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Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531
Catholic History | 12 12 2001 | Cap'n Crunch

Posted on 12/12/2001 7:21:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch

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To: Delbert
"...the faithful lined up for miles to pay homage to Our Lady of the Cinnamon Roll...."

LOL! I'm going to be laughing at that one all day long.

51 posted on 12/12/2001 8:53:08 AM PST by CoolGuyVic
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To: sinkspur
Personally I think there are about as many true Catholics Christians as there true Protestant Christians. Your theology might be a little different than mine but the belief in Christ as Savior and Lord is there. Personally I would have more problems with some of the Protestant belief systems than I would Catholicism but I think that it has been the work of Satan himself to destroy the catholic(one true) church(not the denomination).

That being said I do have a question

I ardently desire that a temple be built here for me

The statement is a little troubling in that why should he build a temple for Mary? Again, not an attack, just a theological question

52 posted on 12/12/2001 8:54:29 AM PST by billbears
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Can any of you fellow Catholic FReepers put a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the post? I'm afraid I can't do it.

I'd be happy to help out ...


53 posted on 12/12/2001 8:54:58 AM PST by al_c
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To: realpatriot71
Ok, I see, if one points out that Mariology has no real Biblical or Theological basis, one is a bigot and catholic basher right?

Oh yes, that's exactly how it works. If you crawl on your belly in trying to be kind and patient you get squashed but if you just come out mention that one book, you know the dusty one, you are a bigot and a lurker who just lives to hate RC's.

54 posted on 12/12/2001 8:55:38 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: Delbert
...THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO THE FATHER AND THAT IS THROUGH THE SON...


One way to the Son is through the Mother.

55 posted on 12/12/2001 8:56:13 AM PST by It's me
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To: Own Drummer
"There is only one "Holy One", and that is Jesus Christ the Lord!"

Amen.

No comment on the rest.

56 posted on 12/12/2001 8:56:14 AM PST by Jn316
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Sorry, Cap'n, but this is the only photo of the image I could find -- all the others are paintings of it. I tried to make it larger, but it doesn't enlarge well. If you click here, you'll see a much larger version of it.



57 posted on 12/12/2001 9:00:07 AM PST by eastsider
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To: It's me
I don't need to talk to his mother to get to him..He told me to call on him anytime. Why call around when you can direct dial?
58 posted on 12/12/2001 9:00:07 AM PST by Delbert
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To: agrace
I see where the confusion is, yes, wherever Jesus is, His Mother is there also. For Catholics we know that if a Church is built Jesus will be recieved in Holy Communion and always present in the taberacle. In this appearance of Our Lady, she appears pregnant, in fact she is a living tabernacle.

In the Gospel, the angel appeared to Mary to announce the birth of Jesus, Mary brought Jesus to us when she said yes to God. Mary also brings Jesus to us when she appears, just like she did at Guadalupe. We can be like Elizabeth when Mary went to visit her, or like John the Baptist who was sanctified in Elizabeths womb when Mary spoke to her.

Read Our Lady's canticle in Luke.

59 posted on 12/12/2001 9:01:35 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Delbert
Do both!
60 posted on 12/12/2001 9:02:08 AM PST by It's me
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To: eastsider
whos the little ooompa looompa at the bottom , holding her up?
61 posted on 12/12/2001 9:02:30 AM PST by Delbert
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To: eastsider
Ah, there is my Queen!

Thank you, very much!

62 posted on 12/12/2001 9:03:13 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: billbears
I ardently desire that a temple be built here for me

I'm not going to attempt to parse the words of an apparition of Mary to some poor Mexican peasant.

The Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe honors Christ through His Mother.

The Mother always points to Her Son. Always.

The fact that some choose to develop an almost superstitious adoration of Mary is contrary to her wishes and her behavior in Scripture.

63 posted on 12/12/2001 9:03:54 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: philosofy123
"Even in today technology, that appears to be very possible, but certainly it can bring people to appreciate the Lord's presence. I am sure, he knows better ways to show himself in an unenbigous way. But he does not seem to be interested."

Jesus never appeared to me on TV or as a figure in the sky but I gave my life to Him. His Way is working just great. He IS interested

"A couple of thousands years ago, he showed up briefly, and now all these generations got nothing but blind faith in some historical story?"

He showed up long enough for me.

64 posted on 12/12/2001 9:04:25 AM PST by Jn316
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To: biblewonk
We don't agree on much at times, but at least we agree here. I don't mind if someone want to believe whatever they wanta to believe. I do, however, have problems with those who believe something and then try to pass it off as sound Christian theology, and then get pi$$ed when you point out that's it not sound, nor is it Biblical at all. If you cannot take the heat, get out of the kitchen, no?
65 posted on 12/12/2001 9:06:26 AM PST by realpatriot71
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To: al_c
Thanks al c!

I never tire of seeing Our Lady. The Aztecs viewed this miraculous image as an instant catechism. They said that she was greater than the moon because she was standing on the moon, greater than the sun because the sun was at her back. Greater than the stars because the stars were on her clothing, yet she cannot be God because she is praying. She has three sets of fingers together and one set seperated, indicating the Trinity. She has a small crucifix broach on her neck. It appears that the Holy Spirit is over her face in the form of a Dove.

66 posted on 12/12/2001 9:08:42 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Delbert
That would be St. Michael the Archangel.
67 posted on 12/12/2001 9:10:21 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Delbert
The cherub and the moon were later human additions. One of the wonderful things about the image is that it is a composite image. The underlying image of Mary floats above the coarse fabric of the tilma like a photographic emulsion, and science cannot determine how the image was formed -- i.e., no brush strokes or the like. On the other hand, the stars, the crown, the cherub and other details were added over the years by the Aztecs and Spanish-Americans.

I'm still looking for a site that describes the infrared studies made of the image.
68 posted on 12/12/2001 9:11:35 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Thank the Lord that at that time, 1531, Luther had set much of the Church to right in Germany and Calvin was called to Geneva.

Praise God He's saved us from such blasphemous worship of Mary.

69 posted on 12/12/2001 9:11:36 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Our Lady of Guadalupe, patroness of the unborn, pray for us.
70 posted on 12/12/2001 9:12:43 AM PST by eastsider
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To: realpatriot71
We don't agree on much at times, but at least we agree here.

I wish I could remember what we disagree about.

I don't mind if someone want to believe whatever they wanta to believe. I do, however, have problems with those who believe something and then try to pass it off as sound Christian theology, and then get pi$$ed when you point out that's it not sound, nor is it Biblical at all.

The other thing they do is post the non-sense knowing that it will get comments, because they want the comments and debate, then they pretent to be all offended. In that offense they hope to maintain some moral high ground while treading a doctrinal lowground. And the beat goes on and on.

If you cannot take the heat, get out of the kitchen, no?

Absolutely! And the FR is definitely the kitchen.

71 posted on 12/12/2001 9:13:48 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: Cap'n Crunch; Antoninus; BeforeISleep; Betteboop; Black Agnes; Cagey; clikker; ConservativeNJdad...
Tradition, Family and Property/America Needs Fatima

On the home page click on "America Needs Fatima"

Then click on "Anti-Blasphemy Center" then "To take a closer look at some past Anti-Blasphemy Protests"

You will see a horrific look at what a Museum in New Mexico did to desecrate Our Lady of Guadalupe. Sing up and get the flyers which contain 2 pre-printed post cards to mail in protest to the museum.

Our Lady of Guadalupe Insulted

This Isn't Just Any Blasphemy!

Just when blasphemy is withdrawn from one place, it rears its ugly head in another. This time in New Mexico.

The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) and its America Needs Fatima affiliate campaign had just finished a successful rally of reparation and protest at the Brooklyn Museum of Art. The controversy centered around two portrayals of Jesus Christ that were finally taken off display. Press reports described them as a photo of a nude woman standing in Jesus' place at the Last Supper and another of a topless woman on a cross.

Now, the American TFP and America Needs Fatima's anti-blasphemy network is opposing another offense.

There is no such thing as an ordinary blasphemy since all blasphemy is by definition an extremely serious offense against God. However, Alma Lopez's "Our Lady" exhibit at the Museum of International Folk Art in Santa Fe, New Mexico goes to new extremes. Press reports describe the exhibit as a computer collage portraying a bikini-clad Virgin of Guadalupe, held aloft by a topless woman-angel.

A Special Devotion to Our Lady

Our Lady of Guadalupe is full of significance. The word Guadalupe was actually a Spanish mistranslation of the local Aztec dialect word, Coatlaxopeuh, which means "one who crushes the serpents." Within six years of this apparition, six million Aztecs had converted to Catholicism. The cloth where Our Lady's image appears, shows her as the God-bearer - she is pregnant with her Divine Son.

What makes this exhibit especially offensive is the fact that the Virgin of Guadalupe is officially the Patroness of all the Americas. She is the powerful intercessor cherished and loved by the Mexican people. Since she is shown as a mother with child, she is also considered protector of the unborn.

"This isn't just any blasphemy," claims Mr. Robert Ritchie, campaign coordinator. "It targets Our Lady in an invocation that is so dear to Catholics, Americans, and those who fight abortion. The 'artist' could not have picked a more cherished image of Our Lady to deform."

Need to Oppose Blasphemy

For these very reasons, the TFP's anti-blasphemy network is mounting a peaceful and legal campaign to oppose this latest exhibit called Cyber Arte: Where Tradition Meets Technology, where the offensive portrayal appears. As always, all violence is strictly forbidden in this protest.

Protesting is the only way to prevent more blasphemy. Just because this exhibit follows closely behind the Brooklyn exhibit is no reason to remain silent. In fact, public pressure recently forced officials at Kennedy airport to cover an unclothed Christ painted on a mural there. Email protests to Yahoo! led that company to abandon plans to market pornography directly on its search engine site.

Grassroots action can be extremely effective and Catholics - especially those devoted to the Blessed Mother - must come to her defense when so vilely attacked. Many local faithful have already staged protests at the museum in Santa Fe and voiced their objections. Now is the time to join with them.

To remain silent and indifferent only encourages the promoters of blasphemy to shamefully peddle their agenda. The American TFP campaign is well underway and includes Enough is Enough! protest postcard fliers, email protests, and a future rally of public reparation. Campaign participants are also encouraged to download a true picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe and spread this image to family and friends.

Be a part of this historic campaign today! Here is what you can do!

1. Pray for the success of this campaign. 2. To download a true picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe,Click Here

3. To order your FREE Enough is Enough! protest fliers, Click Here

4. Resend this special email message to your family and friends. 5. Send a special INSTANT email message to the Museum of International Folk Art by By Clicking Here

6. Write, fax or call the museum at: The Museum of International Folk Art, P.O. Box 2087, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87504-2087. Phone: (505) 476-1200, Fax:(505) 476-1300. Museum of International Folk Art

72 posted on 12/12/2001 9:14:25 AM PST by Coleus
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To: Jn316
Ever hear the term "Doubting Thomas." Jesus' own disciple didnt even believe until he probed the nail marks in His hands and feet and put his hand into Our Lord's side.

There are still doubting Thomas's today. This helps our faith. Jesus said that he would never leave us and appeared many times after His death. So, he has also appeared throughout history to many saints. What is wrong with Him sending an ambassador, His own Mother? Do you think he could not do it? Would not allow it?

Have you ever studied it for yourself?

73 posted on 12/12/2001 9:15:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: AnalogReigns
You'd probably stop breathing if you had any idea of the extent of Luther's Marian devotion.
74 posted on 12/12/2001 9:16:52 AM PST by eastsider
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To: AnalogReigns
Um, you better check into Luther's ideas on Mary, he was apparently rather devoted to her.
75 posted on 12/12/2001 9:17:37 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Thy Life's A Miracle. Speak yet again
Rev. Robin Landerman Zucker
UU Church of Reading
December 17, 200
If we were to define a "miracle" in classical terms we'd likely say that it is an event which cannot be explained by the laws of nature and which some would attribute to divine intervention. A breach of regularity in the functioning of the world. On the other hand, the Christian theologian Augustine remarked that "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but in contradiction to what we know about nature."
Miracles are heralded and hyped with increasing frequency throughout our popular culture, including a plethora of websites. Many of these miracles are the slightly suspect stepchildren of the incident at Lourdes in 1858, when a young girl with healing powers named Bernadette was declared a saint. Thousands still travel to Lourdes and India, the shrine of Fatima and other well-known miraculous sites around the world in a quest for healing. The current tabloid miracle Meccas send up some troubling red flag for me. Many of them just seem ludicrous. Sadly, they also replace the sense of awe that miracles once embodied with a bizarre banality.
For example, an image of the Virgin Mary supposedly appeared on the rear fender of a Mr. Dario Mendoza's 1981 Chevrolet Camero in Elsa, Texas. Even after washing his car, the image grew larger, causing people to flock there to pray at the blessed bumper. His car appropriated by round-the-clock supplicants, the man had to resort to hitchhiking to work! Hundreds of people made a pilgrimage to a landscape painting purchased at an Oregon yard sale that was believed to harbor a living image of Our Lady of Guadeloupe. Holy apparitions are said to appear in flour tortillas, forkfuls of spaghetti, and in the bark of New Jersey blue spruce trees.
My personal favorite is the so-called Nun Bun, a cinnamon roll allegedly bearing the likeness of Mother Theresa which was discovered in a Nashville Bongo Java coffee shop. "I was horrified because I almost ate this religious piece of dough," confessed Ryan Finney, the employee who discovered the pious pastry. The bun has been the subject of a nine-minute documentary film, showed up on Leno and Letterman, and was eventually purchased for some obscene sum of money! The Nun Bun now resides in a freezer. The Rev. James Gill, a priest and psychiatrist who helps the Catholic church investigate folk miracles, views the majority of these claims as "either outright hoaxes or a pathetic bid for attention by the emotionally imbalanced or religiously confused." What's all of this about anyway? The phenomenon seems to point to a collective yearning for the sacred that is so great, a hunger for meaning that is so unmet, and a disenchantment with mere rationalism that is so profound that some folks resort to exalting pastries and paintings. It suggests to me that while we keep busy trying to locate the miraculous outside of nature, separate from ourselves, and beyond our everyday existence, we end up missing evidence of the Holy and the magical in "every cubic inch of space" as Walt Whitman put it. And it begs the question: Is life itself the miracle we overlook or undervalue while we're gazing hopefully into fenders?
76 posted on 12/12/2001 9:18:03 AM PST by Delbert
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To: biblewonk
The other thing they do is post the non-sense knowing that it will get comments,

And you and your cohorts willingly oblige with insults and ridicule.

.. because they want the comments and debate, then they pretent to be all offended.

No. "They" want other Catholics to comment, and non-Catholics to at least be courteous in their comments.

77 posted on 12/12/2001 9:22:06 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Oh, just like they hated Jesus without cause, they hate Our Lady without cause

Personally, I don't hate Mary. I love Mary. I hate what's been done to her name and in her name.

By the way -- and I'm sure you RCs have an answer for this one -- if she was sinless, why did she say her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior (Luke 1:47)? Someone who's sinless doesn't need a Savior.

78 posted on 12/12/2001 9:22:12 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Last year the Virgin Mary appeared in a window in New Jersey and hundreds flocked there. Then they cleaned the window.
79 posted on 12/12/2001 9:25:05 AM PST by sakic
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Comment #80 Removed by Moderator

I read this once (can't remember where) and have always thought of it when I see a full moon:

Mary can be compared to the moon.
The moon is beautiful and it is radiant. The world is illuminated by it's light.
Mary is beautiful and radiant and the world is illuminated by her beauty and light.
The Virgin Mary, like the moon, radiates not her own light but, she reflects light from the Son (moon/sun).

Our Lady does not stand alone but always with her Son.

81 posted on 12/12/2001 9:25:28 AM PST by It's me
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To: Delbert
Interesting post, but irrelevant to the authenticity of the image in question.
82 posted on 12/12/2001 9:26:19 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Coleus
Thank you for the links and the information. There certainly is a vigorous spiritual battle going on.
83 posted on 12/12/2001 9:26:27 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: sakic
So what youre saying is that Windex is a multi purpose household cleaner...Cleans windows and removes apparitions? Very cool.... : )
84 posted on 12/12/2001 9:26:51 AM PST by Delbert
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To: sean327
Gee, I thought that 'praying to' was worship!

NO ONE cometh unto the Father but by ME! (spoken by JESUS!) praying to anyone else is Idolatry.....plain and simple!

85 posted on 12/12/2001 9:26:57 AM PST by hunyb
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To: eastsider
you and capn crunch are being good sports. This is a fun discussion. There are so many paths...that lead to many doors..but which door leads to eternal salvation and life with christ? perhaps we will all find out one at a time as we each die...
86 posted on 12/12/2001 9:30:37 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Cap'n Crunch; eastsider
I'm well aware of Luther's alleged mariology. The key thing is he never claimed authority (and can therefore be wrong about things...), rather only pointed to our only full authority the scriptures--which never show the kind of Mary your Mexican story suggests... a temple for her? wow... One now, and then, has to choose the Bible, or the Roman church...
87 posted on 12/12/2001 9:31:15 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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Comment #88 Removed by Moderator

To: newgeezer
By the way -- and I'm sure you RCs have an answer for this one -- if she was sinless, why did she say her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior (Luke 1:47)? Someone who's sinless doesn't need a Savior.

Amen. The way that Mary is elevated is an insult to Jesus - the same Jesus who never called her 'mother'.

89 posted on 12/12/2001 9:33:57 AM PST by fishtank
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To: hunyb
Gee, I thought that 'praying to' was worship!

Te verb to pray enjoys a variety of meanings, two of which are immediately relevant: (1) to utter or address a reverent petition to God; and (2) to utter a fervent request to someone. I urge you to read the dictionary and to remember that expressions like praying to Mary and praying to the saints have been around a very long time. We don't use such expressions colloquially today, although lawyers still pray when they petition the court.
90 posted on 12/12/2001 9:34:29 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Delbert
The Church investigates apparitions. There have been apparitions of Christ, His Mother and numerous saints. Thee are still saints who's bodies are incorrupt.

The Church then makes a pronouncement. If the apparition is of a supernatural origin it is told to the people that it is 'worthy of belief.' One is free to believe or not. We are not mandated to believe in any apparitions. However the overwhelming (in my mind) evidence for many of these apparitions convinces me.

Think of this also. What is a better way for the devil to have people think all this is kooky? Have people believe they are seeing something when in fact they are not. The devil as you are aware, is a "false coiner", a counterfiter. After and during every appartion that I've read about, satan tries to lure the people away with falsehood and his own trickery. Kind of like Slick Willie, smoke and mirrors to dispense with the truth.

91 posted on 12/12/2001 9:35:18 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: newgeezer
Last one for me, newgeezer. Obviously, we aren't going to mend the schism in the Church in this thread, and I gotta get back to work.

You wrote:

The point remains: If you dare call anyone's religious belief -- an apparition, triskaidekaphobia, idol worship, voodoo, whathaveyou -- a "superstition," TonyInOhio brands you a "bigot."

For what purpose would someone even use the term "superstition", newgeezer, if not to slur or demean the faith of the original poster?

The point is this, rather - I'll not call your beliefs superstition, and you do the same regarding mine. Then, we can go back to fighting liberals instead of one another.

92 posted on 12/12/2001 9:35:24 AM PST by TonyInOhio
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Thank you for the lovely article about Mary, Our Mother.

I have read many of the posts, and was disappointed that so many were felt the need to ridicule, denounce, and hurt fellow Christians with sometimes mean and spiteful words. I understand that most Protestant Christians do not understand the role of Mary and the saints in the Catholic Church and that they have been misguided into believing that we worship Mary, pray TO saints, etc.,etc.

I hope that everyone will pray for civilty and peace on Free Republic and realize that we are all children of God, that all Christians believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and that we are united in more than we are divided.

Protestant Reformers, that many of non-Catholic Christians look to for justification, also believed in the Divine Motherhood of Mary:

German reformer Martin Luther's (1483-1546) writings often address the subject of Mary: On the Divine Motherhood of Mary, he wrote In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such great good things were given her that no one can grasp them. ... Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 7, p. 572.)

Luther, true to Catholic tradition, wrote on the Virginity of Mary: It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

I hope and pray that there will be more kind words and less hostility when Christians -- Catholic and Protestant -- discuss Our Lord and our faith.

God bless.

93 posted on 12/12/2001 9:37:32 AM PST by Gophack
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To: Delbert
you and capn crunch are being good sports. This is a fun discussion.

This discussion has been going on for years on this forum. Glad you're enjoying it, and welcome to FR.
94 posted on 12/12/2001 9:37:49 AM PST by eastsider
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To: fishtank; newgeezer
By the way -- and I'm sure you RCs have an answer for this one -- if she was sinless, why did she say her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior (Luke 1:47)? Someone who's sinless doesn't need a Savior.

Amen. The way that Mary is elevated is an insult to Jesus - the same Jesus who never called her 'mother'.

She was saved before she was born. She was knit before she was in her mother's womb.

95 posted on 12/12/2001 9:44:35 AM PST by grammarman
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To: hunyb
No wonder Jesus referred to us as stubborn and stiff necked.

This is one thing I figured would happen, many doing the "ostrich" or the "parrot", sticking their heads in the sand or parroting the same tired old arguments.

Without checking the image for themselves.

Read about it for yourselves, then make up your minds. Investigate for yourself.

96 posted on 12/12/2001 9:44:51 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Gophack
>>It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin.
She was a virgin when Christ was born....this is true....but afterwards....I'm pretty sure Joseph would disagree on this point. Joseph and Mary had some kiddos after Jesus and that requires some non-virginal relations.
97 posted on 12/12/2001 9:45:38 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Cap'n Crunch
what image are you referring to? i may have missed something on this thread...
98 posted on 12/12/2001 9:47:09 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Delbert
Have I got a thread for you. Scroll to the bottom and click "last" to hop on the train.
99 posted on 12/12/2001 9:49:45 AM PST by eastsider
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To: eastsider
11,178 posts? I better pack a lunch...thats a lot of thread...
100 posted on 12/12/2001 9:53:54 AM PST by Delbert
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