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Archaeologists Find Celts in Unlikely Spot: Central Turkey (Ellas Go Bragh!?)
The New York Times ^ | December 25, 2001 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 12/25/2001 12:06:25 PM PST by Pericles

December 25, 2001

Archaeologists Find Celts in Unlikely Spot: Central Turkey

In the remains of Galatian Gordion in Turkey, archaeologists found a workshop, top, that probably was built in the early third century B.C. A crudely sculptured face, center, with stylistic similarities to heads from Europe attributed to the Celts, was discovered, as were clay loom weights used in weaving. The weights had fallen, along with a pot.

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

n storybook histories, the ancient city of Gordion is remembered only as the seat of King Midas, he of the golden touch, and the place where Alexander the Great struck a famous blow in legend and metaphor. Challenged to separate the strands of an impossible knot, the Gordion knot, the conqueror cut through the problem, in the manner of conquerors, with one authoritative swing of his sword.

After Midas and Alexander, Gordion languished on the fringes of history, and until recently archaeologists had taken little notice of its Celtic past. Yes, European Celts — the Gauls of Roman times and the forerunners of Bretons, Welsh, Irish and highland Scots — once migrated as far east as what is now central Turkey and settled in and around post-Alexander Gordion, beginning in the early third century B.C.

Archaeologists say they have now excavated artifacts and architectural remains dispelling any lingering doubt that the Celts were indeed there, as a few classical texts had recorded in passing. These people called themselves Galatai, a Celtic name for tribal warriors, and became known to the Romans as Galatians. Their Christianized descendants were advised by the apostle Paul, in the New Testament, that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

The remains of Galatian Gordion, archaeologists conclude, reveal that the Celts, although they came as mercenary soldiers, bringing along their wives and children, were looking beyond warfare and pillage. They put down deep roots, revived Gordion and created an ambitious, thriving society.

Above ruins of ordinary mud-brick houses, they erected a monumental public building of cut-stone blocks that was surrounded by a massive stone wall. Inside a workshop were clay loom weights used in weaving, a possible clue to Celtic influence. Not far away, excavators found a stone sculpture of a human with faces in two directions, which replicates double-faced or "Janus" figures from Celtic sites in central Europe.

But the most decisive discovery was a grisly one: clusters of broken- necked skeletons and decapitated heads of children and adults, some of them mixed with animal bones. Ancient Celts had a reputation for ritual human sacrifice, but not the contemporary Greeks and Romans or any of the indigenous people of Anatolia, the central plateau region of Turkey.

In the current issue of Archaeology, a magazine of the Archaeological Institute of America, Dr. Mary M. Voigt of the College of William and Mary, a leader of the excavations, and her colleagues wrote, "Such practices are well known from Celtic sites in Europe and are now documented for Anatolian Celts as well."

Dr. Ronald Hicks, an archaeologist and specialist in Celtic prehistory at Ball State University in Muncie, Ind., agreed that this appeared to be the strongest evidence yet for a permanent Celtic presence in Gordion.

"That certainly has the Celtic look," said Dr. Hicks, who is not involved in the project. "One of the Roman complaints about the Celts was that they still practiced human sacrifice. They said the Gauls were known for lopping off heads of men in battle, tying them to their belts and bringing them back to display for all their friends at home."

Dr. Oscar White Muscarella, an archaeologist at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, called the discoveries "an extraordinary accomplishment." For the first time, he said, "we are able to see and hold in our hands what the Galatians did and can now talk about Galatians in Anatolia."

The excavations of Galatian Gordion are part of research at the site, 60 miles southwest of Ankara, being led by the University of Pennsylvania Museum in conjunction with the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. Dr. Voigt's co-authors of the magazine report are Jeremiah R. Dandoy, a retired businessman who has become a zooarchaeologist, and Page Selinsky, a doctoral candidate in anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania.

Gordion's Galatian period had been neglected, Dr. Voigt explained in an interview, because archaeologists had their eyes on bigger prizes. They dug through the layers of Galatian ruins to get to the city as it was in Alexander's time, 332 B.C., and the even earlier city of Midas, ruler of Phrygia, probably in the eighth century B.C.

Dr. Voigt said archaeologists were also put off by the seeming impossibility of finding anything distinctive to confirm the Galatian presence in the city. How do you establish the ethnicity of an ancient population, especially if the people were warriors who traveled light, carrying with them little of their own material culture, and lived off the land?

"Historically, we knew they were at Gordion," Dr. Voigt said, "but we didn't know anything definitive about their way of life."

In one of the few sketchy accounts, the Roman historian Livy noted that a king in Anatolia hired Celts as mercenaries to re-enforce his own army. They arrived in 278 B.C., 20,000 of them, including provisioners and merchants as well as their families, in a caravan of 2,000 baggage wagons. But by this time the Celts had become somewhat Hellenized.

For an unknown number of years since leaving their homeland, somewhere in central Europe near the headwaters of the Danube, the Celts had passed through the Balkans and paused in Greece to sack Delphi. In battle, they stood naked before the foe. Along the way, they learned Greek and inscribed some of their possessions in that language. Their ceramics and other household wares were in the Greek style.

"It used to be hard to detect the Galatians at Gordion," said Dr. Keith DeVries, a University of Pennsylvania archaeologist and former director of the Gordion excavations. "There was not a single artifact that was absolutely demonstrable as Celtic. Some began to think the literary sources must be misleading us."

Livy described Galatian Gordion as a trading center and a fortified settlement in the early second century B.C., a judgment now supported by archaeologists. Artifacts like a small bone lion, probably used as inlay, suggested the Galatians enjoyed some affluence. Traces of a few substantial buildings — with tile roofs, many rooms, paved floors, stone benches and generous courtyards — seemed to attest to a city with a social and political hierarchy. This was more than a simple crossroads farming settlement, as some scholars once suspected.

A Roman army destroyed much of the city in 189 B.C., but excavations showed that it was soon rebuilt and eventually became part of the Roman province of Galatia, though with a continuing Celtic imprint.

In more than a decade of meticulous excavations, archaeologists were struck by the juxtaposition of Greek and Celtic customs in Gordion. Ruins of a workshop yielded figurines of Greek deities presumably used in household rituals. Nearby, in the lower town, five skeletons were strewn across the ground of what had been an outdoor area, and another four had been thrown into a deep pit.

Even though the date of the buried skeletons is in some doubt, Dr. Voigt's team said, "their treatment is undoubtedly linked to ritual practices that began in third-century Gordion and would represent continuity of Celtic traditions" after the town became part of a Roman province.

Nearly all these people appeared to have met violent ends, with strangulation by hanging or garroting the most usual cause. Several had broken necks and spines. A woman, probably 30 to 45 years old, had a fractured skull, and was also strangled. Below her lay the bones of a younger woman, who seems to have been done in by the two heavy grinding stones weighing down her upper body. In the same pit, the bones of two young children were mixed in an apparently deliberate way. Among other switches, the jaw of an older child was placed with the cranium of the younger one.

Archaeologists concluded that all of these people were presumably "sacrificed." They might have been war captives. Traces of wood in the base of a skull suggested that a person's severed head had been mounted on a pole for display. Some victims might have been killed as part of Celtic divination rituals. Texts recount that Celtic religious leaders, the druids, were prophets who killed humans in order to discern the future as revealed by the dying victims' movements.

In another part of the lower town, archaeologists came upon the largest bone deposit, holding more than 2,000 animal bones and those of a few dismembered humans. Three individuals — a man of about 40, a woman of 35 and a child under 8 — might have been a family. This might have been the scene of a feast associated with the Celtic celebration of Samhain, around Nov. 1. Based on their age at death, the animals were probably slaughtered in the fall, the time for culling herds before winter. Some humans could also have been cooked for the feast.

"It may not be too far a stretch to associate Bone Cluster 3 with this Celtic festival, which we still celebrate as Halloween," Dr. Voigt and her colleagues wrote.

The discoveries at Gordion have already contributed to changes in views of Galatian culture in Asia Minor. The Celts as politically and socially primitive barbarians who lived on raids and plundering had considerable basis in fact, which had been stressed in Greek and Roman texts. But at least in Anatolia, the new excavations suggest, the Celts succeeded in settling down, marshaling resources and labor for building and operating a prospering city — not the behavior of primitives.

In an article last year in the British journal Anatolian Studies, English and Turkish scholars said the Galatian communities established in the third century B.C. constituted "a new, significant and increasingly important geopolitical entity within Asia Minor" and this "can hardly be attributed to a marginal, and politically, socially and economically unsophisticated people." On the contrary, they wrote: "The fact that their polities survived to be incorporated into the Roman empire would indicate the existence of highly developed social structures bound together by shared value systems. The European Galatians successfully adapted to their new environment, changing it and being changed by it."

The authors of the article are Dr. Gareth Darbyshire of the Oriental Institute in Oxford, England; Dr. Stephen Mitchell of the University of Wales in Swansea, and Dr. Levent Vardar of the Turkish Department of Monuments and Museums in Ankara.

But they and other researchers, including Dr. Voigt and her colleagues at Gordion, concede that the Galatians and their culture remain poorly understood. And no one can be sure what happened to those European settlers in the city of Midas and Alexander.

Through intermarriage with indigenous people, the originally tall and blond Galatians probably blended in with others around them. "I don't know how Celtic they would have looked, even in the time of Paul," said Dr. Hicks, the Celtic specialist.

But the Galatians were still speaking a form of the Celtic language for several centuries after Paul. In the fourth century, St. Jerome observed that the Galatians used a dialect similar to one spoken in the Gallic town of Trier, back in the Europe they had left in the third century B.C.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: epigraphyandlanguage; galatians; godsgravesglyphs; gordion; helixmakemineadouble; kingmidas; midas; phrygia; phrygian; phrygians
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I guess that could explain my grandmother's red hair and blue eyes!!
1 posted on 12/25/2001 12:06:25 PM PST by Pericles
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To: Pericles
Please God, don't let my ancestoral blood be from the Mideast!
2 posted on 12/25/2001 12:20:32 PM PST by irish_lad
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To: Pericles
The Gauls of Galatia became the Celts - and they sprang from Esau, the exiled brother of Jacob. To our eyes, the twins Jacob and Esau would appear to be of two different races, yet they shared the same parents. All the races began as one and branched out from there, and the rift between Jacob and Esau was a significant moment in population distribution. A worldwide Christian brotherhood that reunites the separated family of mankind is part of God's plan for this world.
3 posted on 12/25/2001 12:20:34 PM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: Pericles
We get around.
4 posted on 12/25/2001 12:23:45 PM PST by Oschisms
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: ValerieUSA
The Gauls of Galatia became the Celts - and they sprang from Esau, the exiled brother of Jacob.

Interesting notion. I've never heard it before. What is your source for this assertion?

My understanding is that Esau was the ancestor of the Edomites (later Idumeans), who lived south and east of the Israelites/Jews and were eventually forcibly converted to Judaism by the Hasmoneans. Herod the Great was half Edomite by ancestry.

6 posted on 12/25/2001 12:25:59 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Pericles
What's new about this?

Primary source: Cambridge encyclopaedia of language.

The Celtic languages are divided into two classes: Insular and Continental

Continental Celtic languages are no longer spoken, but consisted of:
Celtiberian (Spain),
Gaulish (Swiss/Northern Italian variant known as Lepontic)
and Galatian in Turkey(!).

Galatian was spoken until about the 5th century.
Lepontic turns out to be P-Celtic.
Celtiberian turns out to be Q-Celtic, the split occuring prior to the 7th Century BC.

7 posted on 12/25/2001 12:35:31 PM PST by Nogbad
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To: seamole
Begosh and begorrah! *LOL*
8 posted on 12/25/2001 12:40:49 PM PST by Happygal
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: laconas
Did you know that Che Guevera was half Irish?
10 posted on 12/25/2001 12:53:08 PM PST by scouse
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To: Pericles
Here is some additional fascinating information on Celtic (particularly Irish) origins:

...The early Irish historians further deduced their origins lay with the Phoenician colonists who had also previously settled that Spanish Peninsula, later to migrate to Ireland. In this context it is of additional interest to note that the ancient Greeks once held the Phoenician nation to have been founded by Phoenix, whose brother Cadmus had invented the alphabet. Likewise, the Irish also recalled the time when they lived under a king named "Phenius, who devoted himself especially to the study of languages, and composed an alphabet and the elements of grammar." It is agreed among scholars the system of alphabetic writing originated among the Phoenicians, and this is deduced from hard and independent archaeological evidence, not Irish myths. So it is clear at the very least, the early Irish chroniclers were passing on an account, albeit garbled in places, of authentic historical events, and of the equally historic descent of their own race from Phoenician and/or Scythian stock (see Table 1)....

Presumably, they were not unaware they had originated in the general area where this archeology places them. The Scythians were apparently from the area around the northern and western areas of the Black Sea.

11 posted on 12/25/2001 1:06:31 PM PST by Gritty
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To: Pericles
Stupid headline writers. Celts in central Anatolia (modern "Turkey") is not unlikely, let alone news!

Alexander the Great was dealing with troublesome Celts in the Balkans; they later invaded Greece, plundered the riches at Delphi, and eventually settled down in central Anatolia where they became known as Galatians (Gauls = Gaels = Galatians). Ancient France was called Gaul; the Irish and highland Scots spoke Gaelic and were known as Gaels, and I think there is still a northwest corner of Spain known as Galicia. Galatians in Anatolia were still a distinct group with their own language and culture as late as the New Testament era, if you will recall from reading Galatians.

Trying to connect ancient Celts with stories for the Old Testament is just bizarre, though, and displays an ignorance of history and a weird tendency to try to tie everything into the Bible. Believe it or not, there was a lot of stuff going on in ancient times that was totally unconnected to the stories in the Bible.

12 posted on 12/25/2001 1:13:51 PM PST by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: Pericles
the ancient city of Gordion

Finally the archeologists have gotten a clue!
It's now "Gordion" because it has something to do with "Gordia".
It's because a lot of the Celts that over-ran the place were named "Gordon".
And it took a few of them looped on some wheat beer to come up with that "Gordion Knot" thingey.
13 posted on 12/25/2001 1:17:29 PM PST by VOA
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To: VOA
mis-fire:
It's now "Gordion" because it has something to do with "Gordia".

of course I meant:
It's not "Gordion" because it has something to do with "Gordia".
14 posted on 12/25/2001 1:18:44 PM PST by VOA
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To: Pericles
Apparently no remnants of the Celtic language or culture in Central Turkey survived until modern times. Human sacrifice has a way of doing that to a population. So why are people so proud of their Celtic heritage when the Celts and their Druid priests were so murdurous? I wonder the same thing about Mexicans and Aztecs. The Aztec world collapsed under its own evil; the Spanish just helped them along. One could ssay the same thing about the Celts and the Romans.
15 posted on 12/25/2001 1:20:15 PM PST by arm958
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To: Pericles
Those green championship banners they found hanging in one of those Anatolian caves was the first evidence of their Celtic heritage.
16 posted on 12/25/2001 1:21:05 PM PST by Ken H
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To: irish_lad
Celts were originally from Eastern Europe,before the Roman empire they spred mostly throught Northern Europe .Alexander the great pushed them to the north and the west. They were all over Europe there was no one Celtic country.

This info courtesy of a son that has studied the history of the Celts because of our Irish ancestory .

As I read this to him he shrugged unsurprised..the Celts were all over the place...

My grandma had red hair and green eyes.. my husbands Irish family have very dark eyes and hair..different branches of the sods family tree

Merry Christmas

17 posted on 12/25/2001 1:31:54 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Pericles
The Achaeans probably came down from the north originally, not long before the war with Troy. When Telemachus pays Menelaus and Helen a visit, Homer mentions that Menelaus has red hair. Odysseus and Achilleus also seem to be red-headed and blond, respectively.
18 posted on 12/25/2001 1:33:02 PM PST by Cicero
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: a_Turk; Turk2
BTTT
20 posted on 12/25/2001 1:38:30 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: arm958
Apparently no remnants of the Celtic language or culture in Central Turkey survived until modern times. Human sacrifice has a way of doing that to a population. So why are people so proud of their Celtic heritage when the Celts and their Druid priests were so murdurous? I wonder the same thing about Mexicans and Aztecs. The Aztec world collapsed under its own evil; the Spanish just helped them along. One could ssay the same thing about the Celts and the Romans.

"There is none righteous no not one".. we are sinners in need of a Savior.....just like every other man!

21 posted on 12/25/2001 1:40:15 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: scouse
Did you know that Che Guevera was half Irish?

Well, I wouldn't hold it against them.
Every basket has some bad apples.

22 posted on 12/25/2001 1:43:11 PM PST by Nogbad
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To: Restorer
The Edomites also were the Philistines and lived on the shore of the Mediterranean and branched out from there, too, by sea.
23 posted on 12/25/2001 1:48:08 PM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: Restorer
According to the Bible, all of mankind is descended from Noah's sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth. The Japhethites were the Europeans, the Hamites were the Africans, and the Mid East and Far East are the Shemites. Some put the Orientals in with the descendants of Ham. The prophecy given to Noah indicated that the Japhethites would rule the world. For the most part, through Europe and America that has been true. Of course not everyone believes the above.
24 posted on 12/25/2001 1:50:58 PM PST by razorbak
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To: RnMomof7
Far away, in the western desert edge of China, have been found mummies buried in the sands. These people had light hair or auburn hair and caucasian features.

They also practised human sacrifices. One red haired mummy, wearing a tall pointed witch's hat, was found buried with two others; a woman who had been executed before burial and an eighteen month old baby boy who had been buried alive. Very gruesome and horrorific. (From the National Geographic a few years back).

It was Saint Patrick (Padric was actually a Romanized Briton) who converted the Irish to Christianity and turned them away from the pagan means of worshiping that emphasized death and incorporated human sacrifices.

(SeeHow The Irish Saved Civilization by Thomas Cahill.)

Gee! Those Celts really got around!

25 posted on 12/25/2001 1:55:15 PM PST by goody2shooz
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To: Pericles, fiddlstix
Yes, European Celts — the Gauls of Roman times and the forerunners of Bretons, Welsh, Irish and highland Scots — once migrated as far east as what is now central Turkey and settled in and around post-Alexander Gordion, beginning in the early third century B.C.

Hey, cousin "Fid," looky here.

Why does this report not surprise me? I'll tell you why. Though my ancestors are Irish, English, and Welsh, the place in the world that I felt most mysteriously at home and absolutely knew what lay beyond each turn in a never-before-traveled road was Turkey.

That settles it! I'm going back! My DNA wants to go home.

26 posted on 12/25/2001 1:58:53 PM PST by PoisedWoman
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To: irish_lad
Hate to disappoint you, but there is a (quite substantial) theory that the Celts were one of the lost tribes of Israel. The Turkish finds are probably evidence of their migration north, rather than the other way around.
27 posted on 12/25/2001 2:02:54 PM PST by abclily
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To: irish_lad
Please God, don't let my ancestoral blood be from the Mideast!

Coming from the Middle East doesn't make you crazy. Staying there does!

28 posted on 12/25/2001 2:04:26 PM PST by JoeSchem
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To: Pericles
It has of course long been well-known that this part of Anatolia had a Celtic population. Both the Roman province in the area -- and the preceding local kingdom -- were called "Galatia." The famous statue of a dying Gaul is in fact of a Galatian.

Interesting that the Romans apparently allowed these human sacrifices to continue in Galatia after they subjected it to Roman rule in 25 B.C. The suppression of such sacrifices in Gaul (and, I believe, also in Britain) was an important part of the propaganda justifying the establishment of Roman rule there.

Simon James, The World of the Celts, p. 41, says about religion in Galatia: "The best recorded instance of Galatian human sacrifice occurred in 165 B.C., when prisoners not about to be ransomed were offered to the gods." He says the Galatians were noted for this practice, and that neighboring peoples felt fear of them as a result, so that they would even commit suicide rather than fall into their hands. So some ancient writer -- I do not know which --must mention this practice in Galatia.

There is a discussion of human sacrifice in Gaul in Strabo IV iv 5.

As an Irish-American who praised earlier today on another forum the Spanish conquest of Mexico for its suppression of Aztec human sacrifice, let me say here that I applaud the suppression of this barbaric practice in Celtic lands, and thoroughly deplore the idiots who are now trying to resurrect Celtic paganism.

29 posted on 12/25/2001 2:06:29 PM PST by aristeides
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To: ValerieUSA
The Edomites also were the Philistines and lived on the shore of the Mediterranean and branched out from there, too, by sea.

You've got a rather large number of things mixed up. The Philistines were (or at least were ruled by) a completely non-Semitic group, probably related to the Myceneans run out of Greece by the Dorians and other invading Greek tribes.

There is also little or no evidence that the Philistines were a seafaring people, at least once they reached Palestine. You may be confusing them with the Phoenicians, who were another Semitic people, essentially northern Canaanites, and who spoke a Semitic language almost identical to Hebrew.

Some of the other ethic groups in the area included Ammonites, Moabites, Hittites, Amorites, etc. There were a lot of different groups around.

Extra points if you can figure out the only one still extant!

30 posted on 12/25/2001 2:08:28 PM PST by Restorer
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To: PoisedWoman
Thanks for the Ping J
Btw, got your email too
Thanks
Merry Christmas
31 posted on 12/25/2001 2:14:58 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: razorbak
prophecy given to Noah indicated that the Japhethites would rule the world. ""Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave."

It sounds more to me like the primary blessing was given to Shem, with Japheth almost an afterthought.

Note also that Ham is not mentioned, only his son Canaan.

32 posted on 12/25/2001 2:15:00 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Gracey
*Ping*
Thought you might like to look at this J
33 posted on 12/25/2001 2:22:56 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: goody2shooz
We have that book :>)...
34 posted on 12/25/2001 2:24:10 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: ValerieUSA
. A worldwide Christian brotherhood that reunites the separated family of mankind is part of God's plan for this world.
Yup: that's true!

Ephesians 2
 11.  Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)--
 12.  remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
 13.  But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
 14.  For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
 15.  by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
 16.  and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 
 17.  He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.
 18.  For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

35 posted on 12/25/2001 2:25:52 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Pericles
Thanks for posting. Bump.
36 posted on 12/25/2001 2:28:18 PM PST by d4now
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To: Pericles
Neat.
37 posted on 12/25/2001 2:39:48 PM PST by dr_who
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To: Restorer
Psalms 60:8
"Moab is My washbowl;
Over Edom I shall throw My shoe;
Shout loud, O Philistia, because of Me!"

They were all the same peoples with different chiefs.

38 posted on 12/25/2001 2:48:14 PM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: laconas
Bernardo O'Higgins was the bastard son of an Irish peddlar. This Irish peddlar became governor of Chile and later Viceroy of Peru. Source: Latin America: A General History, by John Edwin Fagg.
39 posted on 12/25/2001 3:19:35 PM PST by DeaconBenjamin
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To: irish_lad
Hate to break the news to you but if you are Irish and have dark features, odds are that it is from the plundering of Ireland by the Spanish Armada, and we all know who rules Spain for quite awhile just before the rise of the Spanish Empire.
40 posted on 12/25/2001 4:04:08 PM PST by L`enn
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To: laconas
Lot of Irish ended up in Latin America. One popular person, thought not with the historical resume of Bernardo O'Higgins, was Anthony Quinn, whose father was Irish but resided in Mexico.
41 posted on 12/25/2001 4:06:58 PM PST by L`enn
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To: DeaconBenjamin
John Edwin Fagg

I'll add that to my growing List of Unfortunate Names.

42 posted on 12/25/2001 4:07:36 PM PST by DallasMike
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: irish_lad
Hey Mick, (its OK, I'm Irish also) we are ALL from the Mid-East. Many histories of the world have peoples emerging from Anotolia (eastern Turkey) and migrating to northern Europe, either by way of southern Europe and the Mediterranean sea, or north through Russia and Germany.

As a biblical literalist, I believe this bodes well for the story of Noah and his descendants being true, as the "mountains of Ararat" are in this region.

You will no doubt note that ALL civilizations seem to have their roots in this general region.

44 posted on 12/25/2001 4:13:41 PM PST by keithtoo
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: laconas
Actually, I think the proverbial expression is: "Only in America."
46 posted on 12/25/2001 4:27:39 PM PST by DeaconBenjamin
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To: L`enn
Nah, the Spanish never even stopped in Ireland, except for a few ships that never left again. By the time the remnants of the Spanish fleet rounded the north end of Scotland, they were scattered, and in a great hurry to go home.

No, the "black" Irish apparently lived in the land before the Celtic peoples arrived. Perhaps related to the Picts across the Irish Sea.

There seem to have been three major waves of settlement in Ireland, as suggested by the three peoples of the ancient legends. I don't recall what the legends called the other two peoples, before the Celts arrived from what appears to have been Spain.

47 posted on 12/25/2001 4:32:28 PM PST by jimtorr
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
The Chinese have found mummified bodies of red hair people in the Sanjing Region of China. Based on the clothing and bracelets found, many believe that they are Celtic in origin. I am not surprised because the Eastern European Celts became nomadic horseman and were quite effective horse archers. There is evidence that they settled in the Afghanistan region (which is separated by one major mountain range from the Sanjing Region of China).
48 posted on 12/25/2001 4:35:48 PM PST by Fee
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To: keithtoo
As a biblical literalist, I believe this bodes well for the story of Noah and his descendants being true, as the "mountains of Ararat" are in this region.

You'll have to go back to the Noah story and the Tower of Babbel. Folks left the Tower and spread all over the world. It is very definetly shown that the Celts in Turkey migrated from the north. Every ancient writer who mentions the origions of these people agree. Shoot, there are even a few writers who saw it happen!

49 posted on 12/25/2001 4:38:18 PM PST by jimtorr
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To: LostTribe
bump
50 posted on 12/25/2001 4:40:46 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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