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America First: Why we need to examine our insane Foreign policy
self | 12/29/2001 | Demidog

Posted on 12/29/2001 9:27:49 AM PST by Demidog

I am not an America hater by any stretch of the imagination. Nor are the plethora of folks calling for a re-examination of our foreign policies. But that's what we're called.

I wish I knew why.

I really don't want to be against any American. I don't like being on the butt end of insults. So if there were a way to somehow explain what it is that bothers me about our foreign policy without the resultant cries of "traitor! treason! Islam firster!" I would.

One of the main problems apears to be that any "agreement" with bin Laden and his band of murdering thugs is seen to be support. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is probably true that bin Laden knows that water is tantamount to life in the desert. If I agree with this, I am no more supporting bin Laden than you are by agreeing.

When we decry any actions taken by Israel, we are "anti-semites." When Israel admitted that they had set a booby trap near an area where children played and 5 Palestinian boys died when it went off, you couldn't get near the topic without being ridiculed.

This is puzzling to me. There is nothing wrong per se with Israel and certainly not Jews, but for certain they are not perfect. For some, Israel is perfection and any criticism is tantamount to racism. Those who disagree are shouted down with such fervor it makes one pause.

American policies aren't perfect either. It is arguable for instance that John Wayne's death from cancer could be attributed to nuclear tests performed back in the 40's. Movie locations happened to be in the area where tests occurred. Many film industry professionals who worked on movies filmed in Nevada died from cancer including that great American we called "the Duke."

Many soldiers who were in the vicinity of those tests also died from cancer.

Why is it an indictment on all of America to bring such mistakes to light? In general, the American population has no say so in the slightest regarding these sorts of activities nor do they have much say in our foreign policy.

But as usual, it is the American population that has to accept the consequences of Policy mistakes made by the government. To say that those who object to this "hate America" is completely absurd.

The truth is quite the opposite.

I love America. And those who decry our foreign policy blunders and the theft of our hard earned money that is necessary in order to carry out these blunders also love America. We're simply tired of having to pay the price for those mistakes, while those who carry them out never have to suffer the consequences.

One of the most bizarre claims by those who are calling us "America haters" and "Islam firsters" is that terorrists are simply angry that we are so democratic as a nation and love freedom. These terrorists "hate freedom" and thus hate America and Americans. They're "jealous," in other words, of our prosperity.

This is about as brilliant an analysis as claiming that Timothy McVeigh was upset that he was no longer an employee of the federal government and thus took out his jealosy and rage on that same federal government.

It is the analysis of the simpleton.

The fact is, we only know what the terrorists claim. Not that it matters much. The opinions of mass murderers are not that important. Clearly however, this is not what any of the terrorists are saying. What they are saying is that they believe themselves to be oppressed by our foreign intervention.

When students took Iranian embassy employees hostage, their reason given for such extraordinary measures was American meddling in Iranian internal affairs.

The Shah of Iran was our personally hand-picked leader for their country. The CIA had, in the time period between the time we basically annexed Iran during WWII, purposefully destroyed opposition to the Shah by using tactics they had learned in South America.

None of those tactics were even remotely related to "freedom" or the principles upon which this nation was founded. They were the actions of a government that believed the Iranian people were chattle and were not worthy of chosing their own leadership.

So what happened? A number of Americans paid the price for our meddling. When we allowed the Shah to enter America to receive medical treatment, the last straw was put upon the back of that proverbial camel.

And that is not to mention the American lives that were sacrificed in a botched rescue attempt. For some, these lives are expendable. They are the price a nation pays for being a "super power." I agree with that assesment. But I don't think we need to be a superpower. I don't think we need to meddle in the affairs of other nations in order to protect our borders.

As is proven time and time again, such meddling has a high price.

And therein lies the rub. Dying in order to defend this nation from an attacking force is national defense and is noble. Sending young men and women across the globe to secure oil fields and preserve the "American way of life" is a sick project. I for one, am not willing to lose a single American for the cynical goal of sub-dollar-a-gallon fuel for my SUV.

If that is the measure of value for an American life then you can call me an America hater all day long and I will be proud to wear that badge.

I criticize our foreign policies because they result in the deaths of American soldiers and citizens at home and abroad. In no way do I criticize Americans. In the aftermath of the Trade Center attacks, it wasn't the government that responded with such ferocity and bravery. It was the average American.

The Beaurocrats were busy playing CYA and letting us know that none of this was their fault. In the meantime, Americans came up with over 60 million dollars in cash and even more in valuable resources in spite of the fact that they are taxed to the extreme in order to pay for the very policies that helped to incubate the attacks of 9/11.

America proved it's greatness in the response to the attacks. The government proved it's complete disregard for human liberty by passing laws which violate the spirit and letter of the Supreme law of the land. Even while the fires were still burning.

America is a great nation and is full of great people. Unfortunately its leaders have no respect for its people or its laws. Pointing this out is not showing hate for anything but the lawbreakers who do so.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
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I'm tired of being called an "Islam Firster."

I am an America Firster.

1 posted on 12/29/2001 9:27:50 AM PST by Demidog (rfisk@lycios.com)
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To: tex-oma;nunya bidness;malador;OWK;MadameAxe;JohnHuang2;Askel5;Cato;LSJohn;veronica;Uriel1975...
.
2 posted on 12/29/2001 9:30:30 AM PST by Demidog
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To: Demidog
Let me tell you how much I enjoyed reading your post before you get labeled all sorts of God awful things and/or this gets yanked.
3 posted on 12/29/2001 9:31:14 AM PST by riley1992
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To: Demidog
Watch it. This post is not in PC form.
4 posted on 12/29/2001 9:33:02 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Demidog
Flying passenger jets into the WTC seems like "insane Foreign policy" to me.
5 posted on 12/29/2001 9:33:35 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Demidog
Good Job Demidog!!!

In the bookmarks it goes. Finally I get to a thread before there is a 500 post flame war. :)

6 posted on 12/29/2001 9:34:39 AM PST by JakeWyld
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To: Demidog
I'm tired of being called an "Islam Firster." I am an America Firster.

Amen.

7 posted on 12/29/2001 9:34:57 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
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To: Roscoe
Flying passenger jets into the WTC seems like "insane Foreign policy" to me.

I agree with this. And I mean that. Probably the only post you've ever made to me with which I can find no fault.

8 posted on 12/29/2001 9:36:07 AM PST by Demidog
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To: Demidog
So you like the American people, but hate the American people the American people elected through free elections? There are probably lots of other "great people" in other countries with different systems you might try.
9 posted on 12/29/2001 9:36:36 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: Demidog
Wow! Very well thought out. Some minor disagreements, but not the subject of my post...
We need to realize that stopping terrorism isn't a military objective, but a social objective. ...and the tool we use is our foreign policy.
10 posted on 12/29/2001 9:37:33 AM PST by FractalSphere
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To: Demidog
There is *NOTHING* wrong with criticizing Israel. In fact, my best friend is a liberal who disagrees with Israeli policy with regard to dealing with the whole palestinian issue. He is not an antisemite or a Jew hater. When people get labeled an antisemite here it is usualy for spreading lies and untruths and having done so repeatedly on the given thread and others.
We Pro-Israelis have good memories and if we spot someone that will refuse to condemn palestinian suicide bombers in one thread, makes lies about the history of the conflict in another, and then in yet another quote material from stormfront we take note. If that same person says something very questionable in another thread, we might confront him on why he/she feels the way they do (with the implication that it's anti-Jewish in nature). And, I personaly take issue with being called an Israel firster. This implies that I do not love my country, or that I am more loyal to Israel than the US. That is simply NOT true. I am an American first, a Jew second, and not even an Israeli at all. On the other hand, the political issue that I care more about than anything else happens to be the conflict in the middle east. I am speaking here only for myself and no one else. However, I suspect that many others feel the same way. Hopefully this statement clears some things up. Have a nice rest of the day Demidog-
11 posted on 12/29/2001 9:37:47 AM PST by College Repub
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To: Demidog
Just a quibble, but why do you Libertarians always lable your vanity posts, something they are not, in this case "Foreign affairs".

Your post should be posted under "your opinions". Everyone else does. Oops I forgot you are a Libertarian, and you think you are extra important.

Never mind.

12 posted on 12/29/2001 9:38:52 AM PST by Dane
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To: Demidog
I have noticed near universal collective Borg-like thought control in the conservative movement and in this forum on issues like "we must attack Saddam" and of course "we must attack China".

I am afraid I might get deleted for saying this...but isn't Saddam are best reason to keep our forces in Saudi Arabia? I mean without Saddam, the Saudis and the other Islamic states would be hollering for us to leave. The Islamists would be causing chaos in Iraq and all over. Iraq, at the very least is a secular Arab state, who is always ready for war with its scared but "friendly" neighbors. I say keep Saddam in power to keep the Arab world in fear from both sides, us and Saddam.

THIS POST WILL BE DELETED IN FIVE MINUTES

13 posted on 12/29/2001 9:39:28 AM PST by B1B_Lancer
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To: Demidog
It is arguable for instance that John Wayne's death from cancer could be attributed to nuclear tests performed back in the 40's. Movie locations happened to be in the area where tests occurred. Many film industry professionals who worked on movies filmed in Nevada died from cancer including that great American we called "the Duke."

And, of course, you'll take your SWAG about Wayne and blame the American government for his death.

It is not arguable that John Wayne smoked four packs of filterless cigarettes a day for 45 years.

Occam's razor says that the Duke died as a result of tobacco use.

As for the rest of your rant, it is a rehash of your very first post on 9/11.

The bodies of your fellow citizens weren't even cold yet, and you were blaming the people they elected for their deaths.

. Sending young men and women across the globe to secure oil fields and preserve the "American way of life" is a sick project. I for one, am not willing to lose a single American for the cynical goal of sub-dollar-a-gallon fuel for my SUV.

This is the kind of crap that gets you labeled an American hater.

You're incorrigible. Hopefully, the next time Jim kicks your butt of the forum, you'll STAY OFF!

14 posted on 12/29/2001 9:41:48 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: anniegetyourgun
So you like the American people, but hate the American people the American people elected through free elections?

Tell me how much you love Bill Clinton and I won't scoff at your logic here.

15 posted on 12/29/2001 9:42:37 AM PST by Demidog
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To: Demidog
America is a great nation and is full of great people. Unfortunately its leaders have no respect for its people or its laws. Pointing this out is not showing hate for anything but the lawbreakers who do so.

Okay you have stated your position, so what is your solution? Oops I forgot, that isn't your department.

16 posted on 12/29/2001 9:42:40 AM PST by Dane
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To: Demidog
I I I I I I I I I I I I. It's all anout you, eh, Demidog?
17 posted on 12/29/2001 9:42:46 AM PST by Huck
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To: B1B_Lancer
That might be why Bush Sr. decided not to get rid of Saddam (He was a former CIA director you know...he's not a dumbass).
18 posted on 12/29/2001 9:43:11 AM PST by College Repub
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To: Demidog
[Flying passenger jets into the WTC seems like "insane Foreign policy" to me.]

I agree with this.

Not reflected in the screed.

19 posted on 12/29/2001 9:43:47 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: anniegetyourgun
So you like the American people, but hate the American people the American people elected through free elections?

Free elections? Free elections?!

Your joking, right? How about this free election?

The people of the great state of California held a free election several years ago and voted 3 to 1 in favor of proposition 187 which would have put a stop to much of the tax paid support of criminal illegal aliens. After we won the *free* election the federal government stepped in and burned our ballots and declared our election unconstitutional.

Our borders and immigration policies are a complete national disgrace, and now a total national security nightmare.

20 posted on 12/29/2001 9:45:36 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: sinkspur
Occam's razor says that the Duke died as a result of tobacco use.

My Grandfather is 97, still drives and smoked for over 50 years, and does not have cancer. The fact that a very high proportion of those who worked on films made in the area in question died from cancer puts Occam's razor at odds with your view.

I certainly do not blame you for what occurred there. I blame the morons who were more interested in getting the "job done" and covering their political butts at the expense of a few soldiers and other citizens who were "expendable."

21 posted on 12/29/2001 9:46:11 AM PST by Demidog
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To: Roscoe
Not reflected in the screed.

Says you.

22 posted on 12/29/2001 9:47:11 AM PST by Demidog
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To: Joe Hadenuf
After we won the *free* election the federal government stepped in and burned our ballots and declared our election unconstitutional

Wrong that was the very liberal ninth circuit court based in San Francisco.

23 posted on 12/29/2001 9:47:17 AM PST by Dane
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To: Dane
Trust me, it was the feds.
24 posted on 12/29/2001 9:48:02 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Demidog
He was the second worst president we've ever had and the people elected him in a legitimate process outlined in our governing documents. But if you don't like those documents, there is a means to peaceably change them. Short of that, there is revolution or leaving the country.
25 posted on 12/29/2001 9:48:33 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: Dane
Glad to see the "Jack Booted Thugs" supporter showed up.
26 posted on 12/29/2001 9:48:37 AM PST by steve50
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Trust me, it was the feds

No it was ninth circuit court.

27 posted on 12/29/2001 9:49:47 AM PST by Dane
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To: Demidog
Well an article that questions creationism keeps getting deleted. Is FR being any better than VH-1? And no I'm not a disruptor.
28 posted on 12/29/2001 9:50:24 AM PST by Bogey78O
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To: anniegetyourgun
Since when did I say I didn't support the founding documents? What are you trying to say?
29 posted on 12/29/2001 9:50:28 AM PST by Demidog
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To: Dane
I don't give a hoot what you call it. I know what happened and who did it.
30 posted on 12/29/2001 9:51:07 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Demidog
"I love my country but I don't trust my government."

Some people can't handle that concept, and think only in term of either/or.

31 posted on 12/29/2001 9:51:08 AM PST by KirklandJunction
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To: Dane
Is the 9th circuit a part of the Federal government or not?
32 posted on 12/29/2001 9:51:25 AM PST by Demidog
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To: steve50
Glad to see the "Jack Booted Thugs" supporter showed up.

Yawn, page 50 of the Libertarian handbook. When in trouble call somebody(the growing old cliche) "Jack Booted Thug".

33 posted on 12/29/2001 9:52:03 AM PST by Dane
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To: KirklandJunction
"You're either for us or against us."
34 posted on 12/29/2001 9:52:15 AM PST by Demidog
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To: Demidog
Interesting read. One important comment:

"The fact is, we only know what the terrorists claim. Not that it matters much. The opinions of mass murderers are not that important. Clearly however, this is not what any of the terrorists are saying. What they are saying is that they believe themselves to be oppressed by our foreign intervention."

When the terrorists are speaking to the West of course they are going to want us to be sympathetic to them. But when they speak amongst themselves and think no one is watching they say "we must kill the Infidels until they swear allegiance to Allah" (This was part of the Bin Laden tape recently released, I can give you a link if you want).

You certainly have a right to your opinion, but here's my problem with your point of view: Do you think that if we did everything the terrorists asked, if we left Saudi Arabia, stopped the sanctions against Iraq, stopped aiding Israel, do you think Bin Laden would just give up? Bin Laden would just say "well the Americans have complied with my every wish, they are no longer the great Satan, I have no need for terrorism any more, maybe I will try my hand at becoming a basketball player"? I'm exaggerating, but you get the point, these people are evil murdering terrorists who will hate us no matter what we do. No amount of appeasing them will change things.
35 posted on 12/29/2001 9:52:27 AM PST by Michael2001
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To: Demidog
Last I checked it was.
36 posted on 12/29/2001 9:53:10 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Demidog
I am an America Firster. If that is racist or insensitive...see if I care. REPUBLIC YES! EMPIRE NO!
37 posted on 12/29/2001 9:53:39 AM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: Demidog
"I for one, am not willing to lose a single American for the cynical goal of sub-dollar-a-gallon fuel for my SUV. "

Then honor demands that you give up your SUV and ride in a Yugo.

38 posted on 12/29/2001 9:54:33 AM PST by gatex
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Demidog
Interesting reading and some interesting points related to several issues we are all dealing with currently. Good post DemiDog.
40 posted on 12/29/2001 9:54:57 AM PST by cascademountaineer
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To: Demidog
Is the 9th circuit a part of the Federal government or not?

It's an independent branch of the federal govt. I thought you a "know all, be all" devotee of the Constitution, would know that.

Thomas Jefferson is going to be very cross with you for that "faux pas" the next channeling session you and other Libertarians have with him, IMHO.

41 posted on 12/29/2001 9:56:15 AM PST by Dane
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To: Dane
Where do I get a copy of this handbook?
42 posted on 12/29/2001 9:56:31 AM PST by JakeWyld
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To: Demidog
Your post was interesting and easy to read.

I've recently come to many of the same conclusions.

43 posted on 12/29/2001 9:57:39 AM PST by willa
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To: tex-oma
Excellent essay, Dog. I'm 100% percent behind you

Ah the Libertarian goosestepping has begun in earnest.

44 posted on 12/29/2001 9:58:21 AM PST by Dane
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To: Demidog
I wish I knew why.

Because it is easier for most people to throw rocks at you than look at themselves in the mirror.

Throwing out that label helps dismiss any words of reason one might offer. For them, it beats actually thinking.

45 posted on 12/29/2001 9:58:45 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Michael2001
Actually I am not concerned so much with bin Laden "giving up."

I think that given the fredom to deal with their own problems, a majority of the people in that region would denounce bin Laden. The problem is that much of what he says resonates with those who are legitimately concerned and affected by our meddling.

We are in essence providing bin Laden with his audience.

There is nothing legitimate about what he says. When you talk about the religious aspect of what they say to each other, it is far less religious than a method of propaganda that we helped to develop when we were breeding anti-Soviet forces back in Carter's administration.

Between the CIA and ISI, religious schools were developed in order to use such religious rhetoric to our "advantage."

Now the product of this indoctrination is coming back to haunt us. None of this is a reflection on the American people other than the fact that perhaps the majority doesn't realize the consequences of such foreign policies and still support them by and large.

46 posted on 12/29/2001 9:59:18 AM PST by Demidog
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To: JakeWyld
Where do I get a copy of this handbook?

At the Libertarian channeling sessions with Thomas Jefferson.

47 posted on 12/29/2001 9:59:40 AM PST by Dane
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Dane
The fact that is an independent branch of the federal government is not that spectacular a point. It is in fact a part of the federal government.
49 posted on 12/29/2001 10:00:53 AM PST by Demidog
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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