J’Accuse

lewrockwell.com ^ | December 24, 2001 | Michael Peirce

[gnarledmaw]

Patriots or Traitors: That is the question

[sixmil]

That's because LewRockwell is a bunch of Blame-America-First LEWsers.

Why are the people who question US foreign policy in the middle east called "The Blame America First Crowd," while the people who say that terrorist Afghanistan was created when the US left with the Russians are not? Sounds like they are blaming America as well. Isn't Afghanistan responsible for itself? Did we force them to set up a bunch of terrorist training camps? The "We Never Shoulda Left Afghanistan Argument" really smacks of some left wing/self hating/misdirected/specious/overcompassionate BS in my opinion, so it is really strange for me to hear "conservatives" repeat it so often. Aren't these the same people who always tell us we need an exit strategy. I guess the rules only fit when they need to.

[Lazamataz]

Why are the people who question US foreign policy in the middle east called "The Blame America First Crowd," while the people who say that terrorist Afghanistan was created when the US left with the Russians are not?

Allow me to clarify: BOTH groups are B.A.F.ers. Anyone who blames America for terrorism inflicted on America is a BAFhole.

[sixmil]

Allow me to clarify: BOTH groups are B.A.F.ers. Anyone who blames America for terrorism inflicted on America is a BAFhole

Ok. So now tell me how we get to justifying the terrorist attacks, from a simple criticism of US foreign policy. It seems to me that no one, except for terrorists, is saying that the US deserved the attack because of our mid east policy. I think they are merely saying that our policy puts us in their crosshairs. That is, we can either change our current policy, or continue the current policy with extra vigilence from now on. To me, they are just taking the path of least resistance. So call them lazy if you want. America haters, I think, is a little strong.

[Lazamataz]

I think they are merely saying that our policy puts us in their crosshairs.

Guess what: Our existance puts us in their crosshairs. The fact we are prosperous puts us in their crosshairs. The fact we are (well, were) free puts us in their crosshairs. The fact we do not embrace Islam puts us in their crosshairs.

That is, we can either change our current policy, or continue the current policy with extra vigilence from now on. To me, they are just taking the path of least resistance. So call them lazy if you want.

I can agree with this. Lazy, and extremely short-sighted. Neville Chamberlain, watch out -- there's a new kid on the block.

America haters, I think, is a little strong.

Never called them that. I will, however, continue to call them Blame-America-First holes (BAFholes).

[FreeTally]

Ok. So now tell me how we get to justifying the terrorist attacks, from a simple criticism of US foreign policy. It seems to me that no one, except for terrorists, is saying that the US deserved the attack because of our mid east policy.

You are correct, but you must remember you are arguing with party-line Republicans, not conservatives. This thread is very typical. Most negative responses are from posters who did not even read the article.

You are also correct in that no one other than the terrorists are saying we "deserved" the attacks. Our foreign policy is one of the main reasons for the attacks, not just the fact that the terrorists are Islamic. There are many, many other rich, industrialized quasi-capitalistic countries who should be in their "crosshairs" as well, but nothing has happened to them.

Its very scary to see Americans being divided over this. But, its probably a godsend for the totalitarian government thats just getting reved up. I had a bad feeling that once GW became president, there would be some issue arise or event happen that would allow the "masses" to label any "conservative" who disagrees with the official government position as a "extremist wacko". I could have never envisioned this, though. Now you have liberals and conservatives "brought together" by lies and deception ready to put anyone who disagrees with the countries new direction in front of a military tribunal. This couldn't have worked any better if it was planned....

[FreeTally]

Guess what: Our existance puts us in their crosshairs. The fact we are prosperous puts us in their crosshairs. The fact we are (well, were) free puts us in their crosshairs. The fact we do not embrace Islam puts us in their crosshairs.

When are the terrorist bombings scheduled to begin in Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan, Sweeden, Finland, Netherlands.......?

After all, they are all prosperous, somewhat free and don't embrace islam. They should have all been reduced to rubble by now. That Bin Laden guy must be slow or something.

[Lazamataz]

When are the terrorist bombings scheduled to begin in Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan, Sweeden, Finland, Netherlands.......?

Are you saying that Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan, Sweeden[sic], Finland, and the Netherlands are anywhere as prosperous as us? And are you saying that they are as prominent as us?

Russia was a contender, once, but they collapsed. We are the biggest boys in the block, and Bin Ladin et. al. are very jealous.

[FreeTally]

Are you saying that Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan, Sweeden[sic], Finland, and the Netherlands are anywhere as prosperous as us?

The United States is not one of the top five richest countries in the world. Im not sure if we are even in the top ten. Our standard of living is also not in the top ten.

[Lazamataz]

The United States is not one of the top five richest countries in the world. Im not sure if we are even in the top ten. Our standard of living is also not in the top ten.

Gross Domestic Product, Billions of Dollars and Year of Survey (Repeated figures are figures from various compilations and sources):

Country	bill$94	bill$95	bill$95	bill$94	bill$95	bill$96	bill$90	bill$90
Algeria	37	38	39
Argentina	278	285	271
Australia	324	332	342	332	352	373	326	339
Austria	221	226	231	161	166	172	172	176
Bangladesh	27	28	29
Belgium	262	268	269	208	214	222	204	208
Brazil	610	626	657
Bulgaria	37	38	38
Canada	517	530	542	594	622	645	598	612
Chile	53	55	59
China	2461	2523	2759
Colombia	71	73	76
Congo(Kin)	5	5	5
Croatia	19	20	20
Cuba	22	23	23
Czech Rep	94	96	101				24	26
Denmark	173	178	170	106	112	118	139	142
Egypt	44	45	46
El Salvador	9	9	10
Ethiopia	5	5	5
Finland	121	124	119	83	92	97	125	131
France	1452	1488	1521	1116	1157	1199	1234	1260
Germany	2079	2131	2172	1608	1675	1736	1750	1781
Ghana	6	6	6
Greece	87	89	91	121	127	134	88	90
Hungary	64	65	66				31	32
India	299	307	326
Indonesia	172	177	189
Iran	158	162	158
Iraq	NA	NA	NA
Ireland	NA	NA	NA	57	62	69	54	61
Israel	83	85	91
Italy	1025	1050	1082	1069	1115	1148	1124	1157
Japan	4981	5106	5153	2652	2752	2925	3144	3191
Kenya	7	7	8
Korea, N	21	22	21
Korea, S	380	390	425	507	565	619	334	364
Kuwait	28	28	30
Luxembourg	NA	NA	NA	12	13	14	13	13
Malaysia	71	73	81
Mexico	254	261	237	728	698	751	302	283
Morocco	33	34	32
Netherlands	373	382	391	289	307	325	308	315
New Zealand				58	61	64	48	50
Nigeria	94	96	95
Norway	121	124	128	95	99	107	133	138
Pakistan	57	59	61
Peru	51	53	57
Philippines	71	73	77
Poland	188	193	209				61	66
Portugal	98	100	103	119	124	130	71	72
Romania	91	93	99
Russia	93	95	76
Saudi Arabia	121	124	128
Serbia-Montenegro	NA	NA	21
Slovakia	18	19	19
Slovenia	21	22	23
South Africa	124	127	131
Spain	525	538	554	538	561	587	515	529
Sri Lanka	12	12	13
Sweden	207	212	219	155	166	171	226	235
Switzerland	302	309	316	170	177	181	226	228
Syria	45	46	50
Taiwan	243	249	264
Tanzania	4	4	4
Thailand	147	151	163
Turkey	153	157	167	320	350	383	165	176
United Kingdom	1058	1084	1110	1032	1047	1096	1013	1040
United States	6932	7106	7247	6716	7030	7388	6005	6147
Venezuela	71	73	75

RANKING, IN ORDER:

1. UNITED STATES
2. JAPAN
3. CHINA
4. GERMANY
5. FRANCE
6. UNITED KINGDOM
7. ITALY

Facts are stubborn things, aren't they?

[Ditto]

The United States is not one of the top five richest countries in the world. Im not sure if we are even in the top ten. Our standard of living is also not in the top ten.

Are you joking? What is your source for that assertion?

[FreeTally]

GDP is not how "richness" is computed. I should have been more specific. Average household income is what I mean when I say "richest" country.

[FreeTally]

Are you joking? What is your source for that assertion?

Sorry if you guys don't know the truth. This is common knowledge - its widely reported. As of 1996, we were (I think) 5th in Standard of living. As I corrected myself in my post to Lazamataz, the U.S. is not in the top five in average household income, which is what I meant by "richest".

[Lazamataz]

GDP is not how "richness" is computed. I should have been more specific. Average household income is what I mean when I say "richest" country.

We have the greatest 'critical mass' of wealth in the world. We are envied and hated for it.

[Colt .45]

Good article! But this guy has issues, and the only big issue I have is with political correctness. However, I think his article has merit.

[sixmil]

Facts are stubborn things, aren't they?

Not if you dig a little deeper than the surface.

Your list is a little dated, and also it is nothing more than GNP, which is basically a guage of how big a country's economy is. I think you should give some weight to per capita GNP, which factors out population size. Another one is PPP (purchasing power parity) which takes cost of living into account.

These are from the CIA World factbook 2001 (1999 data):

GDP
1. US
2. China (chicom notorious for overstating gdp)
3. Japan
4. Germany
5. India
6. France
7. UK
8. Italy
9. Brazil
10. Mexico

Per Capita GNP
1. Luxembourg
2. US
3. Singapore
4. Switzerland
5. Monaco
6. Norway
7. Belgium
8. Denmark
9. Iceland
10. Japan/Austria

PPP you'll have to get from World Bank or somewhere, but I can tell you that the US does well, while northern European countries and Japan tend to slide down the scale for the simple fact that collectivism ain't cheap.

But getting back to the original point, do you have any reason to doubt the reasons the terrorists themselves give for attacking America? I don't know that I would take out all of Mecca, but I certainly would not be happy with Saudi (or even UN) troops on our soil to protect us from a Canadian invasion, for example.

[Lazamataz]

You've posted facts basically supporting my position, and I thank you for it.

But getting back to the original point, do you have any reason to doubt the reasons the terrorists themselves give for attacking America?

Simple: Palestinians claimed they would be peaceful if only Israel would make all these major concessions.

Israel made most of those major concessions.

Palestine began one of its most bloody terrorist attack periods.

Terrorists lie.

[sixmil]

You've posted facts basically supporting my position, and I thank you for it.

Simple: Palestinians claimed they would be peaceful if only Israel would make all these major concessions.

Israel made most of those major concessions.

Palestine began one of its most bloody terrorist attack periods.

Terrorists lie.

------

My point is not that we can get these terrorists off of our backs by meeting their demands. No way. Negotiating with terrorists encourages terrorism just as appeasement encourages aggression. We must completely destroy them now without remorse or hesitation. My guess is that we could have avoided this. I am a firm believer that lying with dogs gets you fleas everytime. Too bad we can not go back in a time machine to see if I really am right. I look at our troops in Korea and I know that they are, in general, not welcome there. If a country can not even appreciate our help, then why should we be there? What is in it for us? Why is it our job to police the world and then get little more than spite in return?

[Lazamataz]

My guess is that we could have avoided this. I am a firm believer that lying with dogs gets you fleas everytime.

Unfortunately, the whole damned world is flea-ridden, even Canada, and even the US. So you have to be willing to embrace isolationism to be flea-free, and if you think isolationism works between nations, consider: If you completely isolate a town, it's economy will crumble. It is the same with a nation.