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FYI
1 posted on 12/18/2001 7:05:45 AM PST by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd
bump
2 posted on 12/18/2001 7:12:39 AM PST by dubyagee
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To: shrinkermd
(Romans 1:20-22 NKJV) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

{21} because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

{22} Professing to be wise, they became fools,

3 posted on 12/18/2001 7:14:18 AM PST by Delta-Boudreaux
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To: shrinkermd
The universe is too complex, the conditions for life too exacting, to conclude that it could have developed in such a sophisticated way without help from some "external agent."

So who guided the development of this "external" agent. Geeze, you think a professor would see the problem is one of "first causes." He just adds a layer. A turtle on a turtle -- and calls the problem solved. Don't they have any deep thinkers in the religious advocacy field???

4 posted on 12/18/2001 7:14:43 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: shrinkermd
bump.
5 posted on 12/18/2001 7:15:40 AM PST by zoso82t
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To: shrinkermd
Many intelligent-design proponents believe there is a conspiracy to keep their ideas out of scientific circles.

Yeah, there really is a conspiracy -- to keep junk science out. Good on them. When ID can do better than quote scripture from the Bible, when it can present some sort of affirmative evidence, it'll make the grade.

Right now ID is just a retreat-in-force from pure reliance on Biblical revelation -- which has been laughed out of court for being so naively wrong. "I guess we better look for some evidence, ehy boys?"

6 posted on 12/18/2001 7:18:21 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: *crevo_list
Not again bump
7 posted on 12/18/2001 7:19:07 AM PST by Gladwin
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To: shrinkermd
"I don't think intelligent design is a science," says Bruce Alberts, president of the National Academy of Sciences. "It's a way of restating creationism in a different formulation."

And guesswork into how blobs of cells evolved over billions of years to become humans is science? If there are scientists out there who wish to use scientific means to explore the "theory" of creationism, why is their work not as "legitimate" as that of those who wish to prove evolution. If evolutionists weren't afraid of the outcome of this work, they would not give "intelligent design" theorists the time of day. I smell an agenda....

9 posted on 12/18/2001 7:21:14 AM PST by dubyagee
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To: shrinkermd
The treatment of Dembski at Baylor was shameful and reflects the intolerance of the evolutionist establishment to any competing ideas. The editor of the French encyclopaedia has called evolution "a fairy tale for adults." As taught, it is indeed full of gaping flaws, but it is held to by academia as tightly as any religion.
10 posted on 12/18/2001 7:23:19 AM PST by Malesherbes
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To: shrinkermd
The universe is too complex, the conditions for life too exacting, to conclude that it could have developed in such a sophisticated way without help from some "external agent."

If the universe is so complex as to have required an "external agent" for its development, I'm afraid to ask who helped the developer get to the position where he could develop a universe.

It seems like the developer would, in some respect, be more complex than the thing he developed. How did that come to be?
11 posted on 12/18/2001 7:25:31 AM PST by abandon
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To: shrinkermd
At Illinois's Wheaton College, a course for nonscience majors called "Origins" includes a discussion of intelligent design. Derrick A. Chignell, a chemistry professor, says that he and other science professors there tend to be more skeptical of the theory than are its advocates, but believe it raises important scientific and religious questions. "I've read the books, and I've been to the conferences, and I think it's intriguing," he says. "What I want to see is some science being done based on that paradigm that produces results that could not be produced by the Darwinian paradigm."

Mr. Miller also wonders why Mr. Behe, a member of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, has never presented his ideas at its annual conference, which is his right. "If I thought I had an idea that would completely revolutionize cell biology in the same way that Professor Behe thinks he has an idea that would revolutionize biochemistry," he says, "I would be talking about that idea at every single meeting of my peers I could possibly get to."

Mr. Behe responds that he prefers other venues. "I just don't think that large scientific meetings are effective forums for presenting these ideas," he says.

Ding Ding Ding! If ID is going to make it as a scientific theory, then it better damn well start acting like one. The avoidance of a scientific setting for debate of ID makes the proponents of the theory look like charlatans. According to the scientific method, a workable theory has to have some testable hypothesis that can be worked over via an experiment. Does ID have any testable hypothesis? To be BETTER than evolution, it has to have a workable tested theory that explains something better than evolution? Does it do that?

23 posted on 12/18/2001 7:36:22 AM PST by ThinkPlease
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To: shrinkermd
Evolution has been so thoroughly discredited at this point that you assume nobody is defending it because they believe in it anymore, and that they are defending it because they do not like the prospects of having to defend or explain some axpect of their lifestyles to God, St. Peter, Muhammed et. al.

To these people I say, you've still got a problem. The problem is that evolution, as a doctrine, is so overwhelmingly STUPID that, faced with a choice of wearing a sweatshirt with a scarlet letter A (Adulterer), F (Fornicator) or some such traditional device, or I (for IDIOT), you'd actually be better off sticking with one of the former choices because, as Clint Eastwood noted in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

God hates IDIOTS, too!

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record (despite the BS claims of talk.origins "crew" and others of their ilk) to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now: OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

1. It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could see or hear them, they wouldn't be witches...) The best example of that sort of logic in fact that there ever was was Michael O'Donahue's parody of the Connecticut Yankee (New York Yankee in King Arthur's Court) which showed Reggie looking for a low outside fastball and then getting beaned cold by a high inside one, the people feeling Reggie's wrist for pulse, and Reggie back in Camelot, where they had him bound hand and foot. Some guy was shouting "Damned if e ain't black from ead to foot, if that ain't witchcraft I never saw it!!!", everybody was yelling "Witchcraft Trial!, Witchcraft Trial!!", and they were building a scaffold. Reggie looks at King Arthur and says "Hey man, isn't that just a tad premature, I mean we haven't even had the TRIAL yet!", and Arthur replies "You don't seem to understand, son, the hanging IS the trial; if you survive that, that means you're a witch and we gotta burn ya!!!" Again, that's precisely the sort of logic which goes into Gould's variant of evolutionism, Punk-eek.

2. PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

3. PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

4. PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

5. For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.

The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:

The don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"

They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!

Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?

25 posted on 12/18/2001 7:39:26 AM PST by medved
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To: shrinkermd
I made up a similar article... Round Earth Theory Under Attack...

A biochemist and molecular biologist who knows nothing about Geology reserves time at the end of his course to advocate the flat earth theory.

"90% of my colleagues would diagree with me, but I find their ideas unpalatable, and most of my church membership agrees with me..." comments the renowned scientist. I like to teach what I like to think is true; I don't worry objectivity in science education.

The fact that a molecular biologist knows nothing about geology makes him uniquely qualified to criticize it. First, he is blissfully unaware of the strength of the ideas he opposes or of the irrefutable data supporting them. Second, none of the professionals in the field in question will waste their time responding.

A recent poll states that 45% percent of Americans, completely unaware of the substance of the issue, are willing to believe the flat earth theory. Armed with public approval and a lack of resistance from professionals in the field, the views of our merry professor from a backwater university is destined to make waves in web forums and chat rooms.

The earth is flat, the sun rotates around it, and Darwin was wrong. A Triple Crown for ignorance.

32 posted on 12/18/2001 7:53:02 AM PST by Axolotl
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To: shrinkermd
bump for later read
40 posted on 12/18/2001 8:17:03 AM PST by brooklin
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To: shrinkermd
Scientists worry that because intelligent-design advocates like to make their case in the popular press, on the campus lecture circuit, or through nonscientific disciplines, their ideas may gain credibility among academics who do not have a strong understanding of evolutionary theory.

"It's a non-starter in the scientific community," says Eugenie C. Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, which tracks the creationist movement. "But people in history, or social studies, or philosophy of science, who don't know that the science is bad, could very well be propagating this in the academic community. So there may be a lot of university graduates coming out of school thinking evolution is, quote, a theory in crisis."

About sums it up.

47 posted on 12/18/2001 8:31:46 AM PST by Junior
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To: shrinkermd
Mr. Behe responds that he prefers other venues. "I just don't think that large scientific meetings are effective forums for presenting these ideas," he says.

Makes sense, because these ideas aren't scientific.

60 posted on 12/18/2001 9:20:46 AM PST by cogitator
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To: Free the USA; GovernmentShrinker
FYI
66 posted on 12/18/2001 10:16:06 AM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: Fantasywriter
Ping!
69 posted on 12/18/2001 10:32:52 AM PST by Woahhs
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To: shrinkermd
Evolution under attack? It's dead.

It's just that no one's alerted the media.

70 posted on 12/18/2001 10:36:07 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: longshadow
bump two
100 posted on 12/18/2001 6:37:33 PM PST by ThinkPlease
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