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The Things That Are Caesar's
Lew Rockwell ^ | 12/27/01 | Joseph Sobran

Posted on 12/27/2001 1:35:48 AM PST by Ada Coddington

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To: sheltonmac; Ada Coddington
You can repudiate your Savior, but not your nation-state. Your religion is a private affair, which nobody else can judge, not even your family; but political loyalties are indissoluble.

Crimes are punished by government authorities. Sin is punished by God. What is he finding so unclear in this? Surely he isn't wanting our government to take on more of the form of the Taliban.

"In the U.S. I feel alone," he once said. "Here I feel comfortable and at home."

Maybe he felt closer to God in Islam than in liberal Catholicism. And maybe he was right. The Taliban is pretty far from God, but perhaps not as far as lukewarm Christianity.

In his odd way, Lindh was looking for stable truths that were not to be found in Marin County, and he didn't care if his search led him to conclusions that seemed insane to the apostles of pluralism.

More along the lines that, as many children raised in families that are broken or next to it, there is deep anger and even hate. From what I have read of him, he blamed his parents but also America. Just as some turn to gangs and feel "they belong", he turned to yet another oganized hate group, one that claimed their actions were "for Allah". If he had any religious or spiritual feelings, I would guess the idea of acting on hate in the name of religion would seem appealing.

41 posted on 12/27/2001 3:22:13 PM PST by SusanUSA
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To: Ada Coddington
Joe's overlooking a few facts here. One is that it isn't a requirement that the US be at war for a citizen to face charges of treason for making war against the US while still a citizen. Had Walker renounced his citizenship officially, he wouldn't face charges of treason. Another is that the requisite two witnesses haven't yet been sought, apparently.

Sobran is also dissembling here by trying to insinuate that citizenship is as free from legal definition as religion is in the US. Any of us may change religious affiliation at will and the government has no power to require that we notify them. The same is not true of citizenship.

None of this really matters, since we have a President with very elastic scruples. Walker will skate because Bush hasn't the backbone to face the outcry that liberals would raise should he let the traitor be hanged as he so richly deserves.

42 posted on 12/27/2001 3:31:10 PM PST by Twodees
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To: Ada Coddington
If Lindh had stayed here, become an abortion provider, and attached a little American flag to his Mercedes, he would still qualify as a good American.

Bingo. There is more outrage shown at the fact that he decided to live somewhere else. He's not an Amerian. And thus he can't be called guilty of treason. Nor can it be proven that he made war against us.

43 posted on 12/27/2001 3:36:17 PM PST by Demidog
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To: riley1992
I don't think so, Riley. If a citizen joins others in making war against the US, whether or not war has been declared has no bearing on whether or not the citizen was knowingly shooting at American soldiers. It seems to me that the "no war, no treason" defense can't be stretched to cover the act of firing a rifle at US troops.

Politicians seem to like undeclared wars because they can profit from their treason under that technicality, but they usually refrain from actually firig on our troops. There's not any money in that end of the war anyway. ;-)

44 posted on 12/27/2001 3:36:54 PM PST by Twodees
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To: Twodees
Walkwer's citizenship is his own choice not hte U.S. governments and not yours. There is no official renouncement procedure is there? A form 1238976 stroke 103345?
45 posted on 12/27/2001 3:37:41 PM PST by Demidog
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To: untenured
Maybe he felt closer to God in Islam than in liberal Catholicism.

"Liberal Catholicism" to Joe Sobran is anything that has manifested itself since 1962.

In Joe's mind, vernacular Masses, married deacons, women reading scripture at Mass, and priests in shirt sleeves are worse than an ideology which leads to flying planes into buildings full of innocent people.

Sobran, like Charley Reese, has completely lost any relevance since 9/11.

46 posted on 12/27/2001 3:43:20 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: riley1992
"She said, "No war, no treason" and she may very well be correct. The United States of America has not officially declared war upon anyone. That is a very important technical sticking point in regards to trying him or anyone else for treason in this circumstance."

Nope, she is wrong. As I recall, there were executions for treason against the US during the "Cold War", for which there was no declaration of war, either. The section on treason in the Constitution says not one word about any necessity for a declaration of war.

47 posted on 12/27/2001 3:56:03 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog
You are right. Further down in the thread I said that I found that out. However, the two witness issue may still be a problem.
48 posted on 12/27/2001 4:08:06 PM PST by riley1992
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To: tgiles
Why would he play favorites?

Maybe for the same reasons that teachers do. Or maybe for the reasons that parents do (and then deny it.) Or maybe for the reasons that executives do...or sales managers...or movie directors....

But you never told me. On what do you base your opinions?

49 posted on 12/15/1990 1:41:43 AM PST by xzins
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To: nopardons
Maybe Sobran needs a refresher course in patriotism 101 .

Ammnd he NEEDS it , from a screeming harppyu with limitred grasp of the enhlish langiuge !

Perhaps he also needs better research help , as well. There HAVE been articles, and talking heads , who have been just as hard on Johnny Jihad, and his parents, about his converting to Islam.

None that I've seen.

Only those with VERY little knowledge, can read this drivel and applaud it.

You imperiously demeaning others' mental abilities is like a midget squeeking out threats to beat normal people up. It's amusing.

50 posted on 12/15/1990 1:42:02 AM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: tgiles
Who are God's children?

In John 8:44 Christ was telling the Jews that the devil was their father.

So who are God's children? Or should I ask how does one become a child of God?

51 posted on 12/15/1990 1:42:28 AM PST by kansas_goat_roper
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To: Wonder Warthog
Many American Jews have dual citizenship, so that example , you gave, doesn't work.

Nope ! Many of those, who went to fight, in Spain, WERE punished, once they came home ! That is precisely the example I was using ... the Lincoln Brigade. LOL

Thanks for allowing me to correct you and prove you incorrect at the same time. : - )

52 posted on 12/15/1990 1:42:49 AM PST by nopardons
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To: sinkspur
In Joe's mind, vernacular Masses, married deacons, women reading scripture at Mass, and priests in shirt sleeves are worse than an ideology which leads to flying planes into buildings full of innocent people.

And you have quotes of Sobran to back this up? Or is it just one more convenient bit of neocon slander?

53 posted on 12/29/2001 12:06:58 AM PST by Pelham
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To: nopardons
Many of those, who went to fight, in Spain, WERE punished, once they came home !

Name one. I've not read of any of the Lincoln Brigade ever having been punished.

54 posted on 12/29/2001 12:06:59 AM PST by Pelham
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To: Pelham
Sobran's antipathy to Vatican II and it's "fallout" are well known to even casual readers of The WANDERER.

He's a Tridentine advocate.

55 posted on 12/29/2001 12:07:03 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: nopardons
The Lincolns returned home as heroes of the anti-fascist cause but enjoyed no official recognition of their deed. Many Lincolns soon aroused bitterness within sectors of the Left when, with the signing of the Hitler-Stalin nonaggression pact in 1939, they supported the CP's call for the United States to stay out of WWII. Once the United States and the Soviet Union entered the war, however, many of the veterans enlisted in the armed forces or served with the merchant marine. In a foreshadowing of the McCarthy period, the armed forces designated the Lincolns "premature antifascists" and confined them to their bases. Many successfully protested and were allowed to see action. Among the core agents of the Office of Strategic Services were Lincoln veterans whose contacts with the European partisans, forged in Spain, were key to OSS missions.

In the 1950s most veterans, whether Communist or not, were harassed or forced out of their jobs by the FBI. Communist Lincolns in particular were hit hard by the repressive Subversive Activities Control Board, the Smith Act, and state sedition laws, although over time all but a few convictions were overturned. In the 1950s and 1960s the majority of Lincoln veterans quit the CP but continued to be active on the Left. Notwithstanding its exclusion from American textbooks, the Abraham Lincoln Brigade commands attention as a unique example of prescient, radical, and selfless action in the cause of international freedom.

http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/abe-brigade.html

Looks like the Reds aren't privy to your information. The only prosecutions they mention of Lincoln Brigade veterans is for their subversive activities back in the States after their return. Maybe your boast of knowing that the Lincoln Brigade was prosecuted was ... premature.

56 posted on 12/29/2001 12:07:07 AM PST by Pelham
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To: sinkspur
Oh. I didn't realize that antipathy to Vatican II and its fallout was the same as:

In Joe's mind, vernacular Masses, married deacons, women reading scripture at Mass, and priests in shirt sleeves are worse than an ideology which leads to flying planes into buildings full of innocent people.

But then, as you say, you are reading Joe's mind to gain this information. I would have thought it was "hyperbole unsupported by evidence", but then I have yet to learn the art of mindreading. I mostly rely on quoting someone when attributing incendiary positions to them. This mindreading stuff opens an entirely new field to the art of debate.

57 posted on 12/29/2001 12:07:17 AM PST by Pelham
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To: tgiles
Why would he play favorites?

For the same reason that He decided to reveal Himself to the Jews first and referred to them as the apple of His eye. He is sovereign. He answers to no one but Himself.

Why did He choose Abel over Cain?

58 posted on 12/29/2001 12:08:04 AM PST by rdb3
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To: kansas_goat_roper
So who are God's children? Or should I ask how does one become a child of God?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

---John 1:12

59 posted on 12/29/2001 12:08:05 AM PST by rdb3
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To: nopardons
"Many American Jews have dual citizenship, so that example , you gave, doesn't work."

I don't see why not. Again, the section of the Constitution that defines treason doesn't say anything about "dual citizenship" being an excuse. I suspect that if a "dual citizen" committed an act of war against the US, they would be convicted of treason based soley on their AMERICAN citizenship. Maybe they would only be shot half as dead :)

I see Pelham has disabused you about the Lincoln Brigade members.

60 posted on 12/29/2001 12:09:09 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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