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Calico: A 200,000-year Old Site In The Americas?
ASA On Line ^ | unknown

Posted on 12/17/2001 2:22:22 PM PST by blam

Calico: A 200,000-year old site in the Americas?

New World archaeological sites inferred to be even slightly older than the 11.5 ka Clovis complexes have been controversial; so claims for a 200 ka site in North America have heretofore been treated with substantial disdain. But the acceptance of Monte Verde and Diring may soon change that.

The classic "ancient site" in the New World is "Calico," located in the Central Mojave Desert of California (Shlemon and Budinger, 1990). Two issues have dogged acceptance of Calico by mainstream archaeologists: (1) the authenticity of the artifacts; are they truly the product of human manufacture, or merely naturally produced "geofacts?" and (2) the obvious pre-Clovis age of the deposits (see, for example, lengthy discussions in Leakey and others, 1968; Haynes, 1973; Bryan, 1978; Taylor and Payen, 1975; Carter, 1980; Meighen, 1983; Patterson, 1983; and Budinger and Simpson, 1985).

Thought to be about 200 ka old, the deeply buried chert and chalcedony tools of Calico are usually dismissed as being artifacts. However, if shown to respected Old World archaeologists, many Calico assemblages are readily described as typical Paleolithic implements. Regardless, when told that the ancient tools come from the New World, these same archaeologists then often reject their original interpretation! So much for unbiased reasoning in science! Nevertheless, although it will take time, the pre-Clovis Monte Verde site in Chile and the 260 ka Diring site in Siberia may well provide a "stepping stone" for mainstream archaeological acceptance of the Calico site.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: acrossatlanticice; americas; archaeology; australia; bering; brucebradley; clovis; dennisstanford; dillehay; dna; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; mtdna; multiregionalism; neandertal; paleontology; preclovis; precolumbian; primates; replacement; solutreans
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To: investigateworld
JFK grad, 1967

BUHS 1964.

101 posted on 08/20/2006 3:30:49 PM PDT by TruthWillWin
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To: TruthWillWin
Ahhhh Riffian riff raff LOL
They are now the Aztecs (Truly impressed with your sign up date btw)
102 posted on 08/20/2006 4:17:59 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
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To: LucyT

Boat People?


103 posted on 10/19/2006 6:01:59 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

bump


104 posted on 01/13/2007 8:35:20 AM PST by stockpirate (John Kerry & FBI files ==> http://www.freerepublic.com/~stockpirate/)
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To: blam; et al
NOT JUST OLD SITES BUT OLD THREADS MAY HAVE SOME LIFE IN THEM YET!

Sorry to drag this discussion back from such fascinating remeniscences of Calico/Barstow/various-desert-community youths, but since the following is the article that made me google up calico ancient man site and find Free Republic in the first place, I thought it might be worth sharing.

It's from the front page that greeted me on Yahoo this morning, and since this thread is nearly as old as the Calico finds themselves, I'll both give the url (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070222/sc_nm/clovis_culture_dc_2)
and go ahead and slug in the whole article as well. Yes, I KNOW "Loose lips sink ships," so feel free to skim, especially if you're up to trifocals now. ;)

EXPERTS DOUBT CLOVIS PEOPLE WERE FIRST IN AMERICAS By Will Dunham -- Thu Feb 22, 6:42 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Clovis people, known for their distinctive spear points, likely were not the first humans in the Americas, according to research placing their presence as more recent than previously believed.

Using advanced radiocarbon dating techniques, researchers writing in the journal Science on Thursday said the Clovis people, hunters of large Ice Age animals like mammoths and mastodons, dated from about 13,100 to 12,900 years ago.

That would make the Clovis culture, known from artifacts discovered at various sites including the town of Clovis, New Mexico, both younger and shorter-lived than previously thought. Previous estimates had dated the culture to about 13,600 years ago. These people long had been seen as the first humans in the New World, but the new dates suggest their culture thrived at about the same time or after others also in the Americas.

Michael Waters, director of Texas A&M University's Center for the Study of the First Americans, called the research the final nail in the coffin of the so-called "Clovis first" theory of human origins in the New World.

Waters said he thinks the first people probably arrived in the Americas between 15,000 and 25,000 years ago."We've got to stop thinking about the peopling of the Americas as a singular event," Waters said in an interview. "And we have to start now thinking about the peopling of the Americas as a process, with people coming over here, probably arriving at different times, maybe taking different routes and coming from different places in northeast Asia."

Waters and co-author Thomas Stafford, a radiocarbon dating expert, tested samples from various Clovis archeological sites to try to get a more accurate accounting of their age. Technological advances enabled them to more precisely pinpoint dates for some Clovis sites excavated in North America.

The theory has been that the Clovis people first migrated out of northeast Asia across the Bering land bridge from Siberia into Alaska and traveled through a ice-free corridor into North America, populating that continent while their descendants journeyed into South America.

Asked who were the first people in the Americas if not the Clovis, Waters answered, "That's a good question."

"I think that's what we've got to work toward -- a new model for the peopling of the Americas, and I think we need to create a coherent model that's based on genetic data, geological evidence as well as archeological data."
105 posted on 02/23/2007 7:10:17 AM PST by ancientscribe (<i>-- and feeling MORE ancient all the time...</i>)
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To: ancientscribe
Journey Of Mankind
106 posted on 02/23/2007 8:53:44 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
How well I remember two things...

First, looking at a world map as a third grader and speculating how Africa and South America "just happened" to display such a perfect fit.

Many years later, the disdain that greeted the theory of continental drift.

Fast forward a few decades...

There is no mind as closed as the "expert" who fails to have seen the obvious first.

107 posted on 02/23/2007 11:49:32 AM PST by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: Publius6961
"First, looking at a world map as a third grader and speculating how Africa and South America "just happened" to display such a perfect fit."

Yup. That 'drift' started 120 million years ago and continues (at the same rate as your fingernails grow) to this day.

108 posted on 02/23/2007 2:27:37 PM PST by blam
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(South Carolina) Fire Pit Dated To Over 50,000 Years Old (More)
AP | 11-18-2004 | Amy Geier Edgar
Posted on 11/19/2004 11:07:26 AM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1283899/posts


109 posted on 12/20/2007 11:19:45 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Tuesday, December 18, 2007___________________https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: ancientscribe; SunkenCiv
2008 bump.

I notice that 'ancientscribe' made the one post on FR at post #105 last year and never another. I didn't see it until just now.

110 posted on 02/14/2008 7:55:34 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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To: blam
"I notice that 'ancientscribe' made the one post on FR at post #105 last year and never another. I didn't see it until just now."

Never mind. I see now that I posted to #105, ahem.

111 posted on 02/14/2008 7:57:25 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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To: SunkenCiv
"this appears to be the oldest FR topic about Al Goodyear: "

Hmmm. I asked sarcasm to post this one because I hadn't yet learned how to post. I learned how to post articles, etc from folks on FR.

112 posted on 02/14/2008 8:41:12 PM PST by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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To: bruinbirdman
Actually, some of the structures were moved to Daggett about 1900. Then when Senator Clark put in his San Pedro - Los Angeles - Salt Lake Railroad, (Now part of Union Pacific) the rest of the structures went to the new town of OTIS, now Yermo, starting about 1907
113 posted on 02/14/2008 9:02:16 PM PST by investigateworld ( Abortion stops a beating heart.)
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To: blam

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are Blam, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

· Google · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology magazine · Biblical Archaeology Society ·
· Mirabilis · Texas AM Anthropology News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo ·
· History or Science & Nature Podcasts · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·


114 posted on 02/14/2008 11:34:31 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________Profile updated Sunday, February 10, 2008)
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To: blam

it’s amazing how the more we learn the less we know

and with so much science today being so politicized, it’s like shooting ducks in a barrel


115 posted on 02/14/2008 11:37:35 PM PST by wardaddy (Political Correctness is to Western Culture what the Aids virus is to the cake community)
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To: blam; ontap
Re: The classic "ancient site" in the New World is "Calico," located in the Central Mojave Desert of California (Shlemon and Budinger, 1990). Two issues have dogged acceptance of Calico by mainstream archaeologists: (1) the authenticity of the artifacts; are they truly the product of human manufacture, or merely naturally produced "geofacts?"...

Well, my eductaed guess... would be man made.

BTW blam, Your ASA On Line ^ (http://www.asa-online.org/library/fea_dating.html)link does not work

116 posted on 02/14/2008 11:55:55 PM PST by Bender2 ("I've got a twisted sense of humor, and everything amuses me." RAH Beyond this Horizon)
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Site Sheds Light on Human Arrival

Culture/Society News
Source: AP via Yahoo
Published: May 26, 2001
Posted on 05/27/2001 06:25:12 PDT by sarcasm

ALLENDALE, S.C. (AP) - Some chipped tools and stone flakes found on a hill above a remote and wooded stretch of the Savannah River may show humans arrived in America about 3,000 years earlier than first thought.

Researchers have generally accepted that the first humans came to America as primitive hunters from Asia 12,000 years ago. But the South Carolina finds are the latest evidence that the continent was inhabited 15,000 years ago, well before the end of the last Ice Age around 10,000 years ago, archaeologists say.

"It is now reasonable to think of humans living on this landscape perhaps 15,000 to 20,000 years ago," said University of South Carolina archaeologist Albert Goodyear, who is helping to excavate the site. "It's the dawn of a new chapter in what was already a good book."

Coupled with mounting evidence of early human activity from scattered locations including a gravel pit in Virginia, a cave in Pennsylvania and a bog in Chile, the stone tools excavated in South Carolina suggest that human populations were spread across both continents 15,000 years ago.

Last year, a University of Oklahoma archaeologist suggested some broken stone tools found in the northwestern part of the state could be at least 22,000 years old.

The sites are so far apart that the earliest visitors could only have arrived earlier than once thought, or reached the Americas by more than one route, some researches theorize.

Goodyear and his team of archaeologists first uncovered the tools three years ago along a section of the river in Allendale County owned by Clariant, a Swiss-based chemical company.

Microscopic analysis of the stone chips confirmed that they could only have been created by human activity. The area may have served as a sort of workshop, where prehistoric people made the implements they needed for working wood and scraping animal hides.


1 Posted on 05/27/2001 06:25:12 PDT by sarcasm
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117 posted on 09/17/2009 5:20:21 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: SunkenCiv

See post 112.


118 posted on 12/15/2010 3:00:19 PM PST by blam
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To: blam

:’) When visiting this one, that September ‘09 facsimile message took me by surprise, must have either had it in a file, or pulled it out of the Wayback Machine.


119 posted on 12/15/2010 4:15:42 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: blam; SunkenCiv; decimon

Some years ago I was talking with a woman archeologist in a bar. She told me about a site in California that was around 200 to 300,000 years old but was being rejected by the scientific establishment. I wonder whatever happened to that site.


120 posted on 02/08/2012 5:06:38 PM PST by gleeaikin
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To: blam; SunkenCiv; decimon

Some years ago I was talking with a woman archeologist in a bar. She told me about a site in California that was around 200 to 300,000 years old but was being rejected by the scientific establishment. I wonder whatever happened to that site.


121 posted on 02/08/2012 5:07:06 PM PST by gleeaikin
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To: gleeaikin
I don't know. George Carter was convinced it was this old.

His book, Earlier Than You Think is a good read.

"His geologist's background and unending curiosity allowed him to see evidence where others' untrained eyes saw only a few broken rocks. The book is filled with charming anecdotes about archaeological digs Carter has worked on and infuriating tales about how the establishment has sought to quiet him. Although he did not personally work on it, the Calico site in California is included for reference and is the only site in North America that famed archaeologist Dr. Louis Leakey supervised"

Carter got so pissed that archaeologists wouldn't listen to him that he got a (I believe) PhD in archaeology. Still they didn't listen.

122 posted on 02/08/2012 8:01:34 PM PST by blam
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To: gleeaikin; blam; SunkenCiv; decimon

“Forbidden Archeology” has a lot of info about stuff like that. Can’t cite anything ‘cause I’m too tired to go find the book and look stuff up. But it has a lot.


123 posted on 02/08/2012 8:02:41 PM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell)
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To: little jeremiah

I liked what I read of that book, but it’s enormous.

http://www.mcremo.com/museum.htm


124 posted on 02/09/2012 7:56:34 PM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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To: SunkenCiv

He published a sort of condensed version, the same basics but not so many footnotes and scholarly stuff; I think it’s called “The Hidden History of the Human Race” - I’m moving what I laughingly call my “office” so my books are upstairs right now.


125 posted on 02/09/2012 8:09:13 PM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell)
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To: little jeremiah

I think that one is around also, but, uh, can’t prove it. :’o


126 posted on 02/11/2012 6:08:54 AM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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To: blam

Wow, just found this from your link. That’s fascinating and if the 200K dating holds it certainly upends a lot of other ‘theories’.


127 posted on 05/03/2012 3:01:09 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD
"That’s fascinating and if the 200K dating holds it certainly upends a lot of other ‘theories’. "

Yes...we have much to learn.

I think big suprises are to be found in South America.

128 posted on 05/03/2012 3:31:25 PM PDT by blam
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To: 1010RD
"That’s fascinating and if the 200K dating holds it certainly upends a lot of other ‘theories’. "

Yes...we have much to learn.

I think big suprises are to be found in South America.

129 posted on 05/03/2012 3:31:47 PM PDT by blam
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


130 posted on 05/26/2013 5:04:55 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: blam

The more anceint a thng is the more interesting it tends to be. And “facts” tend to survive based upon how interesting they are rather than how true or provable they are.


131 posted on 05/26/2013 5:21:42 AM PDT by Theophilus (Not merely prolife, but prolific)
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To: Theophilus
Boy...You sure found an old one.

Happy Memorial Day.

132 posted on 05/26/2013 5:45:18 AM PDT by blam
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To: MillerCreek
Caucasian, "white" people can and do become quite "red" in skin color after prolonged exposure to the sun, particularly in the middle of North America. I've seen it happen to nearly all male Swedes, for instance, after they've farmed many years. knew a fellow on the fishing docks who was pale skinned with yellow head hair,p>When I was young I knew a fellow on the fishing docks who, in winter, was pale skinned with receding yellow hair big bushy yellow eyebrows and longish curly body hair, also yellow. He had prominent brow ridges and we all called him Apeman. In the summer after a couple of months on the Gulf in only a pair of shorts he was colored dark bronze red and all that hair was purest white. He was a strange looking fellow. He was a southern boy, of course, named Bobby Joe.
133 posted on 09/03/2013 2:50:10 PM PDT by ThanhPhero (Khách sang La Vang hanh huong tham vieng Maria)
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To: ThanhPhero; SunkenCiv
"He was a southern boy, of course, named Bobby Joe. "

My brother was a Southern boy too...named Billy Joe. He was an excellent line-backer.

134 posted on 02/27/2014 7:54:52 PM PST by blam
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To: blam

Just like there has been a revolution in paleontology during the last sixty years because we are learning what to look for and where, I think your non conforming archaeological finds are because we are now willing to look for them. Excellent posts.


135 posted on 12/04/2014 6:40:56 PM PST by JimSEA
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To: blam

I’ve been to Calico, Arizona. Famous ghost town.


136 posted on 12/04/2014 6:46:52 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: blam

I thought Monte Verde was in Chile ... is this a different one with the same name?

Or are you referring to a site off Cuba which was reportedly found by some Russian woman doing sonar readings some years back, and who claimed there were structures down 100 ftm or so with copper roofs?


137 posted on 12/08/2014 3:45:13 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: PIF
I didn't call the site off Cuba, Monte Verde.

There are two different sites covered...one in Cuba, which I can't find any info on, and the other in Chile, Tom Dillehay

138 posted on 12/08/2014 11:04:48 AM PST by blam (Jeff Sessions For President)
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To: blam

Sorry don’t mean to be argumentative.
You said:

Yup. Archaeology/anthropology in the Americas are already in revolt. Monte Verde broke the mold....and if the underwater site (2200 ft) off the coast of Cuba proves to be human, the flood gates are open. (World history will be rewritten)

Which I read as meaning a site in Cuba. Now as you have claified it: you were talking about two different sites.

The one in Cuba waters was featured on the old Art Bell Show and his Coast to Coast web site. There were some pictures and a blurb or two and there was some speculation, I believe, that the Mich. Upper Peninsula ancient copper mines had something to do with the site, but I never learned anything more. That’s all I know.

Have or do you subscribe to Ancient American? I did for a while - was some really interesting stuff printed.


139 posted on 12/08/2014 11:48:12 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: PIF
"Have or do you subscribe to Ancient American? I did for a while - was some really interesting stuff printed."

I did for a little while. They are guilty of faking things and then pretending to find them in ancient places,etc. It's all phony. They guy who owns/runs it changed his name because he is an ex-Nazi leader. Read here, Frank Collin

140 posted on 12/08/2014 10:34:01 PM PST by blam (Jeff Sessions For President)
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To: PIF
The latest (11 YO) posted on the Cuban site.

Update On Deep Water Megalithic Stones and Structures Near Western Cuba

141 posted on 12/08/2014 10:40:56 PM PST by blam (Jeff Sessions For President)
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To: blam
FWIW: Frank Collin is no longer there - AA seems to be run by the May family. Looking bck at the few issues I did purchace, May was the Publisher and Collin is nowhere to be found as Editor. This is the current list of people at AA: The Voice Of Alternative Viewpoints Wayne N. May - Publisher Lawrence Gallan - Editor Meg Vogel - Assistant Editor Roger Waller - Art Director Millie Price - Copy Editor Ephraim James - Production Mgr. Kristine May - Circulation Mgr. Roger A. Grawe - Fulfillment Mgr. Joshua K. May - Marketing Mgr. Wayne N. May - Advertising Mgr. Steven Braker - Staff Photographer Alexander Lukats - Staff Photographer Roger Waller - Webmaster Frank Joseph - Correspondent ....Advisors.... William Donato, Ma, President The Atlantis Organization Buena Park, California Andrew E. Rothovius The Gungywamp Society Milford, New Hampshire Glen De Vlaminck Ancient Artifact Preservation Society Marquette, Michigan Dr. James P. Scherz Ancient Earthworks Society Madison, Wisconsin Dr. John J.White, Iii Midwest Epigraphical Society Columbus, Ohio
142 posted on 12/09/2014 5:13:23 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: blam

Too bad the actual page is for subscribers and that the images posted into FR are inaccessible.


143 posted on 12/09/2014 5:14:29 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: blam; SunkenCiv; Fred Nerks; Coyoteman; All

I am really enjoying reading the comments from this 2001 FR post. I came to the GGG ping list 5 years later, and see I have missed a lot. I also get the impression that the quality of comments has deteriorated over time. An occasional joke line is fine, but comment after comment with no content, and the link becomes boring. What a shame.


144 posted on 02/23/2015 12:35:30 PM PST by gleeaikin
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To: gleeaikin

Sad, so many freepers who commented on that thread have been banned.

Here’s a link to one of my favourites:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1989265/posts


145 posted on 02/23/2015 1:28:40 PM PST by Fred Nerks
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To: gleeaikin
"I am really enjoying reading the comments from this 2001 FR post. I came to the GGG ping list 5 years later, and see I have missed a lot. I also get the impression that the quality of comments has deteriorated over time. An occasional joke line is fine, but comment after comment with no content, and the link becomes boring. What a shame."

YUP.

The very reason I don't post near as much as I once did. Some of the religious folks were pretty disruptive too.

146 posted on 02/23/2015 3:26:11 PM PST by blam (Jeff Sessions For President)
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To: Fred Nerks; blam; SunkenCiv; All

Why were so many of the PhDs and others banned? How did you avoid the same fate? Feel free to private message me if you don’t want to tell the world. I’ll be discrete.


147 posted on 02/24/2015 12:47:39 AM PST by gleeaikin
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To: gleeaikin

I really have no idea, I just went back through the thread and checked on the names, many have been banned, some haven’t posted for years = and I was never active enough to draw attention to myself...I guess.

Maybe when science and dogma conflict the result is annihilation?


148 posted on 02/24/2015 3:25:14 AM PST by Fred Nerks
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To: gleeaikin; Fred Nerks; SunkenCiv
There was a gradual escalation of the conflict between the science guys and the religious people and some of the science guys reached the 'tipping-point' and used the wrong language which caused Jim to ban them....this just inflamed the situation further and, more language, more banning,etc.

Many of the science guys just up and quit in support of those banned.

I was able to hold my tongue through all the fighting.

FYI, Jim had been ocassionally banning the serious religious disrupters to my science threads through all my posting history. One particularly persistent disrupter, FReeper 'f.Christian' was banned by Jim.
(I'm told) He went on a criticizing campaign against both me and Jim on other conservative sites. I seriously considering leaving FR too. So.....(Everybody Lost!)

149 posted on 02/24/2015 11:27:13 AM PST by blam (Jeff Sessions For President)
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To: blam; Fred Nerks; gleeaikin

I’m still finding bullet holes in the plaster from that one.

Mary Hopkin — Those Were The Days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3KEhWTnWvE


150 posted on 02/24/2015 11:52:25 AM PST by SunkenCiv (What do we want? REGIME CHANGE! When do we want it? NOW!)
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