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Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531
Catholic History | 12 12 2001 | Cap'n Crunch

Posted on 12/12/2001 7:21:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch

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To: Delbert
See post 53 or 57. This is the miraculous tilma. That painting is on a poncho that was worn by Juan Diego, the man who saw Mary. The image miraculously appeared on it after Mary arranged roses in Juan Diegos poncho and presented them to the Bishop.

There have been an untold number of books about the appartion and the tilma, which is still on display in the Church in Mexico. You can go see it if you wish, millions do every year.

It is much like the Shroud of Turin in that scientistst cannot explain its manufacture let alone its existence after nearly 500 years. Nor can they explain the images in the eyes, which have been looked at by at least 16 opthamologists who have testified that looking into the eyes on the image is like looking into the eyes of a human being. There are roughly 6 or 7 people reflected in the eyes of the Virgin on the tilma.

The whole thing is very fascinating.

101 posted on 12/12/2001 9:56:03 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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Comment #102 Removed by Moderator

To: Cap'n Crunch; pro-life
Very kind of you CC to pretend not to see the insult in pro-life's post.
103 posted on 12/12/2001 9:56:18 AM PST by wtc911
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To: wtc911
Thank you,

My Mother taught me some manners. ;0)

104 posted on 12/12/2001 9:59:37 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Delbert
No man cometh to the Father but by Me and Mom! Didn't you know that?
105 posted on 12/12/2001 10:00:02 AM PST by babylonian
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To: grammarman
> By the way -- and I'm sure you RCs have an answer for this one -- if she was sinless, why did she say her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior (Luke 1:47)? Someone who's sinless doesn't need a Savior.

She was saved before she was born. She was knit before she was in her mother's womb.

Thanks. Sorry to be such a Berean but, do you have a Scripture reference for that, please?

106 posted on 12/12/2001 10:05:07 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: Delbert
Just reading some info in the back of one of my books. It says that 20 Million people visit the Basillica in Mexico to see the image every year, the natural life of such a cactus poncho is 20 years, after that they turn to dust. For the first 100 or 200 years it hung in the open air. Socialists tried to destroy it by planting a bomb under it in 1921.

In 1979 it underwent infra red testing that would have revealed overpainting, alterations, the presence of varnish, sizing or preliminary drawings.

Still unexplained.

I suggest getting a few books on the subject because the info and miracles fill volumes.

107 posted on 12/12/2001 10:06:25 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
If any of you have cable and are interested, I'm sure Mother Angelica will have several stories on the apparition tonight on EWTN.

Great network. She had alot on Guadalupe last year.

108 posted on 12/12/2001 10:08:02 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: fishtank
We have a winner! Fishtank was there as Jesus grew from childhood to adulthood. Fishtank knows and is kind enough to tell us that in all 33 years Jesus never once called Mary his mother. Quick, get me the Vatican, we have to change everything.

Before you fall back on the theory that if it's not in the NT Jesus didn't say it, think. What did he call Mary when he was five years old? or seven? ou profess to know what he d idn't call her, what name did he use?

109 posted on 12/12/2001 10:09:05 AM PST by wtc911
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To: sinkspur
Without feeling the need to be courteous themselves because they always have the "I'm defending my mother" attitude which lets them be hyper offended whenever they want.
110 posted on 12/12/2001 10:09:28 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: Cap'n Crunch
For your information, several years ago an article appeared in The St. Louis Review, Catholic newspaper, in which this story about Guadalupe was admitted to have been made up for political-religious reasons. I was stunned to see it but pleasantly surprised that they came clean on the issue.
111 posted on 12/12/2001 10:12:00 AM PST by Woodkirk
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To: Delbert
From Catholic Biblical Apologetics

First it is important to note that the Bible does not say that these "brothers and sisters" of Jesus were children of Mary.

Second, the word for brother (or sister), adelphos (adelpha) in Greek, denotes a brother or sister, or near kinsman. Aramaic and other semitic languages could not distinguish between a blood brother or sister and a cousin, for example. Hence, John the Baptist, a cousin of Jesus (the son of Elizabeth, cousin of Mary) would be called "a brother (adelphos) of Jesus." In the plural, the word means a community based on identity of origin or life. Additionally, the word adelphos is used for (1) male children of the same parents (Mt 1:2); (2) male descendants of the same parents (Acts 7:23); (3) male children of the same mother (Gal 1:19); (4) people of the same nationality (Acts 3:17); (5) any man, a neighbor (Lk 10:29); (6) persons united by a common interest (Mt 5:47); (7) persons united by a common calling (Rev 22:9); (8) mankind (Mt 25:40); (9) the disciples (Mt 23:8); and (10) believers (Mt 23:8). (From Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Thomas Nelson, Publisher.)

Protestant reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin also believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

God bless.

112 posted on 12/12/2001 10:21:30 AM PST by Gophack
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To: Cap'n Crunch
i went to the page on post #57...it took me to a web page with a picture of mary and a cherub at the bottom....it didnt look like a poncho or a cactus...
113 posted on 12/12/2001 10:22:53 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Gophack
poor Joseph....bad enough that his fiance is pregant and not by him...but after Jesus is born...he still doesn't get any? thats unjust.
114 posted on 12/12/2001 10:25:02 AM PST by Delbert
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To: eastsider
#70: ...and the unborn.
115 posted on 12/12/2001 10:26:43 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Delbert
11,178 posts? I better pack a lunch...thats a lot of thread...

No need to start at post 1 -- just jump in and feel free to bring up any religious topic at any time, even if it's been brought up a gazillion times previously (and trust me, it has : ) The "Neverending" thread is a sand box (or mud bog, if you will) that is completely stream of (religious) consciousness.
116 posted on 12/12/2001 10:29:47 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Delbert
The tilma worn by the seer of Guadalupe (Juan Diego) was woven from cactus fibers. Despite its coarse weave, the underlying image has very distinct lines.
117 posted on 12/12/2001 10:32:58 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Cap'n Crunch
No catholic bashing here. My irenic mom studied catholicism for several years, and took me along. The mysticism can be enveloping. I look back fondly on those years, and would like to think it's part of what built in me a questioning nature.

Perhaps that's Mary's intercession. (Though I'm a big Mary Magdelen fan, too.)

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting, and inspiring.

118 posted on 12/12/2001 10:34:17 AM PST by onedoug
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To: al_c
To this day, the physical properties of this image remain scientifically inexplicable.

This is the sort of statement that exacerbates my confusion about religion. The implication seems to be that because science can offer no explanation it is evidence of some miracle beyond the ken of scientists and understandable only through religion. In other words, it is an appeal to my logic.

In the body of the original post, however, there is a description of events wherein Juan has several meetings with Mary. The description recounts how, on the one hand, Mary was unaware of whether Juan had met with the Bishop or not. Then, on the other hand, when the Bishop doesn't reveal to Juan what "sign" he expects, Mary somehow knows this. This strikes me as rather illogical.

I want to make it clear I am not attempting to bash Catholics or Christians and that I appreciate the "heavy lifting" done by these and other religions in the formation of Western values of life and liberty. I post to inform that some, me anyway, don't understand, and an occasional appeal to logic concerns me. It suggests deception.

119 posted on 12/12/2001 10:36:07 AM PST by laredo44
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Bumping on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.
120 posted on 12/12/2001 10:36:54 AM PST by Salvation
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To: eastsider
I read through some of it all ready..obviously a lot of well read people contributing to that thread with historical facts to back up statments. I like studying biblical archaeology and history of christianity,judaism, catholicism and even more recently islam and even been reading a little bit about Hinduism due to the recent death of George Harrison. Theres a lot of info out there and it is hard to discern at times. The recent completed publication of the dead sea scrolls is very interesting as well. I enjoyed our exchange thoroughly...best regards...dale
121 posted on 12/12/2001 10:38:02 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I'm still looking for the punchline. where is it?
122 posted on 12/12/2001 10:38:39 AM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Woodkirk
Needless to say, I dont subscribe to that point of view, apparently nearly every Pope since Benedict XIV in the 1700's has honored Our Lady of Guadalupe, Pope John Paul II was the first to visit the Basillica in 1979.
123 posted on 12/12/2001 10:39:42 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Delbert
they were popping up all over the place

Our Lady of the Rainbird?

124 posted on 12/12/2001 10:40:38 AM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Delbert
You can probably pick up a book at a library. Or you can catch EWTN if you have cable. You can go to a catholic book store and get books or videos.

Or, you can go to the Basillica in Mexico and see the tilma for yourself. It's still there. If you make it this week I'm sure there will still be much celebrating going on.

125 posted on 12/12/2001 10:44:07 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
....and for some really good reading try "Foxes Book of Martyrs"
126 posted on 12/12/2001 10:45:27 AM PST by patriot_wes
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To: onedoug
Your welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Get some books or a video on it if you get a chance. Neat stuff.

127 posted on 12/12/2001 10:45:58 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
which punchline are you speaking of?
128 posted on 12/12/2001 10:47:04 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: biblewonk
BWAHAHAHAHAH Oh man that made me sweat. A Priest could get arrested for showing a choir boy his bundle. hehehehehe
129 posted on 12/12/2001 10:50:03 AM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Texaggie79
pinged!
130 posted on 12/12/2001 10:50:29 AM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: laredo44
Any confusion you have probably is my fault, I typed the post from my memory and part from a book I have. I was in a bit of a hurry and things didnt turn out as good as they could have.

If your interested I recommend reading some books yourself (as you can see LOL) I'm not a great writer.

131 posted on 12/12/2001 10:50:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Delbert
It took you how many posts to show that you truly hold nothing sacred?

We now know more about you than you probably wanted us to. And don't try the "can't you take a joke" tack. You are relegating the Lord's stepfather on earth, a role for which he was chosen because of his decency, to the role of cuckold and implying that his suggested celibacy added insult to injury.

You make a dirty joke of the Holy Family. This in spite of your more pious earlier posts.

132 posted on 12/12/2001 10:53:24 AM PST by wtc911
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Arent there some suggestions that these apparitions could be demonicly inspired to take focus away from Jesus Christ...to get as many people to stray from Christ centered worship by getting them to focus elsewhere? i did read over the website posted on #57. Interesting...not going to slam it and offend you. I've been reading alot lately and with renewed vigor....I was a bit upset by the death of George Harrison and the way several folks mandated that he was going to hell because of his krishna/hindu based faith. I try to read as much as possible and pray that God grants me knowledge to discern all gathered info. My main source of is the bible....hasnt failed me yet...although I have failed it repeatedly : ( , but that is the good thing about forgiveness and grace isn't it?
133 posted on 12/12/2001 10:55:42 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Delbert
Best wishes on your journey, I'll say some Ave's for you.
134 posted on 12/12/2001 10:59:18 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: wtc911
you are wrong..you dont think that people on the street were talking about Mary being in a "family way". You dont think that people were saying ...she's pregnant? yeah right, and it's God's baby? you dont think Joseph was in precarious positon being torn by devotion to his wife, devotion to what he was told by god's angel about his wife being with child, and more or less embarrassed about her being pregnant before they were married let alone having not consumated their marriage. you dont think joseph and mary consumated their marriage after the birth of christ....you dont think joseph and mary had sex ever? he was a man with natural desires and he had a wife , but he's not going to ever have sex with her?
135 posted on 12/12/2001 11:05:33 AM PST by Delbert
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To: wtc911
Joseph was a man, Mary was a woman..Neither was devine, both completely 100% human with human wants and desires and needs. Neither of them were holy.Jesus Christ(Yeshua-yes folks he was Jewish)was the only one that was Holy . He also was a man, but he was also God and therefore able to withstand earthly temptations unlike Joseph and unlike Mary. They wre chosen by God to bring forth his son Jesus (Yeshua) into the world because they were found by God to be worthy of doing so, because they were worthy of this does not mean they were worthy of being worshipped or acting as a mediator between Man and God. And I do hold a lot of things sacred and one of them is to try and have an open mind and try to look at things from someone elses perspective while I try to maintain a steadfast faith. However when I read a post like yours, I will spar anytime. You show me one verse in the Holy Bible where it says that we are to worship and or follow anyone but Jesus Christ and I will humbly accept your chastisement!
136 posted on 12/12/2001 11:17:49 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Sorry I'm a bit late arriving to this little fracas, but here goes... I am not Catholic, but some of my dearest friends are, so I don't consider myself a Catholic basher, even though I disagree with most of the theology. I've been to the basilica in Mexico City and seen the tilma as close as I could get. It sure looks like a painting to me. Some also call it the Black Madonna because Mary's skin tone doesn't look like a lily-white European's -- the indians were said to be more attracted to the image and its message for that reason. I'm sure the image served its purpose of conversion, even though it wasn't divine in origin -- but then I don't accept the Shroud of Turin as divine, either. I don't require manifestations, apparitions, signs, or "miracles" to believe the Gospel -- just the internal evidence of Truth contained therein.
137 posted on 12/12/2001 11:49:55 AM PST by TexasRepublic
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To: Delbert
Missed the point entirely didn't you? Your faith is not in question. Just your good taste.

We agree on the humanity of Mary and Joseph. But, they were chosen, out of the billions of people who have walked the earth, to be the guardians of our Saviour's childhood. If you find their challenge of faith to be a subject for schoolboy humor then go right ahead. Just don't think that it doesn't reveal elements of your character.

138 posted on 12/12/2001 11:52:48 AM PST by wtc911
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I believe in LAdy of Guadalupe, and I believe she will liberate South America from facist Marxism. She weighs down on my soul right now.
139 posted on 12/12/2001 11:54:59 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: sinkspur
I've yet to see a Fundamentalist thread disrupted by Catholics, yet you Bible-beaters troll this place, literally jumping offside in your efforts to belittle your fellow Christians

The problem is many of the "Bible believing" Christians don't see Catholics as Christians.

140 posted on 12/12/2001 11:58:00 AM PST by conservonator
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To: pro-life
I am not familiar with the catholic church...

That's abundantly clear. Odd that someone with the screen name of "pro-Life" is ignorant of the original Christian church. Most pro-lifers tend to be Catholic, since the Catholic Church is pro-life...

141 posted on 12/12/2001 12:02:19 PM PST by conservonator
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To: biblewonk
Juan Diego finally got in to see the Bishop with his bundle.

'tis very funny. Thank you for the laugh. :-)

SD

142 posted on 12/12/2001 12:03:15 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: wtc911
That comment came in response to a post that said Mary was eternally a virgin. Which I disagree with....As well as the entire emphasis that you place on her....by the way ...where is that scripture?
143 posted on 12/12/2001 12:04:38 PM PST by Delbert
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To: TexasRepublic
Your fortunate, I hope to see the Tilma one day. I think it looks like a painting because it is a painting. I'm glad you have faith, thats a great gift. All I ask is for people who have never heard about the image or the appearances to give it a look and decide for themselves. Many people are unaware that this event took place.

Best wishes.

144 posted on 12/12/2001 12:05:42 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: wtc911
Deuteronomy 5
vs6
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
7
"You shall have no other gods before [14] me.
8
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
10
but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
This includes the virgin mary , cactus cloth ponchos and cinnamon rolls.
145 posted on 12/12/2001 12:13:19 PM PST by Delbert
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To: biblewonk
Without feeling the need to be courteous themselves because they always have the "I'm defending my mother" attitude which lets them be hyper offended whenever they want.

When attacked by the discourteous fundamentalists, one tends to give as one gets.

We get our backs up when called Romanists, yet you insist on dropping your stink bombs on the Catholic threads.

That's fine. If you want to lob insults, expect to get them back.

146 posted on 12/12/2001 12:13:59 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: lavaroise
I understand that in San Jose, California they were considering, and may have already built, a statue to the Aztec god Quatzlcoatl in a public park.

Satan is strong right now but his time is running out.

147 posted on 12/12/2001 12:14:24 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: hunyb
Gee, I thought that 'praying to' was worship!

You thought wrong. Prayer means, "to ask", worship means "extreme devotion to or reverence of". Worship can include prayer but prayer in and of itself does not necessitate worship.

Happy to clear this up for you.

148 posted on 12/12/2001 12:16:06 PM PST by conservonator
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To: Delbert
That comment came in response to a post that said Mary was eternally a virgin.

Before this gets too out of hand, I just thought I'd point out that the original post (# 93) was a quote from Luther.
149 posted on 12/12/2001 12:19:44 PM PST by eastsider
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To: AnalogReigns
I'm well aware of Luther's alleged mariology. The key thing is he never claimed authority (and can therefore be wrong about things...), rather only pointed to our only full authority the scriptures--which never show the kind of Mary your Mexican story suggests... a temple for her? wow... One now, and then, has to choose the Bible, or the Roman church...

There is nothing "alleged" about Luthers devotion to Mary. And by the way, sola scriptura is un-Biblical.

150 posted on 12/12/2001 12:19:55 PM PST by conservonator
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