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Never Blame the Left (Were the Nazis Left or Right?)
National Review Via http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/genocide.html ^ | Dec., 1995 | George Watson

Posted on 12/10/2001 10:32:57 AM PST by Ditto

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Comments? Is our 'conventional wisdom' about what is left and right wrong? Do we need to correct the political map?
1 posted on 12/10/2001 10:32:57 AM PST by Ditto
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To: Ditto
It is a myth, that I am tired of hearing, that the NAZIs were Socialists. Regardless of their official name, the National Socialist German Workers' Party was one of dozens of political parties extant during the time of the Weimar Republic.

Whatever its platform was initially, Hitler and Ernst Rohm had perverted the political party to their own ends, and those ends were not Lenin, Marx and Engles.

2 posted on 12/10/2001 10:46:00 AM PST by The Shootist
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To: Ditto
Where's the link to National Review?
3 posted on 12/10/2001 10:46:37 AM PST by VinnyTex
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To: The Shootist
Nazism, facsism and National Socialism are all expressions of the most extreme right wing of political thought. Hitler claimed to be a lot of different things, often lying many times. Why is it then that, just because he selected the term 'Socialist' so as to be more appealing to the political center, some are so willing to take him at his word?
4 posted on 12/10/2001 10:53:52 AM PST by Petronski
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To: Abbalon
Join the fun here
5 posted on 12/10/2001 10:56:53 AM PST by Ditto
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To: The Shootist
With all due respect (and anyone named "The Shootist" deserves respect from even other armed persons ;-)) I disagree. The idea of the state setting policy and having control of the culture is an idea of the left and not the right (true conservatives want to be left alone and not told what to do by anyone or anything, incluing the state; and, they don't care about telling others what to do).

In my mind, the central issue of Bolshevik leftism was class; the central issue of Hitlerian leftism was race.

Totalitarians suck, and totalitarianism is of the left, not right, IMO.

6 posted on 12/10/2001 10:57:12 AM PST by Pharmboy
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To: Ditto
I agree the Nazi's were really socialists. Hitler's 25 points clearly shows the socialists roots of the National Socialists Party.

The spectrum for state vs. individual rights goes from anarchy (nobody can decide anything for anybody else) to absolute monarchy (one person decides everything for everybody). Socialism, Communism and Monarchy are really quite similar. There is also the function of how the government is selected from democracy to birth-right.

When you start looking at our Constitution in the light of People vs. State, you realize how brilliant the Founding Fathers were.

7 posted on 12/10/2001 10:57:26 AM PST by DrDavid
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To: VinnyTex
I found the article elsewhere. Click the link and scroll about halfway down the page for the article.
8 posted on 12/10/2001 10:58:31 AM PST by Ditto
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To: The Shootist
"NATIONAL SOCIALISM" //Top Navigational Bar III (By BrotherCake @ cake@brothercake.net) //Permission granted/modified by Dynamicdrive.com to include script in archive //For this and 100's more DHTML scripts, visit http://www.dynamicdrive.com

"The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights; under socialism, the right to property (which is the right of use and disposal) is vested in 'society as a whole,' i.e., in the collective, with production and distribution controlled by the state, i.e., by the government.

"Socialism may be established by force, as in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics--or by vote, as in Nazi (National Socialist) Germany. The degree of socialization may be total, as in Russia--or partial, as in England. Theoretically, the differences are superficial; practically, they are only a matter of time. The basic principle, in all cases, is the same.

"The alleged goals of socialism were: the abolition of poverty, the achievement of general prosperity, progress, peace and human brotherhood. The results have been a terrifying failure--terrifying, that is, if one's motive is men's welfare.

"Instead of prosperity, socialism has brought economic paralysis and/or collapse to every country that tried it. The degree of socialization has been the degree of disaster. The consequences have varied accordingly."

From: "The Monument Builders," from The Virtue of Selfishness, by Ayn Rand, c. 1964

 

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism--by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide."

From: "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main Weapon," by Ayn Rand, pub. in Los Angeles Times, 9/9/62 G2

 

"Both 'socialism' and 'fascism' involve the issue of property rights. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Observe the difference in those two theories; socialism negates private property rights altogether, and advocates 'the vesting of ownership and control' in the community as a whole, i.e., in the state; fascism leaves ownership in the hands of private individuals, but transfers control of the property to the government.

"Ownership without control is a contradiction in terms: it means 'property,' without the right to use it or to dispose of it. It means that the citizens retain the responsibility of holding property, without any of its advantages, while the government acquires all the advantages without any of the responsibility."

From: "The New Fascism: Rule by Consensus," from Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, by Ayn Rand, c.1966

 

"The difference between [socialism and fascism] is superficial and purely formal, but it is significant psychologically: it brings the authoritarian nature of a planned economy crudely into the open.

"The main characteristic of socialism (and of communism) is public ownership of the means of production, and, therefore, the abolition of private property. The right to property is the right of use and disposal."

Quoting Ayn Rand from: The Fascist New Frontier, pamphlet, p. 5

 

[Adolf Hitler on Nazism and socialism:] "Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the party as the representative of the general good. There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual belongs to himself. This is Socialism--not such trifles as the private possession of the means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them then own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the party, is supreme over them, regardless whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper."

"Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings."

Adolf Hitler to Hermann Rauschning, quoted in The Ominous Parallels, by Leonard Peikoff C. 1982

________________________________________________________________________

Fascism/Nazism:

"Under fascism, men retain the semblance or pretense of private property, but the government holds total power over its use and disposal.

"The dictionary definition of fascism is: "a governmental system with strong centralized power, permitting no opposition or criticism, controlling all affairs of the nation (industrial, commercial, etc.), emphasizing an aggressive nationalism"[The American College Dictionary, New York: Random House, 1957.]

"Under fascism, citizens retain the responsibilities of owning property, without freedom to act and without any of the advantages of ownership. Under socialism, government officials acquire all the advantages of ownership, without any of the responsibilities, since they do not hold title to the property, but merely the right to use it--at least until the next purge. In either case, the government officials hold the economic, political and legal power of life or death over the citizens.

"Needless to say, under either system, the inequalities of income and standard of living are greater than anything possible under a free economy--and a man's position is determined, not by his productive ability and achievement, but by political pull and force."

Quoting Ayn Rand from: The Fascist New Frontier, pamphlet, p. 5

 

"Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of control. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property--so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property.

"If "ownership" means the right to determine the use and disposal of material goods, then Nazism endowed the state with every real prerogative of ownership. What the individual retained was merely a formal deed, a contentless deed, which conferred no rights on its holder. Under communism, there is collective ownership of property de jure. Under Nazism, there is the same collective ownership de facto."

From: The Ominous Parallels, ch. 9, pb.18, by Dr. Leonard Peikoff, C. 1982


9 posted on 12/10/2001 10:59:28 AM PST by VinnyTex
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To: Pharmboy
The central issue for the Taleban is religion!
10 posted on 12/10/2001 10:59:40 AM PST by DrDavid
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To: Ditto
"Right" and "left" are such purely arbitrary designations that I don't think they're either descriptive or particularly useful anymore. Their origin was, after all, lay in the side of the aisle the delegates sat on after the French revolution - and I'm not sure "revolutionary" or "royalist" really captures the current American political scene.

The difference in "socialism" between the economic programs of the Nazis and the Communists lay in whom they'd allow the ownership of the means of production - the Communists wanted the state to own all of them; the Nazis were content to control them and allow the owners (Krupp, e.g.) to maintain nominal ownership. If that's "socialism" then yes, they were socialists too.

11 posted on 12/10/2001 11:00:42 AM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Ditto
"Ever since then everyone who has advocated genocide has called himself a socialist, without exception. "

Political demonizing at work. Guess the right(bad) or left(good) depends on who is doing and who is the victim of the genocide. OK for the left but not OK for the right. Then there is the human genocide of birth control and abortion - now is that left or right?

Merry Christmas

12 posted on 12/10/2001 11:01:20 AM PST by ex-snook
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Petronski; shootist
Then define for me what is left and what is right. If Nazis and Commies are opposites on the political spectrum as we have been taught, what are the defining characteristics that make them so. According to Prof. Watson, before WWII it was generally accepted, even in socialist circles, that the Nazis were on the left. How, after their demise, did they become the far right? If the far left is total government, would not the far right be total anarchy?
14 posted on 12/10/2001 11:05:22 AM PST by Ditto
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: Ditto

16 posted on 12/10/2001 11:12:20 AM PST by Cindy
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To: Ditto
Looks as if someone saw your post and decided to share it with the lefties over at Indymedia. They are not amused. Care to see the first response and to reply to them (no need to register), Click here
17 posted on 12/10/2001 11:12:51 AM PST by LarryLied
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To: The Shootist
It is a myth, that I am tired of hearing, that the NAZIs were Socialists.

If this article can be believed, they - and other socialists - certainly seemed to think they were. How is it that you know better than they, what their political opinions were?

Whatever its platform was initially, Hitler and Ernst Rohm had perverted the political party to their own ends, and those ends were not Lenin, Marx and Engles.

Even if true - this means they were "not socialist"?

I guess you'd better tell us all what your definition of "socialism" is. Here's mine, in the interest of fairness: public ownership and disposal of property.

You can successfully argue that the Nazis were "not socialist", I suppose, but you can't reasonably do so using my definition. And mine comes from the dictionary. So: what's yours? And where does it come from?

thanks in advance,

18 posted on 12/10/2001 11:13:05 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Ditto
Who is Prof. Watson?
19 posted on 12/10/2001 11:13:52 AM PST by Petronski
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To: Petronski
Nazism, facsism and National Socialism are all expressions of the most extreme right wing of political thought.

How so? Mussolini (who invented "fascism", as such) started out as a Socialist. Can you deny this?

20 posted on 12/10/2001 11:14:00 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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