Time for government to reveal truth about Pearl Harbor

The Baltimore Sun ^ | December 7, 2001 | Lee Gaillard

[jackbill]

PHILADELPHIA -- Early that Tuesday morning, terrorist suicide crews piloting hijacked jetliners killed an estimated 4,000 people from 86 countries.

Quickly labeled the Pearl Harbor of 2001, Sept. 11 has been acknowledged as a massive intelligence-gathering failure at the highest levels.

On that infamous Sunday morning 60 years ago today, against the Pearl Harbor naval base in Hawaii, Japanese Adm. Chuichi Nagumo's Operation Z carrier task force launched its attack that destroyed nearly 200 American aircraft, sank five battleships, severely damaged three cruisers, three destroyers and three auxiliaries, and killed 2,476 U.S. servicemen and civilians.

[jackbill]

Are there really 60 year old "military secrets" that our government must protect? Or is the government just trying to protect someone's reputation? Is there any other reason why the government won't release the information?

I highly recommend Mr. Stinnett's book - Day of Deceit.

[JohnGalt]

The Greatest Generation does not tolerate dissent.

[The Duke]

I suspect that the answer to all of the above questions is that the element of surprise is a potent weapon. With regard to the author's questioning of radar signals detectected, as I understand it this was the first activation of the first production radar used by the US military, and the assumption on turning it on and seeing all the echos was that "the darn thing was broke".

There's nothing I'd like better than to rhetorically snipe at FDR, but I just don't seem much ammunition in the above article.

[thusevertotyrants]

and just who is John Galt? :P We knew nothing about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor. Those slanty eyed yellow devils done sneak attacked us. And Lee Harvey Oswald assasinated JFK, acting alone. And Iraq used to be good when they were against the Ayatollah, but then they became bad when they invaded Kuwait. And Bin Laden was a freedom fighter when he was fighting those godless Russian Commies. But now he is evil because he despises freedom and bombed the Trade Center. I know all this because my government says so, and, since my government is American and since America is truth and justice and freedom and apple pie and hot dogs and all those other good things that means the American government has never lied ....... right?

[thusevertotyrants]

I forgot to add the snide comment that you obviously have a tin foil hat if you believe any of that lunacy about a cover-up at Pearl Harbor. But then again, FDR was president, and you never can trust them shifty beady eyed democRATS can ya? .........

[wwjdn]

What a bunch of crap! Unless the book was writen before December 7, 1941, then it is garbage. Hind site is always 20-20!

I knew about September 11th before hand and I told President Bush but he failed to listen to me (sarcasm off)

[sanchmo]

But in his meticulously researched Day of Deceit, Robert B. Stinnett states, "Seven Japanese naval broadcasts intercepted between Nov. 28 and Dec. 6 confirmed that Japan intended to start the war and that it would begin at Pearl Harbor."

Were there seven and only seven intercepts? If there were more than seven, what did the other ones say?. Were there, say, 7000 intercepts with 1000 different messages? Unless he can show that every intercept said the same thing, or even the vast majority of them, this is another yawner.

[Sunshine Sister]

The reason for the cover up is that FDR's butt still needs to be covered. How can he be a hero to the democrats if he's a traitor? Okay that may be a bit harsh. How's this? How can he still be a hero if he was a blind, deaf idiot?

[WhiskeyPapa]

La de Da.

Watch Tora Tora Tora!

Most of the questions in this article will be answered. To think that President Roosevelt had prior knowledge of the PH attack is just ludicrous.

Walt

[jackbill]

Most of the questions in this article will be answered. To think that President Roosevelt had prior knowledge of the PH attack is just ludicrous.

Perhaps if you read Stinnett's book, you just might develop some doubts. If you're not interested, fine. If you want to keep an uniformed opinion, fine.

[The Great RJ]

While it is easy for us to see the many threads of information that pointed to the attack 60 years after the fact, at the time likely no one could have pulled all this information together and deduced that an attack on Pearl Harbor was imminent.

Clearly there were some in the government who thought an attack by the Japanese was likely at the end of 1941, but most thought it would come in the Philipines or Malaya and few if any seriously considered an air attack on Pearl Harbor.

[David]

"Most of the questions in this article will be answered. To think that President Roosevelt had prior knowledge of the PH attack is just ludicrous."

The issue of time of decypher of the military messages is decisive--if the author is correct and we had read the military messages before December 6, Roosevelt knew the attack was coming and actively sought to be sure it would happen. That view is supported by the order to Kimmel not to send a destroyer investigation force to the area from which the attack was initiated.

The issue would be resolved by complete access to the classified material. If the classified material did not demonstrate that FDR knew, why would it not be released? I assume, until they give a complete open declassification, that they are hiding the truth for the purpose of concealing FDR's prior knowledge of the attack.

[Emmanual_Goldstein16]

Hollywood always has the answers!!! Want to know all about Viet Nam, See THe GReen Berets. Want to know about anything, just watch a movie. I saw a Russian made movie about Ivan the Terrible which made him look like Lenin, and a Saint no less. Get a life.

[JohnGalt]

The reason for the cover-up is that there were hundreds of Stalinist in FDR's administration who wanted war with Japan (and Germany, but less so) to ensure the Japanese would not attack the unportected Eastern front of Russia.

[skeeter]

We hadn't broken any military codes before the war, we had broken the Japanese' diplomatic code.

[BlueLancer]

"I highly recommend Mr. Stinnett's book - Day of Deceit."

I have read Stinnett's book ... purchased it in hard-cover shortly after it was published to add to my personal library, hoping that it might shed some light on subjects that it purported to be covering.

Needless to say, I found it to be mainly a re-hash of gossip, innuendo, and suppositions, bootstrapped together to make it appear that there was some scholarship attached to it. Quotes taken out of context, data and information unfavorable to the thesis was simply omitted or distorted to the point where it no longer had any bearing on what it originally stated, and leaps of logic wide enough to make Evel Knievel dismount from his motorcycle.

Proof? Hardly. Circumstantial evidence? Maybe...possibly. Beyond a reasonable doubt? Not by any stretch of the imagination.

[It'salmosttolate]

PEARL HARBOR: MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES (lest you think the swindle the government is pulling on the people is something new)

FDR lied.

The Pearl Harbor Deception

Kimmel & Short denied key info on approaching Japanese fleet.

FDR intended to provoke war!

[WhiskeyPapa]

Hollywood always has the answers!!! Want to know all about Viet Nam, See The Green Berets. Want to know about anything, just watch a movie. I saw a Russian made movie about Ivan the Terrible which made him look like Lenin, and a Saint no less. Get a life.

"Tora Tora Tora!" goes into great detail on the intellignce picture that was developed. It also deals with the USS Ward's attack; heck, parts of it are pretty dull it goes into so much detail.

The actual attack scenes are awesome; very well done. The whole thing is SO much better than this crappy movie that came out last year.

Walt

[BlueLancer]

"Russian made movie about Ivan the Terrible which made him look like Lenin"

No, I think it made Stalin look like Ivan ... that's when he was on his "Look at me, I'm not a communist, I'm a nationalist" kick.

[Ciexyz]

They'll be posting articles like this sixty years from 9-11 on the Freeper site of 2062. They'll be saying that the US Government was forewarned about an airplane attack by the Phillipines and by security roundtables, yada yada.

[TexanaRED]

It's time for the government to reveal the truth about a whole lot of things!

[JohnGalt]

No, they will point a finger of blame at Herr Clinton for a terrible record against terrorism, and how the push for an American Empire ebbed.

Teddy Roosevelt's drive for Empire began the century, George W. return to Republic the end of the century will make a good theme -- or am I wishful thinking?

I guess I'm not as cynical about history as you are.

[1Old Pro]

I don't believe that anyone knew for sure that Pearl Harbor would be bombed on December 7th...except the Japanese commanders.

[Steelerfan]

Probably true. Gordon Prange's "At Dawn We Slept" is an excellent history of the attack and points out that the Japanese had to overcome a number of technical hurdles (most importantly the shallow depth of the harbor which made it impossible to drop conventional torpedoes) before the attack could be succesful. Many of their own commanders didn't think it would work and expected more damage to be inflicted by the mini-subs. Plus, if Roosevelt really knew about the attack, why did he allow the Secretary of War to issue a "War Warning" in November, and why didn't he leak the news to the navy shortly before the attack so the U.S. could win the first battle? The attack itself would have been sufficient provocation to get us into the war, Roosevelt did not have to allow it to be a complete success.

[KentuckyWoman]

There are a few more items that I find disquieting, although they may be covered in the book that you recommend:

1. Why were ALL of our carriers ordered out of Pearl only hours before the attack? (there were most always 2 - 4 carriers in port - especially over the weekends).

2. Why did Pearl NOT have one of the "purple" decoders? They were the closest base to Japan and were denied one even through we sent TWO to England who was NOT in any way threatened by Japan?

3. The powers in Washington HAD to have realized that by placing the trade sanctions they did against Japan that they were, essentially, leaving that Nation NO option but to go to war - most of the world's oil at that time was coming from the Phillipeans (sp?) and practially ALL of Japan's. In order to survive, as a nation, Japan really had no choice but to expand by whatever means at its disposal.

4. FDR wanted to go to war in Europe (the old economy boost, maybe?) but the American public was set against such involvement. After Pearl Harbor, public attitude changed drastically (as it should have, IMHO) and played right into FDR's wish list plan.

This is by NO means an exhaustive list and wouldn't even make good Cliff's Notes but, these things bother me greatly just the same.

[aristeides]

I'm going to a reception in honor of the Pearl Harbor anniversary being held by the National Cryptologic Museum Foundation near Ft. Meade this evening. Cryptologic veterans of Pearl Harbor will speak. It'll be interesting to hear what they have to say.

[Billthedrill]

Proof? Hardly. Circumstantial evidence? Maybe...possibly. Beyond a reasonable doubt? Not by any stretch of the imagination.

That's my take on Stinnett's book as well. His error, IMHO, was a rather too-sunny impression of just how fuzzy, contradictory, inefficient, and occasionally just plain incompetent, the flow of intelligence within the "intelligence community" really is in the real world. You still get a lot of that here on FR and elsewhere with regards to, say, the CIA - they must be hiding something because they couldn't be that dumb. And sometimes the former, to be sure...but mostly the latter.

[Shooter 2.5]

" Why were ALL of our carriers ordered out of Pearl only hours before the attack? "

You have got to be kidding! Where in the world did you ever read that?

[WhiskeyPapa]

" Why were ALL of our carriers ordered out of Pearl only hours before the attack? "

You have got to be kidding! Where in the world did you ever read that?

Anyone even generally familiar with these events knows that USS Enterprise had been gone from Pearl for some time, and was in fact -returning- to Pearl after dropping off VMF 211 (Marine Fighter Squadron w/ 12 X F-4-F Wilcats) at Midway.

Walt

[KentuckyWoman]

I'd be interested in hearing what you find out. Please either post it here or Freepmail me. My father was in the Navy during the end of WWII and I still find this period in history simply fascinating. Sometimes I come across references to my dad's ship so it also reminds me of him and makes me somehow still feel close to him.

[KentuckyWoman]

" Why were ALL of our carriers ordered out of Pearl only hours before the attack? "

You have got to be kidding! Where in the world did you ever read that?

My father was in the Navy and I garnered quite a bit of information from him and his brothers (2 of which are retired Navy vets). I have also seen several references to the carriers being ordered out for cruises the Friday and Saturday morning before the attacks in several books on the subject. If I can remember, I'll check at home tonight to be certain and let you know the reference material.

[KentuckyWoman]

You are correct that the Enterprise was on her way back, however, she wasn't due in until (I think it was) Monday....

[aristeides]

Yes, the Pacific Fleet got orders from Washington to have the carriers ferry planes to Wake Island and Midway about two weeks before Pearl Harbor, and I believe they left within a day. Those orders came, by the way, one day after Washington had ordered Adm. Kimmel to cut off naval exercises that he was holding northwest of Oahu, precisely where the Japanese fleet would appear two weeks later.

I believe Washington intended to prevent Kimmel's fleet from spotting the Japanese fleet, and that that was the reason why the carriers were ordered to leave the scene. It's interesting that -- unusually, and I think uniquely during that period -- U.S. reconnaissance flights out of the Aleutians were also ordered down for a couple of days around the time of Dec. 7.

[aristeides]

I looked up the matter of the carriers in Stinnett's "Day of Deceit." Kimmel's exercises were called off on Nov. 24. The orders from Washington for ferrying aircraft came on Nov. 26. The Enterprise left Pearl for Wake Island on Nov. 28. And the Lexington left Pearl for Midway on Dec. 5.

[pgkdan]

As much as I dislike FDR I simply can't believe that the gov't had any prior knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack. I think they knew the Japanese were up to something, but Dec 7 was a surprise. Does anyone really think that FDR wanted so badly to get into WWII that he would be willing to see the Pacific Fleet crippled? That he'd be willing to lose almost all of our Pacific Battle Ships?

[WhiskeyPapa]

I believe Washington intended to prevent Kimmel's fleet from spotting the Japanese fleet, and that that was the reason why the carriers were ordered to leave the scene.

So are you suggesting that FDR wanted the Navy hurt, but not hurt too badly? And unlike the admirals, he knew that carriers would be decisive in the upcoming war?

It's just too far-fetched. Why not order the carriers into port and sortie the battleships?

The intelligence noise is going to show that yes, FDR wanted to provoke the Japs; heck, the US Navy was actively hunting and attacking German submarines in the Atlantic. Was FDR hoping for a German attack on New York harbor? How badly was the US navy supposed to damaged by the Germans in THAT scenario?

It's all ridiculous.

Walt

[conservative cat]

"Day of Deceit" was one heck of a book. The documentation and the work put into this book were overwhelming. I do not have the patience nor the tenatiousness to hang on or go to the lengths the author did to investigate this story.

I would also recommend Admiral Kimmel's book: "Admiral Kimmel's Story." It has been out of print for many years, but you can still find a used copy via Amazon.com. He wrote a compelling argument for his side, with evidence presented.

[aristeides]

So are you suggesting that FDR wanted the Navy hurt, but not hurt too badly? And unlike the admirals, he knew that carriers would be decisive in the upcoming war?

No, I think he was concerned with the matter at hand, seeing to it that the Japanese attack occurred, and that the U.S. military forces did nothing that could be construed as striking the first blow. He also wanted the Japanese attack to be effective and spectacular, because he wanted to encourage Hitler to declare war. The fact that the carriers were what turned out to be militarily decisive was, I suspect, not considered, and merely a beneficial unintended side-effect.

[Shooter 2.5]

The most important thing that I keep on thinking is that all we had to do was fight a battle. Where does it say that we had to lose it? If Roosevelt knew about a Japanese attack. Why didn't we simply plan to win it? We would have lost some sailors and ships and that would have been sufficient to declare war. I don't believe that they knew that an attack on Pearl Harbor was going to happen.

[aristeides]

Remember, we have to explain not only Pearl Harbor, but also MacArthur's mysterious failure to respond to it, and his letting his planes be caught on the ground many hours after Pearl Harbor.

[colorado tanker]

We did not "force" the Japanese to attack by imposing trade sanctions and demanding they end their invasion of China and Indochina. Before Pearl Harbor the Japanese had occupied Manchuria and begun a war of conquest of the Chinese and Indochinese mainland. It was also clear they were not going to stop there, but were going to move on the Dutch West Indies for oil and other resources and to do that would have to take the Phillipines.

The US unlimatum simply made plain our policy that to avoid war with the US (and implicitly Britain and the Netherlands), Japan had to stop the aggression.

The ludicrous claim that the US "forced" the attack by demanding an end to Japanese warmaking and imposing trade sanctions is identical to the Democrat's claim during the Cold War that we were "forcing" the Soviet Union into the arms race and that if we'd just be nice to the Sov's they would quit the Cold War. You don't cause aggression by demanding aggressors stop.

[KentuckyWoman]

Wasn't the Saratoga also ordered out only a few days prior or do I have it mixed up with another carrier?

[aristeides]

When Pearl Harbor happened, the Saratoga happened to be on the West Coast of California. I don't know how it got there, or why. What your father told you is presumably correct. Maybe somebody on this thread has more info.

[John H K]

Day of Deceit is a piece of crap. "Meticulously researched" means anything by Gordon Prange, such as "At Dawn We Slept."

[WhiskeyPapa]

No, I think he was concerned with the matter at hand, seeing to it that the Japanese attack occurred, and that the U.S. military forces did nothing that could be construed as striking the first blow.

Then why was he having the US Navy -actively- attack German submarines?

Gosh it would be a mess if we got dragged into the war in Europe first, huh?

FDR knew we needed to be in the war. He arranged a climate where that was likely to happen.

But he did not know exactly would happen.

Think about this; what if the Japs had only attacked the Phillipenes? You'd have many in the US saying, "we don't belong in that part of the world anyway." There is no way FDR could cut things that close-- unless the Japs were in on it too. They would have to have agreed to attack PH. It's all too far fetched.

Walt

[KentuckyWoman]

Okay, Okay...try this:

Pearl Harbor: Mother of Conspiracies

As for the trade sanctions - why do you think that Japan SUDDENLY decided to begin taking over everything within any proximity to their country to begin with? The trade sanctions began BEFORE they began their large scale invasions.

[aristeides]

If Saudi Arabia were to cut off oil shipments to us, and we attacked as a result, would you seriously argue that we had not been forced to attack?

On Nov. 26, we made clear to the Japanese that we would not resume our shipments of strategic materials to them unless and until they evacuated not only Indochina and China proper, but Manchuria, which Japan had occupied ten years earlier. No nation was going to accept such a demand, and anyone with any sense had to know that. Suppose Saudi Arabia were to condition further deliveries of oil on our surrendering our Southwest to Mexico. Would that make such an embargo any more acceptable?

[aristeides]

Gosh it would be a mess if we got dragged into the war in Europe first, huh?

Not at all. It was the war in Europe that FDR was primarily interested in getting this country into. But since his attempts to provoke the Germans in the undeclared naval war in the North Atlantic had failed, he had to find another way. War with Japan was just a means to an end, the end being war with Germany.

[colorado tanker]

I don't believe we imposed trade sanctions before the Japanese invasion of China.

Saudi Arabia did cut off our oil and we didn't invade them.

We should never demand that one country's occupation of another be ceased if it's more than 10 years old? Well color me stupid, but I was one of those who cheered when President Reagan demanded, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this Wall!" And you know what, the d__d Wall came down and the Sov's withdrew from E. Germany, Poland, Czechoslovaki, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, some of which had been under occupation for more than 30 years.

Sometimes you just gotta take a stand or decide you're gonna let the bad guys keep on winning.