of a 17th century Icelandic bishop. Citing 14th century annals that have been lost, the bishop, Gisli Oddsson, wrote: "The inhabitants of Greenland, of their own free will, abandoned the true faith and the Christian religion, having already forsaken all good ways and true virtues, and joined themselves with the folk of America."
Scattered Norse finds in eastern Canada do suggest that the Greenlanders crossed the northern Davis Strait for centuries to trade with the Inuit or to cut timber, but there is no sign of wholesale resettlement. And the only undisputedly Norse object found in today's United States was an 11th century silver coin from Norway that turned up in Maine.
By contrast, the American scenario in "No Boundaries" is a rich one:
Settlers and traders from throughout the North Atlantic drifted west to escape the grasp of royal tax collectors and bishops demanding tithes. On becoming Vinlanders, they lived primitively, much as French trappers did centuries later, marrying Indian women and leaving few traces.
According to Mr. Lilliestrom, their numbers may have spiked around 1110. A reported 10,000 Norwegian crusaders returning from the Middle East sailed through the Strait of Gibraltar that year, but there is no record of a homecoming in Norway. Mr. Lilliestrom thinks they may have sailed or been swept westward on the current that would later bring Spaniards to America. On sighting land, he said, they would instinctively have turned north and found the Vinland farers.
Such an infusion would have raised Vinland's profile, accounting for later mentions of the place in Icelandic annals and even, Mr. Lilliestrom said, on the infamous Vinland Map.
In 1957, Yale bought the map, supposedly drawn before Columbus yet showing "Vinilanda Insula" in the Northwest Atlantic. When chemical analysis suggested the ink contained a 20th century synthetic version of titanium dioxide, the map was denounced as a fraud. But Mr. Lilliestrom denounced the denouncers after a chemistry experiment of his own:
From the Swiss Alps, where the Vinland Map was purportedly made, he acquired natural anatase crystals and ground them finely in accord with ink-making instructions from a 15th century German art book. The resulting titanium dioxide ink was, he claimed, identical with the chemical and crystalline structure of the ink on the Vinland Map.
For Mr. Lilliestrom, the significance of the map is its Latin notation stating that Vinland was visited in 1117 by "Henricus, apostolic legate and bishop of Greenland and the nearby areas.
"There must have been a Christian congregation in Vinland/America at that time, because otherwise the pope would not have sent a man so high up in the church's hierarchy," he said.
In his view, the Norse Vinlanders later dissolved so thoroughly into the Indian population that only their light skin and the occasional pair of blue eyes remained for European explorers to remark upon in the 16th century as they sailed along a coast identified on their maps as "Norumbega" or "Normanvilla."
When Dr. Heyerdahl discussed "No Boundaries" at the University of Oslo recently, more than 600 people crowded the hall. Skeptics said they feared the "Kon Tiki" adventurer could touch off a wave of uncritical Vikingmania in North America.
"This is farther out than anything he has ever done before," said Birgitta Wallace, a Parks Canada archaeologist who devoted 20 years of her career to L'Anse aux Meadows. "In my opinion, it's not much more than a fantasy."
Yup. Just received my first copy, I subscribed.
Updated 12:40 PM ET September 8, 2000
LONDON (Reuters) - Something catastrophic occurred on Earth 1,500 years ago that may have led to the Dark Ages and coincided with the end of the Roman Empire and the death of King Arthur, a Northern Ireland scientist said Friday. It could have been a bombardment of cometary debris or the eruption of a super volcano.
But whatever it was, it is clearly etched in the chronology of tree rings from around the world, according to Professor Mike Baillie, of Queen's University in Belfast.
The global environmental event that occurred around 540 AD is not recorded in any history books. But the tree ring chronologies compiled from samples of trees, some preserved in bogs, which date back thousands of years, single out something that was quite extraordinary.
"It was a catastrophic environmental downturn that shows up in trees all over the world," Baillie told a news conference at the British Association for the Advancement of Science conference. "This event is clear in the tree ring records."
(The 540AD event is not recorded, dust/acid layer, in the ice core samples. That's the source of the comet speculation)
Makes sense to me. What do you have around the year 722 BC, in the Eastern Med?
Nothing. I have major 'tree ring events' at 1628BC, 1159BC and 540AD. There are two minor events at 207BC and 44BC. These are all worldwide events. I will check the tree ring charts and see if I can see anything 'localized' around 722BC. What about that date (722BC) interests you?
Lost Tribes, an Encarta Encyclopedia Article Titled "Lost Tribes"
Lost Tribes , in Jewish history, ten tribes that inhabited the kingdom of Israel and many of whose members were exiled by Sargon II, king of Assyria (reigned 722-705 BC), after the Assyrian conquest (722 BC) of http://encarta.msn.com/index/conciseindex/4B/04B22000.htm?z=1&pg=2&br=1
I have for some time. Enjoy.
Keep in mind that it is a low-budget operation and they print whatever is sent in over the transom.
It has been my supposition that the Highland Scots were mostly Pictish survivors, while the lowland Scots were principally from the Scotia tribe that came over from Ireland in the 5th and 6th centuries and first settled in Argyle.
This remindes me of one of my pet peeves. "By" was a suffix or prefix meaning town in the Danelaw.
Byways are therefore roads or ways through town. Their center was depressed, serving as a gutter.
Highways are roads or ways between towns with a raised center for drainage.
Why are rual senic roads called "byways"? Ignorance!
The expression "By and large" refers to what is true or revalent in both town and country. "At large" refers to someone at loose in the countryside.
Nobody is quite certain where the Basques originated from. Some think that they are the descendents of the original Iberians.
When the Celts first invaded Iberia, they conquered the northern half of the peninsula from present day France to Portugal. As time passed, the Basques reconquered their present territory cutting off the nortrhwestern Celts in Spain from their cousins in France.
The Celts in central Spain intermarried with the Iberians to form the Celt-Iberians encountered by the Romans. The Galician and the Asturian tribes, however, retained a purer Celtic character protected by the Cantabrian Mountains to the south and the sea to the north.
The name "Galicia" is derived from the Roman name for the region Caellecia which means "Lands of the Celts". The archeology of the period yields Celtic hill forts (Castros) and the Celtic torques common to the Celts.
Galicia was the last Celtic stronghold on the European Continent conquered by the Romans. They were not defeated until the Cantabrian War in 25 B.C. and were not fully subdued until the campaign of Augustus' general Agrippa in 19 B.C.
"Not many of the Cantabri were taken prisoner, for when they saw they had lost all hope of freedom, they lost all desire to preserve their lives either. Some set fire to their forts and cut their own throats, others willingly remained with their companions and died in the flames, while others took poison in the sight of all. In this way the great majority and the fiercest among the tribesmen were wiped out."......Cassius Dio, Roman History (XLIV.5)
"...Spain by the nature of the country and the character of its people, was better adapted than any other place in the world to making loses good for a renewal of hostilities. This is the reason why Spain, though it was the first mainland province to be entered by the Romans, was the last to be completely subdued, and held out till our own times, when it was finally conquered under the leadership and auspices of Augustus Caesar.".....The History of Rome (XXVIII.12)
Today, the national musical instrument of Galicia is the bagpipe and the dancing resembles the Irish dance.
My Y chromosome comes from Galicia. It would be interesting to see DNA studies comparing all the Celtic homelands in Europe.
Who invented ale/beer?
Beer has been with us at least 4-5000 years. It was known to Summarians and Egyptians.
Do you know anything about the Fomorians? They were black and supposedly attacked and captured part of Ireland? Further, I have read one anthropologist speculate about Leprechauns, he said that the Bushmen were the original Irish and the source of the legends of the Leprechauns. I went off and read a lot about the Bushmen, they do fit the bill.
The African Bushmen are in fact Asians and their young have the tell-tell Mongoloid spots on their backs. They are small, have pointed ears and could be described as impish. There are no more pure Bushmen, they have intermingled with the Bantu (blacks) of Africa.
(your thoughts on this?)
I don't know who invented beer. My hubby thinks he did.:)
That is the approximate date the Northern Kingdom was taken into captivity by the Assyrians. Actually, the captivity took place in waves and was spread over a number of years, but that single date is most often cited as a reference point. How that evacuation of millions of people might tie in with tree rings seems obscure to me at this point.
I would speculate that 610 BC, when they escaped bondage and 5 Million headed north through the Caucasus Mountains to soon be discovered by history as The Celts might have a better chance at having a tie to a catyclism. Sort of like being sprung from prison following an earthquake???
You may be suprised. 2-3 Chinese dynasties collapsed concident with the tree ring 'event' dates. Okay, I don't see anything in the tree ring data for 722BC or 600BC. I will keep the dates in my mind and alert you if I come across anything centered around those dates.
I have this wonderful book, titled "The Celtic Heroic Age", which is a compendium of historical accounts of the Celts. There is a great quote from Strabo, in which he says the Irish like to eat their dead and do the whap-a-dang with their siblings.
We came from a fun bunch.
Thanks, I appreciate it. -LT