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Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation??
Ask Father Murray Watson ^ | Father Murray

Posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:38 PM PST by Theresa

There is considerable confusion about the Catholic teaching of salvation. I found this on the internet. It was written by a former Presbyterian who became Catholic as an adult. It should be easy to understand he explains the docterine very well. .........

The phrase (in Latin, "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" or "Outside the Church there is no salvation") is a very ancient one, going back to the very early days of Christianity. It was originally meant to affirm the necessity of baptism and Christian faith at a time when

(a) A number of Christians were being tempted under torture to renounce their faith and deny Christ. (He's talking about the Roman Empire and Nero's persecution of Christians, throwing them to lions and such.) (b) Large groups of Christians were being led into "pseudo-Christian" cult-type groups, which were actually just a front for pagan philosophy and religion. (Such as the cult of Mithras which I think was practiced around the time after Jesus died.)

In response, bishops repeated that, if a person were to be aware of the meaning of Christ and then freely deny him or reject him, they had essentially turned away from God and the salvation he offers.

As Christians, we believe that we are saved only through Jesus. As St. Peter reminds his audience in Acts 4:12: "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved." In most cases, this means that we believe baptism in water, in the name of the Trinity, is the fundamental requirement for salvation.

However, even from the beginning, the great Christian writer and teacher St. Augustine said that the salvation imparted through baptism can also be imparted through other means: specifically, through the "baptism of blood" (a non-Christian who dies defending Christian beliefs or holy places) and "the baptism of desire" (a non-Christian who has expressed a firm desire to become a Christian, and who shows all the signs of living a Christian life, but who dies before baptism). In both of those cases, the Church has always recognized that the Holy Spirit leads people to God in ways which we cannot always explain or document.

God is able to save anyone he chooses. We trust that he often does this is ways that are not obvious to us, within the hearts of individuals who are sincerely seeking the truth. Otherwise, it would imply that all of humanity was excluded from salvation before Christ came, and that much of humanity (which has not had the opportunity to hear the Christian message until recently) was doomed to be eternally separated from God. This would imply a very cruel and elitist God. Our belief as Christians and Catholics is that God desires the salvation of all people … even those who are not Christian. How he achieves that, however, is a mystery. But we know that our God is a loving God who would not allow people to suffer on account of an ignorance that they were not responsible for.

The Church teaches that baptism, faith, and a life lived in Christ are necessary for salvation. However, Vatican II also taught that, within every human heart, God places the law of conscience. Everybody has a deep sense of right and wrong which ultimately comes from God, and which will lead people to God if they attempt to follow their conscience faithfully. Because Jesus is God, those who move in the direction of God (even non-Christians) are ultimately moving in the direction of Jesus. And if they are moving in the direction of Jesus and His truth, ultimately they are expressing a desire for the salvation that God gives. The Church teaches that, while it is certainly easier to receive salvation as a Christian, it is not impossible to receive salvation in other religions.

This is a challenging situation: on one hand, we must be respectful of the good things to be found in other faiths, and encourage people to live their faiths with sincerity and love.

On the other hand, this does not mean that all religions are the same. We believe that Christ is the ultimate revealing of God to the world, and that the more we know about his message, the greater the chance that we will accept his offer and be saved. We must therefore continue to preach the message of the Gospel, and encourage interested non-Catholics to examine the claims of our faith, without in any way coercing or intimidating them.

Father Feeney was an American priest who, back in the 1940s, taught that if a person was not a Roman Catholic, they were condemned to hell. This has never been the accepted teaching of Catholicism, and Father Feeney was reprimanded by the Vatican for his mistaken understanding.

Nevertheless, there are groups which continue to hold to this strict interpretation, even after the Pope and bishops have specifically rejected it.

The phrase "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" teaches us that salvation is only through Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life. But God is able to save whomever he pleases, whether they are baptized in the Roman Catholic Church or not.

It is important to remember that "the Church" in this phrase does not refer exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church. Salvation is a great gift, and God is a loving Father who wants all of his children to receive it. How he works this out, however, we will only understand in heaven. That is why, whenever we quote "Outside the Church, there is no salvation", we should also remember that "God is in no way bound by the sacraments."

Until then, we continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord (evangelization) and engage in respectful dialogue with followers of other religions, to discover the truths that God had revealed to them to guide them toward salvation, and to share with them the truth as we have discovered it in Christ.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
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1 posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:39 PM PST by Theresa
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To: Theresa
It is important to remember that "the Church" in this phrase does not refer exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church. ....but rather it refers to the catholic (lower case) church.
2 posted on 01/02/2002 1:21:35 PM PST by rface
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To: Theresa
Sorry any Christians I've ever met with a skeric of delegated authority claim descendency from the apostle Mark not Peter
3 posted on 01/02/2002 1:22:32 PM PST by Governor StrangeReno
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To: rface
"By grace you are saved through faith; it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8)

One is not saved through the church, but saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Elsewhere, the apostles teach that once one has accepted Christ, they are automatically added to the universal church of Jesus Christ (not a visible organization, but the invisible entity known as the Body of Christ). Hence, it is impossible to become saved, and not also become a member of the universal Body of Christ.

However, it is possible to attend a church building on Sundays, or whenever, even join many church organizations, and not be saved.

4 posted on 01/02/2002 1:26:17 PM PST by My2Cents
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To: rface
Hey, rface, THANK YOU. I've known for a long time that the Catholic church teaches that anyone who lives a good life, whatever his religion, will be saved. I've never seen it put in words as well as this article.

I've long been upset by people quoting the saying in the Catholic church that, "If you believe the Catholic church to be the true church, but do not practice it's teachings, you will not be saved." That statement is often used to imply that Catholics believe only THEY will be saved. The opposite is the truth! The rest of the statement is that if you believe that the Baptist, Methodist, etc. church is the true church then you won't be saved if you don't follow their teachings. In other words, follow your conscience and you will be saved. Simple as that.

5 posted on 01/02/2002 1:35:19 PM PST by kitkat
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To: Theresa
Father Feeney was an American priest who, back in the 1940s, taught that if a person was not a Roman Catholic, they were condemned to hell. This has never been the accepted teaching of Catholicism, and Father Feeney was reprimanded by the Vatican for his mistaken understanding.

Never thought Catholics believed this in the first place, but great to learn for sure.

It is important to remember that "the Church" in this phrase does not refer exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church. Salvation is a great gift, and God is a loving Father who wants all of his children to receive it. How he works this out, however, we will only understand in heaven. That is why, whenever we quote "Outside the Church, there is no salvation", we should also remember that "God is in no way bound by the sacraments."

Nice, clean summary. And yes, the "Church" is made up of *all* those who have found Salvation in Christ, regardless of denomination.
6 posted on 01/02/2002 1:35:38 PM PST by k2blader
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To: k2blader
Ecclesia .. the church ... the called out (from the world) body of believers.

Baptism is an ordinance and object of obedience, but not a needed part of/for salvation.

7 posted on 01/02/2002 1:44:01 PM PST by knarf
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To: Theresa
It is important to remember that "the Church" in this phrase does not refer exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church.

Father Murray, whoever he might be, should examine the document of the Church from last year Dominus Iesus is he needs help defining the Church.

Suffice it to say that the Church in this phrase is none other than the Catholic one, the only one.

SD

8 posted on 01/02/2002 1:45:25 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: kitkat
In other words, follow your conscience and you will be saved. Simple as that.

Why would Christ die for that? Pagan idol worshippers "follow their conscience." What poppycock.

SD

9 posted on 01/02/2002 1:46:30 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: kitkat
sorry, I don't agree with much of what you have said...

I've known for a long time that the Catholic church teaches that anyone who lives a good life, whatever his religion, will be saved...that is NOT the stance of Christian/Catholic Churches, by definition. Christian/Catholic churches teach that salvation is found through Christ, NOT by deeds.

Ashland, Missouri

10 posted on 01/02/2002 1:48:09 PM PST by rface
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To: Theresa
Gee, I've read 10 posts and haven't seen one of FRs many Catholic bashers yet.

I'm starting to worry that they saw a picture of the Pope over the holidays and all of their heads exploded.

11 posted on 01/02/2002 1:57:03 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: kitkat
I've known for a long time that the Catholic church teaches that anyone who lives a good life, whatever his religion, will be saved. I've never seen it put in words as well as this article.

Don't believe it. Those who stay outside of the Catholic Church due to an INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE of the Church's necessity to salvation MAY be saved.

This is not the same as you or the errant priest here put it, that "anyone who lives a good life WILL be saved. If it were so easy for people to live "good" lives, to make themselves holy, why did God bother with the whole Christ thing?

SD

12 posted on 01/02/2002 2:02:22 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Governor StrangeReno
skeric?
13 posted on 01/02/2002 2:06:47 PM PST by Jack Barbara
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To: Theresa
Total disagreement. No man comes to the father except throught the son. What you have posted implies that Muslims who worship Allah are going to heaven just because they are listening to their consciences. You could use the same arguments for cults. Sometimes, people become debased or degenerate and so their consciences are no longer attuned. But in their OWN mind, they think they are on track. As the Scriptures say, "There is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end, it leads to death." Maybe some of you good ol folk can give the scripture reference as it's slipped my mind. Amen
14 posted on 01/02/2002 2:12:49 PM PST by bookwurm
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To: Theresa
If Catholics really felt that way, they would have no choice but to hand out pamphlets, knock on doors, and scream on street corners like crazy men, as some other Christians do.
15 posted on 01/02/2002 2:13:03 PM PST by Senator Pardek
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To: SoothingDave
Now you're gettin' there ...
16 posted on 01/02/2002 2:14:27 PM PST by JmyBryan
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To: Theresa; Jerry_M
In most cases, this means that we believe baptism in water, in the name of the Trinity, is the fundamental requirement for salvation.

Yet, another thread where one could get into trouble. Nearly every sentence spouting false teaching, heresy!

17 posted on 01/02/2002 2:14:36 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: Theresa
Mother Theresa: It's alway comforting to know that there is a safe place to go in the neighborhood.! See you there.

THE NUNS IN THE HOOD

18 posted on 01/02/2002 2:18:50 PM PST by stlrocket
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To: Theresa
Until then, we continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord (evangelization) and engage in respectful dialogue with followers of other religions, to discover the truths that God had revealed to them to guide them toward salvation, and to share with them the truth as we have discovered it in Christ.

God is leading some toward salvation through other religions? This comes from a Christian? It's no wonder that the education system has become so liberal. The Christian educators can't even get salvation correct.

19 posted on 01/02/2002 2:20:07 PM PST by AlGone2001
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To: SoothingDave
"Why would Christ die for that? Pagan idol worshippers "follow their conscience." What poppycock. "

You should not be so smug. What if you had been born a Hindu? What if all your ancestors for centuries were Hindu and you loved them and respected them. What if the ties that bound you to them and to your land and culture were intertwined with Hinduism? Are you so smug as to think that just hearing the gospel once or twice could overcome all that conditioning?

20 posted on 01/02/2002 2:21:39 PM PST by Theresa
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To: Jack Barbara
Coptic
21 posted on 01/02/2002 2:22:48 PM PST by Governor StrangeReno
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To: Jack Barbara
sorry wrong question answered,'ounce' as in has a discernable halo and capable of curing people/doing things the book says can be done-but I've also met Buddhist monks with similar capabilities.
22 posted on 01/02/2002 2:25:45 PM PST by Governor StrangeReno
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To: Theresa
This is rather a confusing piece. It is not tightly written. It leaves ambiguous the fate of one who is aware of the teachings of Christ, but simply rejects his divinity, and chooses not be baptized. If this person leads a moral life, is the Catholic doctrine that we still don't know that person's fate, or that we don't know of any way such person can get to heaven, but then just because we don't know, doesn't mean there isn't a way, or as McGowan of FR said, that as long as one doesn't believe the Catholic of Christian doctrine is true, but leads a moral life, then there is not impediment to heaven.

Confusion seems to reign, for whatever reason.

23 posted on 01/02/2002 2:31:42 PM PST by Torie
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To: bookwurm
What you have posted implies that Muslims who worship Allah are going to heaven just because they are listening to their consciences.

Roman Catholics believe devout Muslims are saved.

24 posted on 01/02/2002 2:31:45 PM PST by DallasDeb
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To: Theresa
The...uh...strict constructionist mistake is sort of a legalistic tendency to think of "the Church" (the "mystical Body of Christ") exclusively in terms of the institutional apparatus of its earthly manifestation. "The Church" is wherever two or more are gathered together in the Spirit of Christ.

"Baptism by desire" just requires whatever is going on in the soul of a person (a non-Catholic, for instance) and the ministrations of God's grace. No human agent or bureaucratic administration is in control of dispensing grace. "The Church" which is present in the "salvation" of such a soul is "the Mystical Body of Christ." Ecclesiologically speaking, "the Church" should never be confused with whatever earthly institutional structure happens to be representing it. It's a reality much more than that. Quite beyond the external corporate structure of any congregation, parish, diocese, bishops' conference, etc. Clericalism is not "the Church."

There is sometimes an eschatologically hubristic tendency for individual clergymen to think that they alone are "the Church." This is wrong. Since none of us are ever present in a situation to know the condition of a soul when a person actually dies, no one living knows who is ever saved or damned. Only God does. It's great whenever very holy Christians manage to mature into wise, loving, and devout clergymen. Since this is not always the case, obviously the mystical/invisible/spiritual dimension of the Church, the communion directly between God and souls, has priority.

25 posted on 01/02/2002 2:33:05 PM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Theresa
Regradless of where you are spiritually, what are YOU doing to do about Christ?

Matt 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

WE all have to either accept Christ or to deny Him. Earthly institutions, good deeds, or intentions will NOT save anyone.

26 posted on 01/02/2002 2:33:26 PM PST by texson66
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To: Theresa
Thanks for posting the article.

Pope John Paul II, writes, at p. 198 of his book, "Crossing the Threshold":

"In fact, those who through no fault of their own are not aware of the Gospel of Christ and the Church, but who nonetheless search sincerely for God, and with the help of grace attempt to carry out His will, known through the dictates of their conscience – they too can attain eternal salvation.

"Nor will Divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who have not yet arrived at a clear knowledge and recognition of God, and who attempt, not without divine grace, to conduct a good life."

27 posted on 01/02/2002 2:36:15 PM PST by ikurrina
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To: SoothingDave
...the Catholic one, the only one.

Hm, just for clarification, are you saying that the Catholic church is the "only Church" ?

That I, as a Baptist, am not part of the "only Church" and thus am not saved ?
28 posted on 01/02/2002 2:37:53 PM PST by k2blader
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To: AlGone2001
God is leading some toward salvation through other religions? This comes from a Christian?

How does the golden rule apply here? In fact how does the golden rule apply to "Mine is the only true religion"?

29 posted on 01/02/2002 2:39:36 PM PST by Semper
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To: texson66
So you are saying that "all of humanity was excluded from salvation before Christ came, and that much of humanity (which has not had the opportunity to hear the Christian message until recently) was doomed to be eternally separated from God. This would imply a very cruel and elitist God. Our belief as Christians and Catholics is that God desires the salvation of all people … even those who are not Christian. How he achieves that, however, is a mystery. But we know that our God is a loving God who would not allow people to suffer on account of an ignorance that they were not responsible for."

An ignorance they were NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR!!!!!!! Try to understand this. It is not that hard.

30 posted on 01/02/2002 2:40:03 PM PST by Theresa
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To: bookwurm
Maybe some of you good ol folk can give the scripture reference as it's slipped my mind. Amen

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

How about 2 Timothy 4:3,4 " For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; And they shall turn away from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

31 posted on 01/02/2002 2:44:58 PM PST by Down South P.E.
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To: kitkat;ALL
That statement is often used to imply that Catholics believe only THEY will be saved.

That is exactly what they taught us in the 50's at Catholic school, and we were not allowed to have friends from those other religions.

Through the years I have learned the statement (posted by My2Cents) .below to be the truth.

One is not saved through the church, but saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

32 posted on 01/02/2002 2:51:17 PM PST by GrandMoM
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To: ikurrina
With all due respect to Pope John Paul II, if one can attain salvation through a sincere, but unenlightened, pursuit of God, particularly through good deeds, then what is the purpose of Christ's death? As others have pointed out, Jesus identified himself as "the way, the truth, and the life...NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." If there an another way to eternal life and communion with God other than through Jesus Christ, then Jesus lied about his role in the redemption of man.
33 posted on 01/02/2002 2:52:08 PM PST by My2Cents
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
"The Church" is wherever two or more are gathered together in the Spirit of Christ.

Amen to that!

34 posted on 01/02/2002 2:53:00 PM PST by My2Cents
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To: Theresa
However, Vatican II also taught that, within every human heart, God places the law of conscience. Everybody has a deep sense of right and wrong which ultimately comes from God, and which will lead people to God if they attempt to follow their conscience faithfully. Because Jesus is God, those who move in the direction of God (even non-Christians) are ultimately moving in the direction of Jesus. And if they are moving in the direction of Jesus and His truth, ultimately they are expressing a desire for the salvation that God gives. The Church teaches that, while it is certainly easier to receive salvation as a Christian, it is not impossible to receive salvation in other religions.

Can you or anyone give me a Vatican II source for that teaching?

35 posted on 01/02/2002 2:53:14 PM PST by Rum Tum Tugger
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To: SoothingDave
Suffice it to say that the Church in this phrase is none other than the Catholic one, the only one.

Does that mean it is the only one which has child molesters in its clergy?

36 posted on 01/02/2002 2:57:35 PM PST by Semper
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To: Theresa
God bless Christians.

The DNC is going to have to add Catholics to "right-wing Bible believers" in order to avoid hypocrisy or shed light on their own religious mis-understanding in the upcoming Dem. campaign to paint the Christian right as the Taliban's equivalent.

We've so thoroughly shut God out of the public debate that these grown Dems. can actually be ignorant enough to compare God's command to "love your neighbor" in the Bible that all Christians follow (even those churches where Hillary and John Edwards go to condemn Republicans during election years), with the Koran's missive from Allah to kill infidels.

Worldlings in the press should not report on non-secular matters, IMHO.

37 posted on 01/02/2002 2:57:37 PM PST by Ragtime Cowgirl
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To: My2Cents
"the way, the truth, and the life...NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME."

How do you then deal with the issue of people who never had an opportunity to know anything about Jesus? What is their status?

38 posted on 01/02/2002 3:02:13 PM PST by Rum Tum Tugger
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To: Theresa
Are you so smug as to think that just hearing the gospel once or twice could overcome all that conditioning?

Certainly, provided their heart is receptive and the Holy Spirit permits it. Don't sell the Lord short there. You would be smug to think that the Lord could not accomplish this.

39 posted on 01/02/2002 3:02:43 PM PST by Down South P.E.
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To: Theresa
Worldlings in the press should not report on non-secular matters, IMHO.

I was not referring to Father Murray here!

40 posted on 01/02/2002 3:04:28 PM PST by Ragtime Cowgirl
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To: Torie
and God is not the author of confusion is he...
41 posted on 01/02/2002 3:04:39 PM PST by Down South P.E.
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To: My2Cents
NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." If there an another way to eternal life and communion with God other than through Jesus Christ, then Jesus lied about his role in the redemption of man.

Not necessarily so. There is room for interpretation here - especially since it is a translation and therefore not absolutely exact. It might be interpreted as "No one comes to the Father.." (No one comes to an understanding of the God-Principle, the Source of our existence) "..but by me" (unless you learn and practice the lessons I have given you by my life). The truth Jesus taught by his words and actions is universal and can be found anywhere and at any time. There are Christian principles in all human religions - the golden rule for example. If these principles are explained in different terms that does not change the truth they contain.

The problem with accepting this type of explanation is that it requires an open mind, unencumbered with dogma and superstition.

42 posted on 01/02/2002 3:19:44 PM PST by Semper
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To: Theresa
Almost no one on this thread is keeping track of the elementary logical particles "and", "or", "must", "may", etc.

The situation is clear.

God MAY save some people outside the Church, such salvation will be through Jesus and we can't lay precise restrictions upon Him.

But the Church PROVIDES A PATH TO SALVATION which we are promised if we accept Jesus. There is no longer a MAY about it, because God has PROMISED it, if we accept Jesus we WILL be saved.

Many people here seem to be unable to recognize the distinctions between "none", "some" and "all". Those who pretend that Catholics are denying the need for existence of the Church are purposely interpreting "God MAY save SOME non-Christians" as "God WILL save non-Christians who live a good life etc." All that is really going on is that the Church is saying we cannot presume to say that everyone who has not explicitly accepted Jesus WILL go to hell.

"A implies B" is not the same as "not A implies not B". Just because we are ASSURED that there is salvation within the Church doesn't mean we can conclude there is salvation ONLY within the church; the most we say is that there is ASSURED salvation ONLY within the Church. ("Church" here refers to all Christians, not just Roman Catholics.)

43 posted on 01/02/2002 3:22:29 PM PST by VeritatisSplendor
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To: Semper
How does the golden rule apply here? In fact how does the golden rule apply to "Mine is the only true religion"?

Where exactly does Christ teach the "Golden Rule."

44 posted on 01/02/2002 3:25:18 PM PST by AlGone2001
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To: Down South P.E.
"Certainly, provided their heart is receptive and the Holy Spirit permits it. Don't sell the Lord short there. You would be smug to think that the Lord could not accomplish this."

Oh I agree 100% However the key phrase is "provided their heart is receptive." Why would some have hearts that are not receptive? Well here's one example. Have you read the Islamic description of hell? In their conception of hell demons tear the skin off your body. It grows back and the demons tear it off again. This goes on for all eternity and each time the skin is peeled off, you suffer more. Islam teaches that to turn away from Islam means you will go to hell. So the prospect of this horrible, horrible punishment might keep a person's heart from being receptive. Some people are very impressionable. And such a person who has had this fear ingrained in them, is sort of brainwashed. Part of their free will has been tampered with and so their hearts are not receptive. And it's not really their fault.

I do not think we can say for certain that God automatically comes in a fixes this disturbed pattern and makes the person receptive to grace. I think he does it sometimes and sometimes not. Sometimes children die before they are old enough to understand the gospel and accept it. God lets that happen and we don't know why but we believe he is merciful and does not send that child to hell.

45 posted on 01/02/2002 3:41:19 PM PST by Theresa
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To: AlGone2001
Where exactly does Christ teach the "Golden Rule."

Most probably referencing Matthew 7:12 which says:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law of the prophets.

What is also interesting is Christ's follow up versus: 13-15:

Enter in at the straight gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

46 posted on 01/02/2002 3:44:13 PM PST by Down South P.E.
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To: DallasDeb
"Roman Catholics believe devout Muslims are saved."

If that is true, then, sorry, but those Roman Catholics are wrong. I don't think it is true, however. My mother and father are both very devout RC's and I know that they don't believe that devout Muslims are saved. Muslims do not believe in salvation through Jesus Christ (who by His death paid the penalty for our sins that we could never pay) so to believe that they are saved by being devout Muslims is wrong doctrine. The Bible (God's Word) is very clear on that.

Catholicism does not teach the same doctrine of salvation that most Protestants believe in.

"Though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed...a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ...for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galations 1:8, 2:16

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Compare and contrast that with the Roman Catholic Church's teaching:

"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law [of the Roman Catholic Church] are not necessary for salvation but...that without them...men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification...let him be anathema." Council of Trent, 7, General, 4

God Himself declares that it is by faith alone, yet the Catholic Church feels they can countermand God.

But one of the many reasons I left the Catholic church.

47 posted on 01/02/2002 3:46:34 PM PST by Pablo64
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To: Down South P.E.
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law of the prophets.

Thanks-but really, that is not the context of my disagreement. My disagreement is where some can attribute salvation to a religion outside of Christ, as the poster was implying. In fact, his personal profile says basically that in a nutshell. read it and then youl'll see that he is trying to say that salvation does not have to come through Christ.

And... it's not called the golden rule. It is a general statement that if you love God and man, you will refain from breaking any of the commandments. All the commandments did was tell us that God wanted us to love Him and our fellow man. That doesn't mean that we have to accept what they say as gospel-when it isn't.

There is abig difference between loving your neighbor, and believing his lies.

48 posted on 01/02/2002 3:54:31 PM PST by AlGone2001
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To: Theresa
"...With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Matthew 19:26

"...I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Romans 9:15

49 posted on 01/02/2002 4:00:05 PM PST by Down South P.E.
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To: Theresa
I agree mostly with what you say. He is a soverign God, and how He deals with those cases you mention is not revealed in scripture. Before Christ, Abraham was justified by faith alone. Now that Jesus has paid for all of our sins, Jesus is still a decision that must be made once a person has heard the Good News. We, who have heard the Good News and accepted Christ, have a new responsibility: to spread the Good News to the corners of the earth. Notice I said spread the Good News. Individuals MUST still decide if they would accept God's gift of salvation through His Son, Jesus.
50 posted on 01/02/2002 4:09:25 PM PST by texson66
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