Kosovo - list of Civilians murdered presumably by KLA in 1998

hoplite gave me the link | unknwn | Yugoslav Government

[vooch]

damn, somehow I nuked the relevant info in the above post.....the key bit of Demaci quote is as follows:

".....There are still murders occurring. They are committed by stubborn Albanians but, you know, more than half of the murdered people are Albanians. The Serbs are not the only ones who have been persecuted against. There is not one humanitarian organization that has not been looted even though they are protected and well secured. No one here can get a guarantee for anything because KFOR and UNMIK don't want to solve problems. We must do this ourselves by having everyone participate in the elections and giving legitimacy to the Parliament to assume power," said Demachi..........."

[Vojvodina]

Right, and YOU know who killed whom. I thought you cared about Albanians. You're confronted with a [highly revealing] list of the KLA-shot Albanians. The people on the list are DEAD. OK? Dead.

If you so much care about Albanians, why is it - in this case - so important who killed them? Yeah, they were shot by the KLA but I thought you "humanitarian warriors" cared about human life first and foremost. Guess I was wrong. [/sarcasm]

[vooch]

go for it !

[branicap]

It is very interesting how the worst bigots,always claim the high moral ground and pretend to be "objective and neutral"!

Will you Hoplite,please,tell me (being a superior authority on a country you know nothing about)how many people were killed in Yugoslav Wars so far???Krajina,Bosnia,Kosovo...Yugoslavia??

And,please,spare me your usual rudeness!Just answer my question.

And,yes,Serbs from Krajina were the first refugies in Yugoslav drama.It is a pure statististics and not my political agenda.

Bluester,list of the Albanians killed by Serbian Forces can not be published here because there is no space!Half a milion men killed, as was reported by NATO would destroyed this site!

[bluester]

Welcome back Branicap! And I wasn't talking only about Kosovo Albanians but those killed in Bosnia as well. I did't say half a million, but half of that number would apply to Bosnia. That is also pure statistics not my political agenda.

[Hoplite]

If you look at the statistics from the early 90's (or any period before the KLA existed), you'll notice people were living peacefully,

Fine, show your statistics.

I'll reply by showing that people were living peacefully in Croatia in 1990.

[Hoplite]

We're talking about Kosovo here.

If you don't have anything to add to the discussion, piss off.

[Hoplite]

We seem to have gotten off topic, vooch.

1,200 dead in 1998. So much for your 'more mayhem since KFOR took over theory'.

You lose.

[The Big Dog]

The onus of proof falls to you. In the early 90s, except for a few independence-minded extremists, most Albanians in Kosovo were happily living in peace. Do you deny that?

As for your Croatia comment, explain why that's relevent?

[Hoplite]

Of course I deny it.

I take it you're not familiar with the rioting that occurred in Kosovo when Milosevic de-Albanianized the government and the parallel government that the Albanians set up and ran all through the 1990's?

And if you're going to say things like "If you look at the statistics" and then hem and haw when asked to produce said statistics, you don't have any reason to bring up that 'evidence' in the first place.

The Croatia point being, Serbs and Croats were 'living happily' in Croatia just like Serbs and Albanians were 'living happily' in Kosovo.

[The Big Dog]

I'm afraid no matter what you say you can't convince me that conditions in Kosovo are better today than ten years ago. Ten years ago Kosovo was multi-ethnic. Now it's more than 95% Albanian, many civilians have been murdered, there is a child prostitution problem, a drug trafficking problem, a weapons traficking problem, and much more. None of this was happening ten years ago. Given some Albanians were upset because they didn't have independence, but at least thousands of people weren't fearing for their lives like today. If Kosovo is such a wonderful place to live then why have more than a hundred thousand people fled since 1999, and why are armed soldiers required to escort people to the grocery store and to school?

The level of violence started escalating in 1996 or so and then reached a peak in 1999 because of the fighting between terrorists and government troops. Then when the peacekeepers arrived the violence went down, but it's still not even close to where it was ten years ago. IMO Nato could be doing a lot more.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the terms to end the bombing, one of the agreements was to allow lightly-armed Serbian police back in Kosovo after 1 year. It's been more than 2 years and that hasn't happened yet. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

The Croatia point being, Serbs and Croats were 'living happily' in Croatia just like Serbs and Albanians were 'living happily' in Kosovo.

I know there were Serbs in Croatia prior to the breakup of SFRY. I still don't see how that relates to the situation in Kosovo. Are you implying the ethnic Serbs in Croatia weren't happy?

[Hoplite]

10 years ago Yugoslavia was disintegrating as a result of what Slobodan Milosevic had done in Kosovo - disenfranchising the majority population and resorting to brutal oppression to maintain order while he utilized Kosovo's and Vojvodina's votes in the Federal Government.

Kosovo was never the happy place you claim it to be in the 1990's.

Since Milosevic's removal from Kosovo, the overall level of violence has gone down, not up, and it continues to drop in each successive year. That this is such a bitter pill to swallow for our resident Serb Nationalists is the cause of many a thread, such as this one. Civil society will return to Kosovo, not immediately, granted, but it will return, because the majority of its residents will see their vested interest in doing so - ethno racism is a dead end street. It's just a matter of people figuring out that it's better to be gainfully employed alongside their neighbors rather than throwing rocks at them.

Look to Kosovo in 2008 for a before/after comparison with 1990. I know which way I'd bet right now as to which will be a better place for everybody.

I'm not sure how NATO could have protected the Serbs of Kosovo better, other than by employing more troops, but internal politics in NATO countries were an important factor in this, and the troops that went into Kosovo were all NATO countries wanted to or could spare. Not pretty, but there it is.

You can peruse the Milosevic-Ahtisaari agreement, UN Resolution 1244, and the MTA and you will not find a timetable for the return of Serb forces, so I'm not sure where you got '1 year' from.

The Serbs in Croatia were unhappy enough to form the RSK and go to war with their Croat neighbors.

That's indicative of people who were pretty unhappy, and like its counterpart in Kosovo, the leadership in Croatia wasn't doing much to reassure them it had their best interests in mind.

If nobody is interested in refuting the 1,200 number, I'm happy to discuss any of these issues with you.

[The Big Dog]

First of all, I've done a lot of research on Yugoslav politics and the breakup of the SFRY was not caused by Milosevic revoking Kosovo's autonomy. In fact, Milosevic was the one who wanted to keep Yugoslavia from breaking up.

The autonomy which Milosevic took away in 1989 was given to Kosovo in 1974 by Tito. From the Serbs' point of view, Tito had no right to give them that autonomy in the first place, so Milosevic did the right thing in 1989. Actually, Milosevic never revoked the autonomy, he just downgraded it to the status it held before 1974. But even according to Tito's new constituation in 1974, Kosovo was still not equal to the other republic, and did not have the authority to succede from Yugoslavia.

I keep hearing about 'brutal opression' and 'discrimination' but never anything specific. What rights exactly didn't the Albanians have that made them oppressed? They could go to the mosque, practice their religion, speak their language, just like any minority in any democratic country. They wanted unreasonable things such as government funded schools in Albanian, and the same level of autonomy as the other republics (which in turn would lead to succession from Yugoslavia). No country would allow that.

I really doubt this is about minority rights. Even if the Serbs gave the Albanians all the rights that they wanted, the Albanians would stll want independence. It's a no-win situation for the Serbs, no matter what they do, they lose. And you're right, civil society will return to Kosovo, but that will be because there will be no more Serbs left in Kosovo, and Kosovo will be either an independent country or part of Albania. So it might be a better place in 2008 for everybody, but that's because 'everbody' will include only Albanians.

Also, I'm certain I read somewhere that a small Serbian police presence would be allowed into Kosovo one year after the June 1999 agreement, but I can't seem to find that anywhere.

[Hoplite]

When he revoked their autonomy, did Milosevic remove Vojvodina's and Kosovo's representatives to the Federal Government, or did he merely fill them with his followers, in essence hijacking those positions and giving the Serbs a plurality of votes in the increasingly nationalistic environment?

Slobo wanted Serboslavia, not Yugoslavia.

[vooch]

1,200 dead in 1998

indeed there may have been 1,200 killed in KosMet in 1998, but that was in the midsts of a KLA paramilitary fight. Out of those 1200 people killed, only some 250-350 were civilians. Civilians killed is the key comparasion.

It shows the bankruptcy of the Humanitarian Warriors case that their claims of a more safe and secure evironment must include KLA & MUP combatants to distort the question.

Sure, life is much safer for KLA paramilitaries now that Kfor is in charge, but life for the ordinary KosMet civilian be they Albanian, Serbian, Gorani, Roma, Turk, Circassian, or Greek is much worse......the civilian murder rate has risen FOURFOLD since Kfor took over.

Hoplite, in the 2 years since Kfor took control 1,100 civilians were murdered and 1,300 'disappeared' presumed dead. That is a rough rate of 1,200 per year under Kfor's watch. And you tell us that in 1998, some 1,200 died in KosMet under the Yugoslav government watch. Somehow, even the self serving Humanitarian Warrior numbers even look horrific 1200 vs. 1200

not a enterprise one should be proud of.

[Hoplite]

You're not worth my time.

Piss off.

[vooch]

Sure, life is much safer for KLA paramilitaries now that Kfor is in charge, but life for the ordinary KosMet civilian be they Albanian, Serbian, Gorani, Roma, Turk, Circassian, or Greek is much worse......the civilian murder rate has risen FOURFOLD since Kfor took over.

sure is hard to defend the KLA mujhadeen in the face of that grim statistic isn't it Hoplite ? guess it is better for you to stop trying to defend them and admit Clinton's War was a fiasco

[Hoplite]

GIGO.

[vooch]

here is what Adem Demaci says about your wonderous Kfor occupation:

".....There are still murders occurring. They are committed by stubborn Albanians but, you know, more than half of the murdered people are Albanians. The Serbs are not the only ones who have been persecuted against. There is not one humanitarian organization that has not been looted even though they are protected and well secured. No one here can get a guarantee for anything because KFOR and UNMIK don't want to solve problems. We must do this ourselves by having everyone participate in the elections and giving legitimacy to the Parliament to assume power," said Demachi..........."

[vooch]

thought you may wish to add your thoughts and any info you may have to this thread.